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Old 04-07-2004, 10:28 PM   #26
Duval Culpepper
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Oh no problem, all advice is appreciated.

Is that tegatana though? Elbow up and thumb down?
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Old 04-08-2004, 12:04 AM   #27
Largo
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It depends on what you want to do. If you notice, shoves tend to be slower and grabable (don't know if it's a word, but I'll use it anyways). Grab the shoving arm and pull. If you time it right, he'll fall down and feel like a fool. (note: I did this in school waaaay before doing aikido).

If you think too much about technique, you'll try to force it, and it'll come out wrong.

p.s.- edited to add that I was assuming from your age that it was just a guy being a dork and not really up to any serious trouble.


Last edited by Largo : 04-08-2004 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 04-08-2004, 05:49 AM   #28
Duval Culpepper
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Well, no, the guy was fairly intoxicated and angry. I assume given the opportunity, he would have started swinging.

But I imagine the more simpler techniques are sometimes more effective in these situations.
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Old 04-08-2004, 05:56 AM   #29
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Duval Culpepper wrote:
But I imagine the more simpler techniques are sometimes more effective in these situations.
Simpler techniques are always more effective - that's pretty much a cardinal rule.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-08-2004, 10:05 AM   #30
Buddy Iafrate
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Hiji-shime is a bugger of a technique to counter. Only thing I've come close with is rolling out very fast, and can only pull it off when I know which move is coming. Seems like if sh'te gets it on fast enough, it locks out the far hip and I can't even get enough clearence to get rolled up.

Couldn't get your video to download Ron, will try again from home. Curious to see if there is any variation from our series of elbow lock pin/throws. There are a couple of variations I've seen demonstrated that lockout the wrist-elbow-shoulder too, quite an enlightening experience for Uke =)
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Old 04-08-2004, 02:57 PM   #31
Chad Sloman
 
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Did you want to escalate or de-escalate the situation? Just about any technique involving locking the arm or throwing would have escalated the situation. Usually when I've been shoved in my life, I just walk away because the person doing the shoving wasn't really that serious about fighting (or else they would have punched/kicked me). But if you don't care about that, tenkan would probably be the easiest. Which could lead into several techniques depending on what he did. Or even a slight side step, make a new line and punch to the face/kick to the groin, whatever. Perhaps even a koshinage if they were pushing high and hard.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 04-08-2004, 05:03 PM   #32
mantis
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Quote:
Duval Culpepper wrote:
what would be a good technique to use against that?
the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, so Shomen-ate would be my first choice. step off the line of attack slightly, then a straight palm to his chin.

with his momentum coming forward and your momentum moving in, he will get thrown off balance quickly.

wakigatame is also a good one like was mentioned, but if there were multiple people on the aggressors side, I wouldn't want to be stuck controlling this guys arm.

A good shomenate will daze an individual and it leaves you free to deal with others, or just run.

Shomenate is the first reaction that i would do in almost any situation. All the other techniques will appear if it fails.
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Old 04-08-2004, 05:32 PM   #33
mantis
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Quote:
Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
Another one that I used "in real life" was shomen ate
I just saw this comment.

What happened to the other guy Larry?
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Old 04-09-2004, 10:59 AM   #34
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
james bennington (mantis) wrote:
What happened to the other guy Larry?
Basically what you said, he went off-balance, falling backwad into his two other pals who were standing behind him about to jump in. After using them to break his fall he ran at me and instead went for my pocket with his hand (aigamae katate dori - ish), controlling my sleeve with the other hand.

In that case, a step backward offline kuzushi and kotegaeshi had him heading for the asphalt.

Was fun.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-09-2004, 01:26 PM   #35
Yo-Jimbo
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Lightbulb Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving

Quote:
Duval Culpepper wrote:
Now as I said, I separated the two, but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that?
Duval,

As you will learn as you practice more and might surmise from the plethora of answers that your thread has received, there were many alternate things that you could have done. Notice that you reacted bravely and appropriately to your current skill, that is as much as one could ever expect of themselves.

I could suggest many techniques or combinations of techniques, but ultimately if I were there in the situation I would do what my instincts told me was most appropriate. You were actually there; what did/do your instincts tell you were other possibilities?

Also, remember that without being aggressive, it is still possible to act without waiting for "him" to act. It sounds to me like you did "disarm" this guy, because although he messed with your friend, he didn't mess with you. Perhaps he read in you body language that you could take care of yourself (whether you give yourself that credit or not), and he decided his aggression wasn't worth the risk anymore.

Keep practicing,

"One does not find wisdom in another's words." -James D. Chye
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Old 04-09-2004, 06:31 PM   #36
Josh Bisker
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I've got a memory from a seminar weekend when we were all in a bar downtown after evening class. There are lots of us there, spilling out of a little booth or two and into the crowded main floor, where some guys are playing pool. One of these guys is having a poor night of it, he keeps losing to his friend and he drinks pint after pint (whooa, sorry, glass after glass ... damn english influence is getting to me) to make up for it. He gets to eyeing our group as a cause of his lack of success, and at some point when he has built up a lot of frustration and a lot of drunkenness, he starts heading over to us to get angry. Biiig dude, red in the face, bleary eyed, staggery, no telling what's going to happen. My sensei gets up and walks up to him with a big smile on his face. He intercepts the guy before he's gotten over to us and says, "hey man, how's it going? i'm jim, you want a beer?"

And in no time, sensei and this guy are talking and laughing like old friends, and the guy buys us a round.

On the one hand, I saw it as being like the conversational equivalent of an aikido technique, but on the other I thought that maybe it WAS an aikido technique in its purest form; proactively taking a situation into one's own hands in order to dispel a conflict. It was a very impressive thing, as far as i was concerned. Since then, when I have found myself in dangerous feeling situations, I have tried out the "want a beer?" atemi, and it has worked with phenominal success.
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Old 04-09-2004, 06:36 PM   #37
Josh Bisker
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In the introduction to the book Budo (i think that's the one), there's actually a similar story about the Osensei getting between a bunch of farmers and a group of martial arts students who had tramped across their fields. The farmers were running at the MAs with sticks, angry at their tresspassing, and they probably would have gotten a whooping, but the Osensei appeared between the two groups bowing low in seiza and asking the farmers to forgive his children for their stupidity. And it worked. It's like the same thing as sidestepping and hitting them, only no one ends up hurt. Neat.
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Old 04-10-2004, 02:34 AM   #38
adriangan
 
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i might do a ubi-tori or an imon-tori...or i'd probably just sidestep and deflect his arm.

"Masakatsu Agatsu"
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Old 04-10-2004, 09:09 AM   #39
JessePasley
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Duval,

It seems you've received a lot of answers. I would have also suggested waki gatame (well, mostly because I'm enjoying learning it right now). However, techniques aside, you should really examine the nature of the 'authoritative shove' that immature and untrained people seem to like. Basically a shove is saying 'I want to hit you but I'm just a tad bit afraid to but I still want to be a man and look tough.' The shoving motion usually employed uses only a limited amount of forward motion, and most times the shover likes to back up a step to run his mouth some more. The part where he's doing this is a good time to spit in his face and wallop him in the face. Now that you've headed off the inevitable (ie, him hitting you), take him down with a technique.

if aiki randori has taught me anything, aikido techniques rarely work in isolation...make the opponent fight your fight.

But then again, if the guy is a rugby player or something like that and actually knows how to shove, then there's little you can do. Run home quickly, and cry.
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Old 04-11-2004, 10:07 AM   #40
MaryKaye
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If you have lots of space and a surface you like, an interesting response to being shoved would be to do a full backwards roll and walk away. It looks impressive enough that the opponent might think twice, and yet it's not aggressive.

No good in a crowded place, though, and watch out for broken glass.

Mary Kaye
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Old 04-11-2004, 07:07 PM   #41
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Mary Kuhner (MaryKaye) wrote:
If you have lots of space and a surface you like, an interesting response to being shoved would be to do a full backwards roll and walk away. It looks impressive enough that the opponent might think twice, and yet it's not aggressive.

No good in a crowded place, though, and watch out for broken glass.
Interesting concept.

Might also give the shover the mistaken impression of having succeeded in his endeavour to successfully attack (not to mention embarass) you. Empowering him to go do it to someone else in future.

Also a good way to place yourself in unnecessary danger by rolling into the unknown (or at least giving away your own upright posture for no tactical advantage).

Just my personal preference but I would tend not to give this advice to anyone hoping to defend him/herself. One can be unagressive without collapsing.

Just my thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-11-2004, 08:47 PM   #42
Nacho_mx
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I´d rather do a tomoenage than trying to awe the shover with my back roll ukemi (which is not very impressive to start with).
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Old 04-11-2004, 09:32 PM   #43
L. Camejo
 
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Tomoe nage - that's an example of giving up your upright posture for a tactical advantage - e.g. a throw.

Nice one Ignacio. Scary on bumpy, uneven ground tho.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-12-2004, 09:03 AM   #44
Michael Karmon
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Quote:
Duval Culpepper wrote:
.

but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that
appologize and leave!

Eat, Sleep, Exercise and watch out for cars
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Old 04-12-2004, 09:53 AM   #45
Michael Karmon
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Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Quote:
Duval Culpepper wrote:
Now as I said, I separated the two, but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that

Thanks.
I respectfuly claim that any of the good intentioned participants in this forum who answered by naming a technique or a tactic are making a big mistake and a disservice to Mr. Culpepper.

There is no end to the number of variations on defence from Katadori, Katatedori or Tsuki that may be preformed and the variations grow exponentially with Hankawasa. These techniques depend on the size and shape of both participants, amount of alcohole consumed, lighting, space, does he belong to a pro fire arms community etc.

Do you really think you are helping the young and inexperienced Mr. Culpepper by suggesting X-Nage or Y-Wasa?
His Sensei is probably the only one to give him any technical advice

Last edited by Michael Karmon : 04-12-2004 at 10:01 AM.

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Old 04-12-2004, 10:28 AM   #46
mantis
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Re: Re: Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

Quote:
Michael Karmon wrote:
Do you really think you are helping the young and inexperienced Mr. Culpepper by suggesting X-Nage or Y-Wasa?

His Sensei is probably the only one to give him any technical advice
I think it's a great help. First of all, you have to be familiar with all types of attacks.

A shove for example has numerous responses that we have seen in this post.

By knowing different responses, you can test them out in the dojo and see which one works for you.

If someone uses these techniques on face value without researching and testing them, then he/she would probably do something inappropriate in the first place.

your instinct is what will save you, not anything written on this board.
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Old 04-12-2004, 02:03 PM   #47
L. Camejo
 
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Speaking of "inexperienced", how long have you been training Duval?

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-12-2004, 03:31 PM   #48
Robert Cowham
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I would recommend not allowing the push to contact - basically blocking to the outside.

Technique wise this can lead to various alternatives - depends on the situation/attacker/etc.

I have been taught that, especially for women (being attacked), it is not a good idea to let someone have hold of you - get them off straight away. A push towards the shoulder and your shoulder shouldn't be there.

Robert
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Old 04-12-2004, 11:55 PM   #49
Duval Culpepper
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Quote:
Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
Speaking of "inexperienced", how long have you been training Duval?
About 2, 2 1/2 years now.

As I said before I'm not one to jump to a fight, but sometimes a physical response is neccesary.

Again, I thank all that have responded.
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Old 04-13-2004, 09:12 AM   #50
MaryKaye
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LC writes:

"Might also give the shover the mistaken impression of having succeeded in his endeavour to successfully attack (not to mention embarass) you. Empowering him to go do it to someone else in future."

This is something I struggle with (mainly in verbal or social confrontations, as my life doesn't get me involved in physical fights). When do you have a moral obligation to resist even though it may escalate the violence, because otherwise you are implicitly condoning the initial attack? Where does that shade into "saving face" or "winning" when you could just as well have walked away?

Some years ago I was in a situation where a fellow group member liked to make unwelcome physical advances. I put him off firmly but I didn't make a fuss. He left me alone, but tackled other, more vulnerable women (as we found out later). What I did was 100% effective at protecting me, but it didn't improve our overall situation.

I don't have answers to these questions. I'm still trying to find that line for myself.

My experience of drunk people, though, is that it's very hard for them to learn from what you do. They may hardly remember it next morning. So "sending a message" strikes me of questionable value.

Mary Kaye
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