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Old 08-02-2004, 04:50 AM   #26
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Jeremy Gelman wrote:
Have any of you trained intensively against high kicks? Whado you do in terms of aikido if someone skilled is kicking at your head or neck? Like those guys in tae kwon do....

I've never been taught how to do aikido against high kicks so do any of you have anything to say on this matter?

I do know that high kicking is supposed to be very impractical in most cases. Bruce Lee said that "A kick to the head is like a punch to the foot". Still, what if...

I've seen Steven Seagal do some aikido stuff against kicks but it isn't clear to me what to do!
I think that the kicking defenses are somewhat over blown. We practice against kicks in hamni handachi and in tachi waza using the standard aikido defenses. If a person can't do those, more elaborate defenses won't do much good. I trained for six months (in aikido) with a Tai kuan do instructor of 45 years (8th dan). He was learning Aikido because he said that as he observed other martial artists, he lacked confidence when measuring his art against theirs. He had his own school in the oriental district here in Houston and had successfully sustained many challenges from other martial artists in his school. I mention that to point out that he was no sissy. He was just honest. My instructors have told me that in a real duel, to leave your feet is deadly if you have a competent martial artist in front of you. I suggest that the next time you encounter someone coming at you with a high kick, go under him as fast as you can with an aiki-nage toward the leg he is standing or jumping on. I think that will solve any potential problem quickly.
Best,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 08-03-2004, 10:12 AM   #27
Chris Bull
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

I think the previous posts have answered your question well enough, but personally speaking I'd go for a single leg take-down on the remaining leg, but I suppose that it's debatable as to whether or not that is Aikido.

Regardless, I think you should be more concerned with how to deal with the less telegraphed lower kicks that Muay Thai utilises so well, or knees to the groin/stomach.

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 08-03-2004, 07:33 PM   #28
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Jeremy Gelman wrote:
Have any of you trained intensively against high kicks? Whado you do in terms of aikido if someone skilled is kicking at your head or neck? Like those guys in tae kwon do....

I've never been taught how to do aikido against high kicks so do any of you have anything to say on this matter?

I do know that high kicking is supposed to be very impractical in most cases. Bruce Lee said that "A kick to the head is like a punch to the foot". Still, what if...

I've seen Steven Seagal do some aikido stuff against kicks but it isn't clear to me what to do!
absolutely aikido has kicking and to the head BUTyou should never look for kicks ,only take the perfect one if it happens .you should dwell in an ikyo but kicks are among the least perfect for long term.
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Old 08-05-2004, 03:19 AM   #29
Michael Meister
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
My instructors have told me that in a real duel, to leave your feet is deadly if you have a competent martial artist in front of you. I suggest that the next time you encounter someone coming at you with a high kick, go under him as fast as you can with an aiki-nage toward the leg he is standing or jumping on. I think that will solve any potential problem quickly.
Best,
I don't realy have experience with Aikido versus kicking techniques (we did once son ikkyos and the like, but on the other hand I'm only 4th Kyu), but I do have some friends training tae kwon do. Even they say, that high kicks are only of interest in competition, but not of much use in the real world. If you're kicking high, you have to be very fast and succesful, or your opponent will have the upper hand.

As you mentioned hamni handachi waza in your post, I think this would be a postion were kicks to the head might have quite some chance of succes, though from a technical point of you this would be rather middle height or lower kicks?
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Old 08-10-2004, 04:05 PM   #30
Robert Cheshire
 
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

I have posted a picture in the images gallery of one possibility of defense from a kick. Another good defense is Do Gaeshi (that's what we call it in Yoseikan - not sure if it goes by a different name in other styles). You go to the outside of the kick/body catch under the leg and lift up and pivot. You can then catch the leg as they fall and do a leg pin or a muscle compression.

Robert Cheshire
Yoseikan Budo/Aikido
www.yoseikanbudo.us
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Old 08-19-2004, 10:51 AM   #31
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Benjamin Lu wrote:
.... IMHO, there is a serious dearth of practice/techniques against kicks in aikido and I feel that this is a serious gap in aikido repertoire. Again, this is is just my opinion ....
On the one hand, you have a good point. OTOH, AFAIK, western boxing doesn't have any kicks at all, and no one criticizes boxing for that, or wonders how boxers would deal with a high kicker.

And now that I think about it, in 19 years of doing shotokan karate, shito-ryu karate, Kali, Wing Chun, and now Serak, I've never done defenses against high kicks! (Not even in the Shotokan class, taught by someone who also held a TKD instructorship.)

So Aikido doesn't have kicks.

Big fat hairy deal.
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:44 AM   #32
thomas_dixon
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Depending on the type of kick you could just avoid them and let em wear their selves out with the amount of energy it take to perform such powerful and high kicks....
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Old 09-08-2004, 08:10 AM   #33
kironin
 
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Jeremy Gelman wrote:
I've never been taught how to do aikido against high kicks so do any of you have anything to say on this matter?

Traditional karate doesn't contain high kicks above the waist for a good reason. Even a smart TKD stylist would never deliver a high kick without first making a connection with a few punches to daze you first.

A high kick to the head is like kirioroshi with the sword (the big powerful downward cut). A finishing off move after you have already done other faster moves to off balance your opponent.

Since some of my students are proficient black belts in karate, we do train a bit to deal with someone dumb enough to throw a high kick first. They love that.

But given that we like to assume that the uke is not so dumb, we spend more time on dealing with various punches or combinations of things.

YMMV

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Old 09-08-2004, 08:30 AM   #34
kironin
 
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote:
Just to simulate the problem I know that Hans Goto did some work with another local MA teacher and they put together a program on kicking. They even got themselves written up in Aikido Journal and according to Hans Goto they didn't get any interest from the aikido world.
was it an article ? it's not online nor is he an author listed on the site.

perhaps there is a different reason - those teachers with an interest already had done their own explorations and research if their style/organization didn't include enough training in this area to satisfy them.

A lot of the standard stuff is pretty applicable, so it's not exactly rocket science. Just takes an interest in training and being adaptable and having awareness to not leaving openings for uke to exploit.


p.s.
and to add to my previous post, I am more concerned with quick low kicks. That has been tougher to have much from the aikido to be useful to deal with. However I have been very happy with training methods from Systema for that situation, in terms of being quite in sync with aikido and being quite effective. Being in sync with aikido, students pick it up pretty easily after a few training sessions because it builds on what they know.

Last edited by kironin : 09-08-2004 at 08:37 AM.

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Old 09-08-2004, 08:36 AM   #35
Dazzler
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
So Aikido doesn't have kicks.

Big fat hairy deal.
I like this immensely!

Dealing with kicks...off line and irimi. Not gonna suggest a fixed technique because there are no fixed techniques, just tools to develop irimi and atemi.

Regards

D
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Old 09-08-2004, 03:46 PM   #36
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote:
I like this immensely!
Thanks. But honestly, you ever see a boxing coach have to defend the fact that Western boxing doesn't have kicks? I could be wrong, but I think it's unlikely. So it doesn't bug me that Aikido doesn't have kicks. It is what it is and does what it does and no one should be shy about it or defend it.

Quote:
Dealing with kicks...off line and irimi. Not gonna suggest a fixed technique because there are no fixed techniques, just tools to develop irimi and atemi.

Regards

D
Yes, and a round kick is harder to get away from than a straight front kick. If it's a Thai kick, don't try and block it with your arm; it'll get broken. If anything, go for the ura line like a bat out of h-e-double-toothpicks; you'd also want to look into what Jun Fan/JKD people call "cutting the line," although not being a JFJKD person myself, I can't explain it all that well. (Is there a Sifu in the house?) Evasion is the best idea, and Aikido knows how to do that. Get both hands up and/or apply atemi. And then find whatever lock or throw you can.

Just my 2p.

With Respect ....

Mas Mike

Last edited by CNYMike : 09-08-2004 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 09-08-2004, 06:59 PM   #37
BKimpel
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

These are some of my favorite Aikido techniques against kicks.

yokogeri_kekomi.jpg attachment:
Can be applied against yoko-kekomi (side thrust), ushiro-kekomi (back thrust) or gyaku-mawashi-geri (reverse (or back) roundhouse kick).
The trick is (as said by many others) get off the line with a little step forward and to the side. And as you probably have heard when asking your sensei about kicks it actually IS the same as the hand technique (in this case hiji-jime to a punch).
The nice thing about this technique is that you go with the knee and although the fall is not pleasant at all (thus why we don't practice every day in the dojo), it is nicer than many that wrench the knee.

mawashigeri.jpg attachment:
Almost kaitennage (the shortened version against a punch where you just wrap the arm and bring uke down -- no soto or mawari uchi movement). The same opening (get off the line), but a hip twist is all it takes to bring him down on his face (again not a pleasant fall).
Also a not about these two -- the legs a often very much less flexible than the arm VERY little stretch is necessary to make uke slap the mat so pay attention! Inflexible ukes will often be in pain as soon as you achieve the pin (wrap your leg around ukes)…so be nice

maegeri.jpg attachment:
This is aiki-otoshi same as any other techniques (punch, shomen-uchi, whatever).
The pin is exceptionally effective against opponents that are shorter than you because you can stick the foot under your armpit then pin -- mommy! This pin is against the knee and the pressure is like nikkyo with your center. Also notice the other foot is placed on the inside/topside of uke's other knee -- that's to make sure uke doesn't think about raising his/her other foot towards the general groin location.

Lots more (yonkyo to the shin is by far the most painful -- as confirmed recently), but these are nice and easy -- both do do and on uke's knees. Not so easy on uke's face though if they don't land nicely so do the last part a little slower eh!
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Bruce Kimpel
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Old 09-11-2004, 03:12 PM   #38
Aikidoiain
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Hi Jeremy,

Drop down and strike the other leg with a kick to the knee or a groin strike or a recumbant ankle throw (which I think someone already mentioned).

Alternatively, just keep moving till they get tired - then go home and watch a good movie!

Iain.
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Old 09-11-2004, 03:23 PM   #39
Aikidoiain
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Me again.

I know you asked for Aikido methods, so, before anyone pulls me up about my reply I was describing Aiki-Jujitsu techniques.

Aikido comes from that anyway.

Thanks.
Iain.
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Old 10-13-2004, 10:30 AM   #40
omerbey
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

once I have encountered such a thing and my reflexive response was dropping down a little and walking. then I grabbed the kicking leg... afterwards, options... options...

effective high kicking probably requires lots of training, and speed.
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Old 10-13-2004, 11:08 AM   #41
ecollander
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Michael Meister wrote:
I don't realy have experience with Aikido versus kicking techniques (we did once son ikkyos and the like, but on the other hand I'm only 4th Kyu), but I do have some friends training tae kwon do. Even they say, that high kicks are only of interest in competition, but not of much use in the real world. If you're kicking high, you have to be very fast and succesful, or your opponent will have the upper hand.
I have to agree. I studied TKD for over 8 years and I would never use a high kick in a real situation. The high kicks and jumping kicks in TKD were developed by Koreans to fight against horse-mounted samurai invaders/occupiers from Japan, simply to knock them off their horse. Once on the ground, the low kicks to thigh/knee/stomach/groin were applied with devastating results. The high kicks are still part of TKD training for competition and because it's safe to say that if you can kick effectively up high, you can kick even more effectively down low.
Also, kicks require proper distance. Most people will react to a kick by backing away, which is exactly what the TKDer wants, but if you're trained enough, it's just as easy to move inside the kick and then apply whatever aikido techniques are most appropriate. This requires very fast reaction, and perhaps some anticipation. Trying to block a good kick will just lead to injury (on the blocker's part).
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Old 10-13-2004, 11:14 AM   #42
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

I used to kick high back in the day. Since I have been studying aikido, I have personally come to he conclusion that it is hard to walk/move and kick at the same time!!

Seriously, while I do find a use occassionally for a high kick, usually against a less experienced opponent, I have found that I rarely kick above the waist because high kicks are too committed. However, I stop at ruling kicks out because they are still tactically effective.

I think there is much merit at training in a classical karate/tae kwon do style to learn good kicking skills.

Defending against them is no different than strikes, I think many times it is easier, remember, your opponent cannot move when kicking.

I have found sometimes that because some dojos maynot do much kicking, that aikidoka are sometimes taken aback by a kick and caught off guard. Other than that, no big deal!
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Old 10-13-2004, 11:28 AM   #43
omerbey
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

what I meant was walking forward. Towards the crotch area. In case it was not clear.
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Old 10-13-2004, 05:02 PM   #44
willy_lee
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Quote:
Eric Collander wrote:
The high kicks and jumping kicks in TKD were developed by Koreans to fight against horse-mounted samurai invaders/occupiers from Japan, simply to knock them off their horse.
Many people find this extremely unlikely.

As this is an old thread I feel I can safely assume that no-one will care if it goes off-topic.

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
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Old 10-13-2004, 10:39 PM   #45
Raziel
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Re: Aikido against very high kicking (like in tae kwon do)

Yesterday I was trainning with my senior for close combat in our aikido class (lol aikido sparing !?!?), we simply do any puncing and kicking to knock each other off but rarely got a change to do aikido technique on each other since we both know it well and avoid it before another can do. During the trainning, I found that a high kick is extreme dangerous to myself, while I d a high kick, I create a very big opening to my oponent and an irimi from him always knock me off if I do high kick. Beside, a back-swing kick is dangerous too, an irimi tenkan (or we call it 'mist step') a dodge this kick very well.

I found it's very challenge to 'fight' with someone who know aikido as well, espeacially those who do better than you in aikido. It's very good experience in trainning !!
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