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Old 05-13-2004, 11:25 AM   #1
"Anonymous"
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Presence upsets my ki

Hi this is a strange one but I feel I need some advise on the
subject as my future aikido depends on it.My dodo is a good one yet there are two nidan's who seem to upset my ki no matter what I try. The one seems to be unfriendly and arrogant
the other seems friendly yet his presence just seems to make my technique fall apart, whenever I train with either I feel frightened to take hold of them, I should change fightened to a better word but that is the easiest to understand. The second nidan the friendly one is at class more than the first arrogant one. As I said it is stressing me as when ever I train with the shodan's or sandan I feel confident and able to do the required technique. Yet when ever the nidans are in front I just loose it.

Any advice on this would be warmly welcomed
Regards Andrew
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Old 05-14-2004, 03:30 PM   #2
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

That's nidans for you!

Some people just do make your technique fall apart.. until you decide not to give them that power anymore. It may take a few tries but eventually you'll be able to train with them just like anybody else if you really set your mind to it.

Try a bit of visualization - see yourself sucessfully throwing them around, keep practising this thought often, then try it in the real world. It works.

Good luck!

Ruth
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Old 05-14-2004, 03:56 PM   #3
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Andrew, stop whining and practice. Many times the people that affect you this way turn out to be some of your best teachers...

Gambatte!

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 05-14-2004, 04:01 PM   #4
John Boswell
 
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Andrew,

It is my opinion that you are the one enabling these two to have power over you. What you say seems to be a matter of perception on your part. Are they rude and egotistical? Do they flaunt their power and ability around the dojo? Even if they do... big deal.

Train... for yourself.

Quit focusing on what these two make you feel and concentrate on the technique. If you can't, then you're doing something else... not the technique.

Practice, practice and more practice is the only thing that will help build and instill the confidence you need to be comfortable in your own shell. Instead of dreading having to deal with these guys, try looking forward to it. It is yet another opportunity to confront and survive that which you THINIK has power, but in reality is not hurting you in the least.

Think about it.

Good luck.

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Old 05-14-2004, 11:49 PM   #5
Infamousapa
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

I agree with Chuck Clark,no offence but quit your naggin.Do you want your training spoon food to you.And why do they affect you ki,because do not easy on you,Or is it because they dont let you do the move as easy as the regulars in the class..Even though Aikido is the art of peace dont be so soft.NO OFFENCE
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Old 05-15-2004, 08:03 AM   #6
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Three things that have helped me in similar situations:

(1) Remember that your job as nage is not to throw uke, it's to learn the technique. So you aren't failing if you don't throw uke; you're only failing if you can't learn anything from the experience. (My dojo says that a senior who blocks your throw in a way you can't yet learn from is out of line.) If you get hung up on needing to make it succeed every time, this takes energy away from learning.

(2) If your dojo allows talking on the mat, enlist partner in figuring out why the throw isn't working. Often uke can tell even better than sensei because he's directly feeling the energy. And partner may be less intimidating if you know he's trying to help you figure it out.

(3) If the fundamental problem is that uke is "taking your mind", try to figure out how that happens and what you can do about it. I find one of my sensei peculiarly intimidating, and often mess up throws I thought I knew when I have to do them with her. I've found that looking through her rather than directly at her, and concentrating on assertively projecting ki toward her from the very first movement, help a lot. But I suspect it will be a while before I can throw her as confidently as I throw other partners, because my gut just thinks she's scary. This is a great training opportunity...if someone were to attack me on the street I'd probably be scared of them, so I'd better know how to cope.

Mary Kaye
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Old 05-15-2004, 02:06 PM   #7
"anonymous"
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Thanks to everyone who has replied especially Ruth, Mary and John, It seems that you still have a beginners mind unlike
Chuck and Tony Sapa who must be really proud of themselves being big and powerfull and well I can do it so everyone can do it attitude. No offence guys but I was asking for advice not a telling off. I should have changed frightened to intimitated or something but I have no problem moving anyone in the dojo it's just my co-ordination and eveything falls apart when I face the nidans. I guess I will just have to take your advices and deal with the situation.

Thanks again everyone Andrew
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Old 05-15-2004, 02:55 PM   #8
Noel
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Look Andrew, what Chuck and Tony are saying is good advice. Some of the people I've learned the most from scared the living, well-, snot out of me when I first started.

You're uncomfortable around them for a reason, and you might as well figure out why. After all, some people are like that in real life. You don't get to pick all of the people you interact with in regular life (job, school, etc.), and the dojo trains you to deal with life. Sometimes, you just have to figure out how to make the best of a situation. I've learned the hard way, that sometimes by avoiding certain people or situations, I've missed out on a lot of valuable stuff that, in hindsight, would have been nice to know.

My cent-and-a-half,
-Noel
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Old 05-15-2004, 03:20 PM   #9
"anonymous"
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Thanks Noel but I am not putting Chuck or tony's Advice down in any way what they are saying is correct but they could have did in a better way. I was after all asking for advice.
Again you have miss-read the post I put the word frightened in but it was definately the wrong word. I am not frightened by them but it just seems to be there presence or something that makes me feel uneasy. I learned a long time ago that fear is a mind killer and I fear no man. So I will just go with an open mind and do my best.

Thanks again everyone for your input
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Old 05-15-2004, 07:05 PM   #10
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

It is not a bad thing to seek advice from an Internet discussion forum, but the best person to seek advice from is your own teacher. After all, he/she sees you when you practise; the members here do not know you beyond what you write—and all have given you their advice based on the information you have given.

Presumably your instructor has the most senior rank in the dojo, might well have encountered uncooperative junior yudansha, and should also have figured out how to deal with them.

Or are there reasons why you feel you cannot talk to your instructor...?

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-15-2004, 10:56 PM   #11
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Quote:
Hi this is a strange one but I feel I need some advise on the
subject as my future aikido depends on it.My dodo is a good one yet there are two nidan's who seem to upset my ki no matter what I try. The one seems to be unfriendly and arrogant
the other seems friendly yet his presence just seems to make my technique fall apart, whenever I train with either I feel frightened to take hold of them, I should change fightened to a better word but that is the easiest to understand. The second nidan the friendly one is at class more than the first arrogant one. As I said it is stressing me as when ever I train with the shodan's or sandan I feel confident and able to do the required technique. Yet when ever the nidans are in front I just loose it.

Any advice on this would be warmly welcomed
Regards Andrew
Well, I guess you know what you need to work on... This is a martial art. You have to figure that if two people who clearly are not out to get you in any serious way can take your center so easily, then what's going to happen when you run up against stranger who really wants to hurt you?

You are getting all the information you need but you have to be willing to take a look at it. Where is this fear coming from? Its cause almost certainly isn't directly anything happening at the dojo, it's just bringing up something which was there already. You need to look at it, understand it, then let go of it. Training is partly about developing that warrior spirit that won't allow anyone to take your center this way.

Also, there are lots of different manifestations of fear. This is one of them. The "I fear no man" pose isn't goingto help you get past this.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 05-15-2004 at 11:00 PM.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 05-16-2004, 01:46 AM   #12
PeterR
 
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
It is not a bad thing to seek advice from an Internet discussion forum, but the best person to seek advice from is your own teacher. After all, he/she sees you when you practise; the members here do not know you beyond what you write—and all have given you their advice based on the information you have given.

Presumably your instructor has the most senior rank in the dojo, might well have encountered uncooperative junior yudansha, and should also have figured out how to deal with them.

Or are there reasons why you feel you cannot talk to your instructor...?
To be fair Peter - maybe the person just wants to sound out and if he did talk to his teacher he might feel he was complaining directly about this person.

So Anony - what Chuck and Tony said but less direct. Actually what George said.

By the way Peter if you have any more students like that to send my way please do. It was a pleasure.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-16-2004, 07:01 AM   #13
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Quote:
Hi this is a strange one but I feel I need some advise on the
subject as my future aikido depends on it.
Regards Andrew
Hello Peter,

I thought I was being quite fair, both to the poster and the members who replied and gave advice. What struck me was the part of the post I quoted above, from which I inferred that Andrew was considering quitting aikido. Perhaps I read into it more than was there, but if I were his instructor, I would want to know something like this. Otherwise, I have nothing to add to the advice given by Chuck Clark, George Ledyard and other posters.

As far as my knowledge of Dutch allows, I regularly read the discussion forums in which my students participate and I take note of what they write. I think my relationship with my Dutch students is somewhat freer than that with my Japanese students here in Hiroshima. We talk more away from practice and I generally have a good idea who has quit or is thinking of quitting—and why.

As for visiting students, I'll have to see what can be arranged. We have a huge crowd coming in September for the IAF Congress & Training Seminar in Tokyo and I think some of the Dutch at least might well venture 'up country' and come down to Hiroshima. We could all meet in Himeji...

Best,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 05-16-2004 at 07:04 AM.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-16-2004, 09:45 AM   #14
SeiserL
 
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

IMHO, I find that many of the "presence that upsets ki" in the Dojo is the same "presence that upsets ki" outside the Dojo.

Take less of a look at them externally and more a look at yourself internally. Utilize them as teachers. Find what visual images or auditory self-talk you are using the let them "upset your ki". Without being harsh, you are giving them your ki, probably your mind. If at all possible, train with them more to learn how to keep your own balance, ki, and peace of mind.

The internal Aikido of self-transformation is so much harder than the external technical Waza. And, well worth it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-16-2004, 03:48 PM   #15
Jeanne Shepard
 
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

My personal experience is, that when someone "disrupts my ki" either on or off the mat, its because they are pushing some personal buttons in me, and that tells me I have to look at some stuff. Sometimes talking to some one helps, sort of as a reality check, but I usually find the answer inside.

Jeanne

Last edited by Jeanne Shepard : 05-16-2004 at 03:50 PM. Reason: forgot to write it
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Old 05-16-2004, 06:23 PM   #16
PeterR
 
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Hello Peter,

I thought I was being quite fair, both to the poster and the members who replied and gave advice. What struck me was the part of the post I quoted above, from which I inferred that Andrew was considering quitting aikido. Perhaps I read into it more than was there, but if I were his instructor, I would want to know something like this. Otherwise, I have nothing to add to the advice given by Chuck Clark, George Ledyard and other posters.
I was thinking about this overnight - if he came to me as one of my students I would say pretty much what Chuck said and yes - he should go to his teacher. I mean really Budo training is primarily the mind and this sort of obstacle is exactly what you are expected to overcome and a good teacher expected to help you with. Not a coddle but - well as you know there are ways.
Quote:
As for visiting students, I'll have to see what can be arranged. We have a huge crowd coming in September for the IAF Congress & Training Seminar in Tokyo and I think some of the Dutch at least might well venture 'up country' and come down to Hiroshima. We could all meet in Himeji...
If you have a mess of them - no promises but with a bit of notice I could try and arrange a more senior instructor to give a randori introduction. Sort of along the lines of what the late Kobyashi H. of the Osaka Aikikai had - ie. randori not shiai. When and if you want to move in this direction just PM me.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-17-2004, 04:54 PM   #17
"anonymous"
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Talking Re: Presence upsets my ki

I put in to practice tonight everything that has been said and I trained with both nidan's and I was able to train without loosing any focus or feelings of apprehension so thanks to everyone for your advice's it worked and now I can move on.

Big thanks to all Andrew
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Old 05-18-2004, 03:07 AM   #18
ruthmc
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Re: Presence upsets my ki

Quote:
I put in to practice tonight everything that has been said and I trained with both nidan's and I was able to train without loosing any focus or feelings of apprehension so thanks to everyone for your advice's it worked and now I can move on.

Big thanks to all Andrew
That's great news Andrew!

Keep up the good work

All the best,

Ruth
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