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Old 10-11-2004, 04:10 AM   #76
Ian Williams
Location: Adelaide, Australia
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Quote:
Duval Culpepper wrote:
So how's that technique above work? Grab on top of the wrist, tenkan, and turn the arm over and bring it into your chest?
From a straight punch, yes, deflection with the "rear" hand in a std defence stance into grabbing, enter and rotate, holding onto the arm and rotating it at the same time until your feet end up square with his, and his elbow directly under arm pit..

you can step out with the outside leg to lower your opposite shoulder and bring the lock on more.. very effective for the uninitiated.

The counter, is to forward roll out of it.

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure
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Old 10-11-2004, 07:01 AM   #77
raul rodrigo
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Quote:
Ian Williams wrote:
From a straight punch, yes, deflection with the "rear" hand in a std defence stance into grabbing, enter and rotate, holding onto the arm and rotating it at the same time until your feet end up square with his, and his elbow directly under arm pit..

you can step out with the outside leg to lower your opposite shoulder and bring the lock on more.. very effective for the uninitiated.

The counter, is to forward roll out of it.

If the hijikime/wake gatame is done properly, then uke's arm is rotated forwards, so that his elbow is pointing forwards instead of at the ceiling, his fingers are pointing forwards with the thumb on top, and your arm is in front of his elbow, then my thinking is a forward roll isn't going to work, because nage's arm blocks the move forward. The key for uke's counter of course is to read the hijikime and move before the nage's elbow moves in front of your elbow, very difficult to do in real world speeds. And I was taught that the lock isn't straight down, but horizontal, pulling the inner elbow toward hara while the outer arm pushes on uke's arm, trying to tuck uke's fingers into his own ear.

Just my two cents.


R
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Old 10-11-2004, 09:32 AM   #78
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote:
If the hijikime/wake gatame is done properly, then uke's arm is rotated forwards, so that his elbow is pointing forwards instead of at the ceiling, his fingers are pointing forwards with the thumb on top, and your arm is in front of his elbow, then my thinking is a forward roll isn't going to work, because nage's arm blocks the move forward.
The thing about the version indicated above however is that for many, the instinctive reacton to having the elbow rotated forward so much that it points to the front is to turn the body with the rotation to relieve the pressure, allowing the elbow to bend slightly regardless of whether Tori's arm is there or not as the attacker's turning of the torso changes the angle of the elbow before Tori gets it in nice and tight.

If the Uke is bigger than you this puts him in a side on position with his rib cage pressed against your back very close to you with his arm half way across your chest from the attempted arm lock, giving him an opportunity to pick you up using his hips and the other arm (placed on Tori's waist, leg, trousers or belt) and lean back to drop you or drop on top of you as your feet leave the ground. This counter is practiced in some Judo but mainly in Jujutsu from my experience and is done from the ground in Graeco Roman wrestling. The setup is semi instinctive so it can be dangerous if Tori is not quick and keeps the kuzushi moving in the right direction. The throw looks similar to one of those WWE wrestling throws where someone gets picked up inverted by the waist and chest and dropped onto their side, head or back depending on the degree of leverage gained. The exact throw looks something like this , but the relative body positions are reversed. The result is the same though, with Tori's balance being taken to the rear side.

Personally I think the elbow up variant is quicker and easier to apply and gets effective (i.e. causes pain and takes balance) faster than the elbow forward variant. The roll counter is possible, but can be eliminated by dropping to the floor/ground sharply, sending their roll crashing into the ground.

Just my thoughts.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 10-11-2004 at 09:38 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-11-2004, 10:06 AM   #79
raul rodrigo
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:

If the Uke is bigger than you this puts him in a side on position with his rib cage pressed against your back very close to you with his arm half way across your chest from the attempted arm lock, giving him an opportunity to pick you up using his hips and the other arm (placed on Tori's waist, leg, trousers or belt) and lean back to drop you or drop on top of you as your feet leave the ground. This counter is practiced in some Judo but mainly in Jujutsu from my experience and is done from the ground in Graeco Roman wrestling.
Personally I think the elbow up variant is quicker and easier to apply and gets effective (i.e. causes pain and takes balance) faster than the elbow forward variant. The roll counter is possible, but can be eliminated by dropping to the floor/ground sharply, sending their roll crashing into the ground.

Just my thoughts.
LC
Interesting variant, Larry. I didn't get far enough in judo to see obi-otoshi in randori. Is it an effective and common counter to wake gatame? The two times I saw wake gatame used in randori, the match was effectively over at that point.
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:03 PM   #80
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Hi Raul,

I'm not sure if it is a common counter to Waki Gatame, since most times when Waki is used in Judo it's from on the floor from my experience. I have seen some folks try to get the position I indicated above to get off a counter to Waki though, part of which led to my saying that the setup was semi instinctive (i.e. the turning motion to avoid the arm being locked out fully). The thing is when Waki Gatame is done against the elbow while it faces upward it becomes effective (i.e. painful) quicker than the forward facing version as a good bit more turn is required on the arm for the latter. The attacker has a bit less time to figure out what is happening and start to turn and squirm out of the lock. The opening for a forward roll escape is there, but if one pulls the waki gatame closer to one's centre (tightening the lock on the elbow) the attacker's elbow will snap from his own attempt to do a forward roll. In fact I use the roll escape a bit in Judo grappling, but I only risk it after I know I've loosened my elbow by this turning motion, allowing me to roll with my arm alongside my body instead of at an angle which can make it easy for the other guy to reapply the Waki Gatame.

I agree with you that when Waki is applied well that is usually the end of the match, the same goes for Aikido competitions too I think. It's a bit harder to get off in Aikido comps though.
Just my few cents.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-11-2004, 06:55 PM   #81
raul rodrigo
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Thanks for the input, Larry. Will check these ideas out on the mat tomorrow. In our judo dojo, waki gatame was our judo sensei's preferred counter to anyone who was stiff-arming and preventing you from entering with a throw. So it was a more of a standing technique in our dojo. Sensei also taught us that the second your elbow passes over his elbow, drop to both knees immediately, making counters very difficult. I agree that applying waki with the downward pressure is usually great at getting pain and compliance. But as both uke and nage, I seem to get a more calibrated, precise, aiki effect with the horizontal pressure once both knees are on the mat. Many times,when a nage is applying the downward pressure, once he's down on both knees, he tries to simply power down on my arm to get the tap, and unless he's sensitive enough to be exactly on top of my elbow, he wastes a lot of energy because the pain isn't right on the money. Have you experienced anything like this?
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Old 10-11-2004, 10:04 PM   #82
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Hi Raul,

Yes I have experienced what you are talking about a few times. This is why I try to keep the focal point of the technique as learnt in Aikido when I apply it in Judo and JJ training.

Another variant of Waki Gatame, the one we do most times in our style involves applying the pressure on the fore arm to lock the elbow and also control the wrist and hand of the attacker, eliminating the possibility of rolling out like I indicated. It also gives a few more options for control of the attacker.

A video of it can be found here - http://www.ttac.0catch.com/hiji.htm

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-12-2004, 01:59 AM   #83
Ian Williams
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

if the arm bends when you're trying to apply that arm restraint, we move into an arm turning rotational take down (sorry about the anglicised technique names), as they are attempting to "pull out" of the arm break...

I like that counter to the counter of trynig to roll out of the restraint pity we never get to practice that sort of thing at full speed.

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

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Old 10-12-2004, 02:41 AM   #84
xuzen
 
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Quote:
Duval Culpepper wrote:
Hello, I'm new to the boards. I'm Duval, a 17 year old student of Aikido from NYC.

Anyway, I was at a party recently where a altercation between a friend of mine and some guy was about to brew. Fortunately, I separated them, but the guy was pushing my friend with a lot of one-armed shoves.

Now as I said, I separated the two, but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that? I'm not one to escalate a situation to a fight, but sometimes action must be taken.

Thanks.
Hi Duval,

I am late with the reply (being reply #84), but its just that there are too many good threads in this forum. Anyway my thought would be...

Tomoe nage (stomach throw), Koshi nage, kokyu nage, tenkan and atemi his lower ribs, tenkan hiji ate kokyu nage, irimi tsuki, take your pick. But most important of all, once you started the fight, be extremely confident to end it in your favour.

Be at peace,

Boon.

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