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Old 06-04-2005, 06:20 PM   #51
L. Camejo
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
I have known very good modern Judo players to get into fights and throw wild flurries of punches. When they were done fighting, I asked them, "why didn't you do any of your Judo?" The guy answered, "Because I was in a fight." I returned, "Yeah, go think about that."
This should be obvious but...

the only thing the above shows is the limitations of the individual and not the method in itself. It depends on the goal and focus of one's training. The vast majority of Judoka I know train specifically for competitive sport and nothing else, as such they may have a problem in a self defence scenario (may being the operative word as the only certainty is there are no certainties). This does not mean however that the style in itself is not ready for self defence with a very little bit of creativity or the right intent.

There is also the news story from a couple years back when a lowlife tried to jack a carload of Judoka and was pinned until the cops responded to the 911 call. There are stories that show both sides, does it really mean that the MA is ineffective when someone can't get it to work? I think not.

Combat ready, for those who have experienced true combat is another thing entirely from dojo training imo unless your partner is coming at you with a loaded assault rifle. So which dojo martial art is combat ready again?

Just a few thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 06-04-2005, 09:42 PM   #52
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

You guys are flat out wrong about several things and I will explain below, this is why I still haunt these forums even though I no longer do Aikido. Judo is too often misrepresentation here on Aikiweb.

Competition increases a martial art's effectiveness, this is evident in Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Wrestling, Boxing etc. All of these arts will 99% of the time completely dominate someone who trains only in kata or kata like ways.

However, I will concur to a degree that some people who have a 100% competition mindset and never consider the martial application of the techniques are limiting themselves. But my money would still be on a 100% competitive judoka versus a traditional jujitsu practitioner or Aikidoka anytime.

Quote:
I believe Kano derived Judo from jiujutsu and alot of that was based on politics and philosophical differences based on the time and climate in Japan.

It is possible that Kano improved upon Jiujutsu, but since it would essentially be a derivative, I find it hard to believe that it would be more combat effective.

Diato Ryu is a form of jiu jutsu, BJJ is a form of Jiu justsu...I do not put them in the same category as aikido really if you look at it that way.

I used to think that competition ALWAYS watered down the combat effectiveness of a system. Now I think that it is immaterial. Some competition is good. The problem with it is perspective. If you focus solely on the "game" you may not gain all the "combat" aspects of the art.
The main difference between jujitsu and judo is training methods. Most jujitsu trains in kata forms and as a result are generally unprepared to fight somoene who trains in randori and competition. Maybe some of you are unaware but there was a famous contest hosted by the Tokyo police in 1886 where the Judo team defeated the most well-known jujutsu schools of the time. Still to this day I can not recall too many times where I have seen somoene who trains in kata that defeats somoene who trains in a competition oriented martial art. True, Judo derived its syllabus from several schools of jujitsu but the difference is that Kano focused on developing the more practical elements through realistic training.

Quote:
Modern Olympic Judo is not combat ready, unless the practitioner is innovative enough to alter some of the techniques. Or, unless he has cross trained in Jiu-jitsu (note my spelling). I have known very good modern Judo players to get into fights and throw wild flurries of punches. When they were done fighting, I asked them, "why didn't you do any of your Judo?" The guy answered, "Because I was in a fight." I returned, "Yeah, go think about that."
This is simply false you will have to explain more about how you think it is not combat ready especially when compared to an art like Aikido. The Judoka you mentioned not using Judo in a fight is just their stupidity, it says nothing about the effectiveness of Judo. I have read plenty of stories here on Aikiweb where people failed to use their Aikido and resorted to other ways of fighting, including a close associate of Ueshiba.

Quote:
the only thing the above shows is the limitations of the individual and not the method in itself. It depends on the goal and focus of one's training. The vast majority of Judoka I know train specifically for competitive sport and nothing else, as such they may have a problem in a self defence scenario (may being the operative word as the only certainty is there are no certainties). This does not mean however that the style in itself is not ready for self defence with a very little bit of creativity or the right intent.
I agree, I think you have it right. It is up to the individual to learn and apply the techniques effectively. If somone trains only for competition and does not even see or realize Judo as a means of self defence, then they are going to have problems using it that way. The same can be said for any martial art, if an Aikidoka only trains for their spirituality and does not train for self defense then it is likely that they will not be able to use it well to defend themself.

Personally I use competition as a way to motivate me to stay in shape and keep practicing hard. It is a good way to learn how to apply techniques when your adreneline is high and when there is someone trying their best to beat you.

When I am training I try to stay aware of self defense applications, for example, keeping my head tucked and face turned away when I pinning somoene. There is a aiki-jujitisu guy that started practicing with us recently who likes to try and hit pressure points on my neck, says he is going to mock eye-gouge etc, to get out of pins, the stuff never works on me and I am not vulnerable to it.
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Old 06-04-2005, 11:47 PM   #53
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

I hate to say it but Judo wins again in MMA, Karo(Judoka) beat Serra (a world renowned BJJ blackbelt)

Yea Judo is not effective

Where are all the Traditional Jujitsu guys in MMA if it is so much more effective than Judo? The answer is that people who train only kata and cooperatively would get absolutely creamed. While MMA is not necessarily actual combat, it is close enough to show what is effective and what is not.
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Old 06-05-2005, 07:21 AM   #54
mj
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

This isn't an MMA forum though, is it?

Judo should be grateful for MMA as it has reinvigorated a sport that was becoming more and more minor. From the wonderful mid 80s when around 12 million people worldwide were doing Judo it only took a few years to the mid 90s for that figure to drop to around 4 million.

Competition fighters looking for sponsorship and the introduction of so many new rules, groundwork being removed and the hunt for television money destroyed grass roots Judo. The days when a player would stay at one club for life are long gone. The appearance on the international scene of MMA, Pride, UFC and so on has saved Judo. Judo was not capable of saving itself and was collapsing under its own weight.

And where do many Judo people want to go once they are 'passed it' (for lack of a better phrase)? What do they do once their knees are gone, they can't straighten their arms and the injuries have caught up over 20 years?

Do they want to live on old war stories?

I went to Aikido. I discovered a gem of an art which probably would not have interested me as much when I was younger (although I went to Aikido when I was younger, it was just as a break from normal training).

Coming to Aikido with a Judo knowledge of bodyweight, angles, movement, tsukuri, kuzushi and all the rest....fitness training and uchikomi - it is very enjoyable.

But that's just me

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Old 06-05-2005, 08:35 AM   #55
Mads Gabrielsen
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Fusen Ryu Jiu-jitsu wiped out the Kodokan.
Kano had to buy off the Fusen ryu clan to save face.
If you can't beat them, buy them.

Red Beetle.
I keep hearing about how great Fusen Ryu was, and how the ne waza was superior. Only trouble is, that Fusen Ryu today has very little ne waza that looks like what is practiced in judo and BJJ. I would like to know your source for saying this with such conviction.

Cheers,

Mads
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Old 06-05-2005, 11:35 AM   #56
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Mads Gabrielsen wrote:
I keep hearing about how great Fusen Ryu was, and how the ne waza was superior. Only trouble is, that Fusen Ryu today has very little ne waza that looks like what is practiced in judo and BJJ. I would like to know your source for saying this with such conviction.

Cheers,

Mads
To get started with you might check out Gene Simco's: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu "The Master Text" page 52

I want to say Steven Cunningham (who is very good on the history of Judo), but I will have to check.

As for how good Fusen Ryu is today, I don't know. Things change, sometimes for the worse. Just because a school is bad today, does not mean that it was bad in the past. But, you know this already.



Red Beetle
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Old 06-05-2005, 01:18 PM   #57
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Dear Michael Neal,

Modern Olympic Judo is defined by a body of rules. Coaches and participants select techniques and tactics from an enormous matrix of wrestling moves that they think will help them win in competition. Modern Olympic Judo is jacketed wrestling, it is not combat.

All of wrestling can be used in unarmed combat, but not all of unarmed combat can be used in wrestling.

Therefore, if you are only trained in wrestling, then you will not be fully prepared to deal with all that takes place in combat. You will not be trained to avoid and deal with strikes. There are no strikes allowed in the competitions of Judo, Folk-style, Free-style, or Greco-Roman wrestling.

When Greco-Roman Gold Medalist Rulon Gardner demolished Olympic Judo Gold Medalist Hidehiko Yoshida in a recent pride event, Rulon did not only use his wrestling, but he also punched among other things. He had to learn about other parts of combat before he entered into pride, because Greco-Roman Wrestling is not combat ready. Yoshida also had to learn some boxing and Jiu-jitsu, among other things, because Olympic Judo is not combat ready.

So, if you are training someone to participate in an Olympic style Judo competition, then you are training that person to deal with an opponent who will be using techniques that are compatible with the rules of Olympic style Judo. You are not teaching that person to identify and avoid sucker-punches. You are not teaching that person to close the distance and clinch when the adversary strikes at you. You are not teaching that person how to apply or escape from heel-hooks, knee-bars, hip-kimuras, omo-platas and so forth.

So, the techniques of Olympic Judo can be used in combat under specific conditions. But, you would only be partly ready for combat. You need to study more in order to be fully prepared, or combat ready.



Oh yeah, I would like to see a takedown tournament held in which world class competitors from Free-style, Greco-Roman, and Judo all competed against each other. Each specific match up would have to require the competitors to wrestle once with and once without the gi. This would be exciting. We need more takedown competitions.

Red Beetle
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Old 06-05-2005, 01:59 PM   #58
mj
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Well Monty I have to disagree with you here.

Firstly regarding your conclusions regarding Mr Gardner...he won a decision did he not? This goes against your own arguments about Judo and rules...he was judged the winner on points (unanimously).

You fail to mention that he outweighed his opponent by around 60 pounds and could not finish him off. If we say that Yoshida was not overcome by an Olympic champion who was, my god, 30 kilos heavier and had trained specifically to fight him ....well people may draw different conclusions regarding how well Judo had equipped him. The same would go for any art, wouldn't it?

I generally agree with your points on combat

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Old 06-05-2005, 02:42 PM   #59
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

I work with a few high school and college wrestlers in my Infantry Battalion that we teach combatives to. They have to "unlearn" a few things, and "learn" a few things in order to do well in NHB fighting.

Most have the basic skill set necessary to adapt rather quickly and become very good fighters.

After working with me a few times, they learn not to shoot leading with their face. they also learn not to "bleed" their elbows (sankyo and kotegaeshi).

It really does not take them too long to adapt. Much less time than someone who has never studied a martial art at all.

I have on kid in particular that is amazing, he intuitively knows much more about timing, distance, speed, agility than I do and I have been doing this for a while!

I would not necessarily equate wrestling and sport judo to combat...it is not that far as many would like to think though, many of the skills are relevant.
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Old 06-05-2005, 05:43 PM   #60
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote:
This isn't an MMA forum though, is it?

Judo should be grateful for MMA as it has reinvigorated a sport that was becoming more and more minor. From the wonderful mid 80s when around 12 million people worldwide were doing Judo it only took a few years to the mid 90s for that figure to drop to around 4 million.
So what if this is not a MMA forum? What exactly is your point?

"Judo is second only to soccer in terms of world wide participation". Martial Arts Professional, June 2002

I am not sure about your figures you may want to recheck them but regardless I don't see how it matters either way in the context of the discussion here. Judo does have a marketing problem and at least in the United States, Tae Kwon Do has done better in this area. But this rreally has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Judo as a martial art.

Quote:
Competition fighters looking for sponsorship and the introduction of so many new rules, groundwork being removed and the hunt for television money destroyed grass roots Judo. The days when a player would stay at one club for life are long gone. The appearance on the international scene of MMA, Pride, UFC and so on has saved Judo. Judo was not capable of saving itself and was collapsing under its own weight.
Groundwork was never removed from Judo, if groundwork was removed how did I spent over 2 minutes doing matwork at the last competition? The rules state that groundwork will be stopped once their is no progress being made by either side.

I still am curious to learn how Judo was "collapsing under its own weight"

Quote:
And where do many Judo people want to go once they are 'passed it' (for lack of a better phrase)? What do they do once their knees are gone, they can't straighten their arms and the injuries have caught up over 20 years?

Do they want to live on old war stories?
Am am not sure what point you are trying to make here but there plently of things a Judoka can do with Judo once their competition years are over, there is Kata, referees, coaching, teaching etc.

Quote:
I went to Aikido. I discovered a gem of an art which probably would not have interested me as much when I was younger (although I went to Aikido when I was younger, it was just as a break from normal training).

Coming to Aikido with a Judo knowledge of bodyweight, angles, movement, tsukuri, kuzushi and all the rest....fitness training and uchikomi - it is very enjoyable.

But that's just me
I am glad you enjoy Aikido, but you can enjoy Judo into old age as well.
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Old 06-05-2005, 06:05 PM   #61
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Dear Michael Neal,

Modern Olympic Judo is defined by a body of rules. Coaches and participants select techniques and tactics from an enormous matrix of wrestling moves that they think will help them win in competition. Modern Olympic Judo is jacketed wrestling, it is not combat.
It is just as much a combat art than any other, in fact even basic high school wrestling is a very effective way to defend yourself. Grappling is a very effective way to defend yourself, especially grappling techniques that are strengthened through competition and randori.

Quote:
All of wrestling can be used in unarmed combat, but not all of unarmed combat can be used in wrestling.

Therefore, if you are only trained in wrestling, then you will not be fully prepared to deal with all that takes place in combat. You will not be trained to avoid and deal with strikes. There are no strikes allowed in the competitions of Judo, Folk-style, Free-style, or Greco-Roman wrestling

When Greco-Roman Gold Medalist Rulon Gardner demolished Olympic Judo Gold Medalist Hidehiko Yoshida in a recent pride event, Rulon did not only use his wrestling, but he also punched among other things. He had to learn about other parts of combat before he entered into pride, because Greco-Roman Wrestling is not combat ready. Yoshida also had to learn some boxing and Jiu-jitsu, among other things, because Olympic Judo is not combat ready. .
There is not a single martial art on the planet that would be combat ready by your defination then, only a mix of several different styles. I agree, mixed martial arts are much more effective than one art alone, there is no doubt about that. But that does not mean that Judo is not combat effective. To compete in MMA you have to be good at striking and grappling because the competition is trained that way. If you want to maintain Judo is not combat ready then you have to say that neither is Aikido, BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, karate, jujitsu etc.

Regarding your claims that Judo does not train striking, much of that preserved in the kata. But regardless if you do kata training or not, once the Judoka closes the distance striking is pretty much useless anyway.


Quote:
So, if you are training someone to participate in an Olympic style Judo competition, then you are training that person to deal with an opponent who will be using techniques that are compatible with the rules of Olympic style Judo. You are not teaching that person to identify and avoid sucker-punches. You are not teaching that person to close the distance and clinch when the adversary strikes at you. You are not teaching that person how to apply or escape from heel-hooks, knee-bars, hip-kimuras, omo-platas and so forth.

So, the techniques of Olympic Judo can be used in combat under specific conditions. But, you would only be partly ready for combat. You need to study more in order to be fully prepared, or combat ready.

Oh yeah, I would like to see a takedown tournament held in which world class competitors from Free-style, Greco-Roman, and Judo all competed against each other. Each specific match up would have to require the competitors to wrestle once with and once without the gi. This would be exciting. We need more takedown competitions.

Red Beetle
What do you mean "You are not teaching that person to close the distance and clinch when the adversary strikes at you." This is the very essence of Judo and where it excels.

Again, there is not martial art that exists that excels at all of the combat conditions you have laid out here.

Since this is an Aikido forum I will pick specifically on it using your logic. Aikido does not train much grappling especially newaza, thefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not really teach how to strike effectively, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does little randori or competition, thefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not train very often against kicks, therfore it is not combat effective. etc. etc. etc.

So my question to you is, Judo is not combat ready as compared to what?

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-05-2005 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 06-05-2005, 09:56 PM   #62
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

So my question to you is, Judo is not combat ready as compared to what?[/quote]

Gracie Jiu-jitsu

Red Beetle
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Old 06-05-2005, 10:09 PM   #63
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Well Monty I have to disagree with you here.

Firstly regarding your conclusions regarding Mr Gardner...he won a decision did he not? This goes against your own arguments about Judo and rules...he was judged the winner on points (unanimously).
Yes, everyone who saw the fight could only agree that Rulon won easily. Yoshida did not have the ground skill to handle the larger Greco-Roman wrestler. Royce Gracie handled Dan Severen, another Greco wrestler, and with no time limit and bare knuckle. One possibly could begin to make an argument about the combat effectiveness of Gracie Jiu-jitsu from such a comparison between Yoshida's fight with a Greco wrestler and Royce's fight with a Greco wrestler.


Quote:
You fail to mention that he outweighed his opponent by around 60 pounds and could not finish him off. If we say that Yoshida was not overcome by an Olympic champion who was, my god, 30 kilos heavier and had trained specifically to fight him ....well people may draw different conclusions regarding how well Judo had equipped him. The same would go for any art, wouldn't it?
Again, consider Royce's fight with Dan. Royce gave up as much weight, or more so and won no questions asked. No person trained in Olympic style Judo has ever done, or could do what Royce Gracie did in UFC 1,2, and 4. Royce fought match after match, bare knuckle, no time limit, and came out on top. It took Rorion Gracie putting little Royce up against all of those big heavy fighters to wake up modern Judo. Let's not forget about how Royce easily took out Remco Pardoul, the Dutch Judo champion. So, I am arguing that Gracie Jiu-jitsu is combat ready when it comes to unarmed combat. Because, they understand what can and usually does take place in unarmed combat.

Red Beetle
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Old 06-05-2005, 10:33 PM   #64
Pankration90
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Monty Collier,

You're right that many judo-ka don't do much ne waza because of the rules (although there are people who do tachi waza and ne waza in equal amounts, have you seen Kozushi on the judo forum?). People who do 'traditional' bjj don't focus enough on standing techniques.

Here's a quote from Shogun on martialtalk.com:
Quote:
BJJ doesnt sprawl. we pull guard.
(http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthr...t=23220&page=2)

He's training in bjj under Pedro Sauer. He's learning 'real' bjj, not bjj + wrestling + sombo + boxing + muay thai + whatever else.

What would you rather do in a street fight, control a guy in the clinch and be able to end the fight by throwing him, or pulling guard to take the fight to the ground when you might not need to?

Also, before you start thinking that I'm a judoka who is jealous of bjj, I'm not. I've never trained in judo. I'm a submission grappler/mixed martial artist and I try to learn whatever I can, and bjj makes up a large portion of my training. BJJ is great at what it specializes in (ne waza), but it alone isn't "combat effective" IMO. Knowing how to defend yourself on the ground is good (using the guard and knowing escapes from folkstyle wrestling) but knowing how to prevent yourself from ending up there is just as important.
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Old 06-05-2005, 11:14 PM   #65
Red Beetle
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Grr! Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
It is just as much a combat art than any other, in fact even basic high school wrestling is a very effective way to defend yourself.
You keep missing the point. I teach AAU wrestling for middle school and high school kids. See my website under the 'wrestling' button. We do not teach these kids how to close the distance and clinch when someone is punching at them. We teach them to wrestle another wrestler who is competing in a folk-style tournament with folk-style rules. If an AAU wrestler is going to use his folk-style skills for actual combat, then he will have to be innovative himself, or ask someone trained in Jiu-jitsu to help him.
Olympic Judo is the same as AAU wrestling. Take Udo Quellmaz, German gold medalist Judo in the 96 Olympics in Atlanta. How long did Udo practice avoiding punches before he played in Atlanta? He prepared for a jacketed wrestling event, not a street fight. That is what Olympic Judo is, it is a jacketed wrestling event.
You won't see Jimmy Pedro kneeing anyone in the face in any of his Olympic matches. You won't see Nicolas Gill evading kicks to the legs, body, or head in any of his international Judo matches, because strikes are not allowed. Because, modern Olympic Judo is not combat.


Quote:
Grappling is a very effective way to defend yourself, especially grappling techniques that are strengthened through competition and randori.
This I agree with. You are so right. When I fought challenge matches against people from other styles of Martial Arts I agreed not to strike at all, unless the challenger tried to gouge my eyes or bite me. Even in the matches where they tried to claw my eyes and bite me, I never had to do anything other than wrestle. The point of such a match was to demonstrate the combat effectiveness of Jiu-jitsu. I could not have done such things if I did not understand how to close the distance when someone was trying to strike. I could not have been so effective unless I knew how to suffocate arm movement once the fight reached the ground. Believe it or not, you have to know how to wrestle a striker once he is on the ground, if you are going to do so without being hit. There is a logical method. There is a way to hold tate-shiho-gatame without being bit. There is a way to hold side control so that your adversary can't claw your eyes. These are all Jiu-jitsu tactics designed with the dirty fighter in mind.

But in Olympic Judo, we do not have to worry about Udo Quellmaz launching a spinning hook kick at my head when the ref starts the match.


Quote:
There is not a single martial art on the planet that would be combat ready by your definition
Gracie Jiu-jitsu accomplishes this.
They are trained to handle wrestlers, as well as, strikers. Before anyone could begin to become effective against the Gracie system they had to first understand what unarmed combat entailed.

I will be the first to say that tournament Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is not combat ready if that is all the Bjj player is trained for. There is no striking in Bjj gi/no-gi tournaments. Most Bjj teachers have a working knowledge of Gracie Jiu-jitsu and vale-tudo (something different from Gracie Jiu-jitsu), since Bjj mostly came from the Gracie family.

Quote:
But regardless if you do kata training or not, once the Judoka closes the distance striking is pretty much useless anyway.
Ken Shamrock faced an United States Judo player in one of the early UFCs. I cannot think of the guys name, but he was an excellent Judoka. He fought in a blue kimono. After the clinch, Ken pounded him into submission. The Judo guy had only been trained for tournament play. He was not ready to deal with a guy who could grapple and strike. Ken never defeated Royce in their engagements. He did dot Royce's eye during the timed 'superfight', but that is quite different from a no-time-limit event which the Gracies specialize in.

Renzo Gracie fought a European Judo champion in one of the earlier reality combat events. It was called World Combat.... I can't remember the exact name. Maybe somebody else can. Anyway, the Judo guy did get the take-down, despite what was written in the book by Kid Peligro titled "The Gracie Way." The Judoka took Renzo down with Morote-gari. Renzo did a nice sweep and ended up on the Judoka's back. The guy turtles and Renzo unloads the Gracie elbow to the guy's neck and head. That was the Gracie way of handling Olympic Judo's defensive turtle position. The European Judoka was simply doing what he had trained all of his life to do....Turtle. His Judo was not combat ready. His Judo is Olympic Judo.


Quote:
What do you mean "You are not teaching that person to close the distance and clinch when the adversary strikes at you." This is the very essence of Judo and where it excels.
Come on, Olympic Judo teaches a person how to skew their stances, play patty-cake, hide grips, take grips, grip climbing, and break grips. It does not teach people how to close the distance and clinch when the guy is throwing hay-maker after hay-maker, or when the guy is kicking, and so on. Show me an Olympic or international Judo competition where striking is going on. The New York Open have any knock outs due to the left hook? I think you are just being stubborn.

Quote:
Again, there is not martial art that exists that excels at all of the combat conditions you have laid out here.
Again, Gracie Jiu-jitsu


Quote:
Since this is an Aikido forum I will pick specifically on it using your logic. Aikido does not train much grappling especially newaza, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not really teach how to strike effectively, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does little randori or competition, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not train very often against kicks, therefore it is not combat effective. etc. etc. etc.
I never said Aikido is combat effective. Like Olympic Judo, the techniques of Aikido will work under specific combat circumstances. These circumstances may or may not appear in unarmed combat.

Thus, we are back to my analogy of the three sisters. If you really have to fight, you better have big sis on your side for safety.

Finally, I love Judo. I love Aikido too. I want to promote each and see them prosper. I am sick of all these cheesy Tae Kwon Do schools, which don't even come close to what it is in the Olympics, making a fortune off of unsuspecting fools. These modern Tae Kwon Do and Karate places provide little more than social interation and baby-sitting. Do you want fries with that Black-belt?



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Old 06-05-2005, 11:28 PM   #66
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
People who do 'traditional' bjj don't focus enough on standing techniques.
Saulo Ribeiro and 'Margarida' Pontes seem to have game when it comes to takedowns. Just because their Bjj, don't assume they can't throw.


Quote:
BJJ is great at what it specializes in (ne waza), but it alone isn't "combat effective"
If Bjj is all a person knows, then it is not combat effective. If Pedro Sauer doesn't teach anything other than tournament Bjj, then it will not be combat effective. He has an affiliate school in our area, and so, I know they understand the basics of Gracie Jiu-jitsu (just check Sauer's resume).

I understand what Shogun is saying when he says that they do not sprawl, but pull guard. This is not wholly true, we have all seen Bjj guys sprawl (if not, then get a hold of Marc Laimon's Tournament Tested Techniques and enjoy).

A friend of mine put a front-headlock (free-style variation) on a black belt in Bjj, and the guy could not escape it the entire match. I am not saying Bjj doesn't have problems. I am saying that Gracie Jiu-jitsu is combat effective.


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Old 06-06-2005, 12:50 AM   #67
Pankration90
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Saulo Ribeiro and 'Margarida' Pontes seem to have game when it comes to takedowns. Just because their Bjj, don't assume they can't throw.
...and where did these throws come from? Judo.

I'm no expert on the Gracies, the history of bjj, etc. but as far as I'm aware "BJJ" and "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" are synonymous. What you seem to be talking about is vale tudo training, which largely came from the addition of boxing and muay thai. Look at "Mastering Jujitsu" by Renzo Gracie. If those strikes aren't boxing and muay thai strikes, I don't know what are.
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Old 06-06-2005, 02:25 AM   #68
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
and where did these throws come from? Judo.
You bet they came from Judo.
They took the time to learn what worked. I think modern Judo players need to do the same.


Quote:
I'm no expert on the Gracies, the history of bjj, etc. but as far as I'm aware "BJJ" and "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" are synonymous
.
I have personally witnessed Rorion Gracie argue to the contrary.
Not everyone cares what Rorion thinks, but I have talked to others who argue a similar thread. For example, many of the Machados will quickly tell you that they do not practice Gracie Jiu-jitsu, but Machado Jiu-jitsu. They insist that there is a difference. Many of them also insist that what they do is not Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, but Machado Jiu-jitsu. It could just be semantics, but one should study for oneself.

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What you seem to be talking about is vale tudo training
Don't forget 'Lutra Livre' That is another popular free-fighting system in Brazil.

But thanks.

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Old 06-06-2005, 07:56 AM   #69
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Red Beetle,

I went to a Gracie Jiu Jitsu school for a while. Great people and their newaza was superb. When we did standup randori without the gi I was able to throw just about everyone I went against even though I had never trained without a gi before. So I really can not agree with you because my personal experience tells me otherwise. The only people I did not dominate were a few very large wrestlers, and even then it was a stalemate, they also had many more years wrestling experience than I had Judo experience.

It is so easy to apply judo without a gi that it would take a complete moron not to be able to do it. In order to be a good Judoka you have to train throws from as many types of grips possible. The grip I used most often in the no gi randori was a koshi garuma around the neck which is basic Olympic Judo 101.

The same goes with striking, I have sparred karate guys before and was able to toss them around like rag dolls even though they were trying to strike me.

And I am nothing special in Judo either, I am only a blue belt and I compete every once in a while at the local level.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-06-2005 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 06-06-2005, 12:41 PM   #70
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
I went to a Gracie Jiu Jitsu school for a while.
Cool, where did you go?

Quote:
When we did standup randori without the gi I was able to throw just about everyone I went against even though I had never trained without a gi before. So I really can not agree with you because my personal experience tells me otherwise.
I would love to see you come to Silvio Braga's Jiu-jitsu school in Knoxville, TN and just wrestle his guys stand up with the Gi. I have a feeling you would get educated real fast. And these guys are just Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.

I've seen guys from Helio 'Soneca' Moreira's schools who were white belts and blue belts toss Judo brown belts during stand up matches with the gi. The Judo guys had won plenty of Shiai, and were trained by a Rokudan, but could not get the takedown. This made the Jiu-jitsu guys really downplay Judo. 'Soneca' had studied Judo in Brazil.

Quote:
The only people I did not dominate were a few very large wrestlers, and even then it was a stalemate, they also had many more years wrestling experience than I had Judo experience.
Wow, you sound like your a natural takedown machine. That, or your doing takedown wrestling with a bunch of chumps.

Quote:
It is so easy to apply judo without a gi that it would take a complete moron not to be able to do it.
You are so wrong. Judo is not designed for NO-GI. The front-headlock demonstrates this all too well. I got kids who are in high-school, and they could put you in a front-headlock, and you will not get out with all your Judo. Like I said earlier, I have seen Brazilian Jiu-jitsu black belts incapable of escaping a collegic front-headlock. The front-headlock was not found in any Asian style. It is a Western hold. And a damn good one. Get a copy of Gable's Advanced Wrestling and check out how he puts it to use. You have to be trained to use and escape the front-headlock. And then, if the guy understands 'stance in motion' your gonna hate it.


Quote:
In order to be a good Judoka you have to train throws from as many types of grips possible. The grip I used most often in the no gi randori was a koshi garuma around the neck which is basic Olympic Judo 101.
I have never seen a Judo school take off their jackets and perform pummeling drills. Such drills are basic for no-gi stand up positioning.
Maybe you are referring to to what is called a C2 grip in Modern Judo (there is no such thing as a Koshi-guruma grip). This is where you take your power hand and grip around his neck at the 2nd cervical vertabrae. The C2 grip is still quite different from a Collar-Elbow (which is maybe what you are thinking about). You don't seem to know what you are talking about. You should know the basic terminology of Kumi-kata if you study Modern Olympic Judo. Maybe your teacher doesn't instruct you in this, or maybe you don't listen in class. Here are some of the grips in Modern Olympic Judo: C2, Right-Natural, T3, Left-Natural, LeftvsRight, Scapula, Pectoralis Pocket, Anterior elbow, Double-lapel, Double-sleeve, Yamarashi (careful 5 seconds for this one), and two on one, and so forth.

Quote:
The same goes with striking, I have sparred karate guys before and was able to toss them around like rag dolls even though they were trying to strike me.
This I believe. Keep up the good the work.

Quote:
And I am nothing special in Judo either, I am only a blue belt and I compete every once in a while at the local level.
Your special to us dear.


I think we agree more than you know. You just like verbal Judo. The problem is that I do too. You would like our Academy. I have some who preach that wrestling with a Gi is a dead art. I have some who only do Judo. I have others who only do AAU Folk-style. Then there are those who do it all.


R.B.

Last edited by Red Beetle : 06-06-2005 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 06-06-2005, 01:56 PM   #71
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Can someone define what is meant by "combat" or "combat effective". I think some assumptions are being made from different perspectives.

I must say i disagree with Michael Neal's statement as follows:

Quote:
Since this is an Aikido forum I will pick specifically on it using your logic. Aikido does not train much grappling especially newaza, thefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not really teach how to strike effectively, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does little randori or competition, thefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not train very often against kicks, therfore it is not combat effective. etc. etc. etc.
I disagree with it based on my definition of what is combat effective, which by that definition, all empty hand arts, simply come up lacking BIG Time. Again, it depends on what limitations you are placing on the scenario that maybe pictured in your head.

I don't study the arts for it's supposed "combat effectiveness". In a kill or be killed situation, or self defense, there are things that are simply much more effective than rolling around the ground, or twirling around. But before I can discuss them further, need to really know what is "combat effective" as we are framing it here.
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Old 06-06-2005, 02:25 PM   #72
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
Cool, where did you go?
Capital Jiu Jitsu in Alexandria, Virginia

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I would love to see you come to Silvio Braga's Jiu-jitsu school in Knoxville, TN and just wrestle his guys stand up with the Gi. I have a feeling you would get educated real fast. And these guys are just Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.

I've seen guys from Helio 'Soneca' Moreira's schools who were white belts and blue belts toss Judo brown belts during stand up matches with the gi. The Judo guys had won plenty of Shiai, and were trained by a Rokudan, but could not get the takedown. This made the Jiu-jitsu guys really downplay Judo. 'Soneca' had studied Judo in Brazil.
The guys you refer to are likely wrestlers with many years experiece and likely have Judo training as well, you mentioned the instructor had Judo training. So if I did spar them I would not be going against pure Jiu Jitsu, I would be fighting MMA fighters.

You can't have it both ways, you say that people who win MMA matches using Judo are not true Judoka since they crosstrain. Then you have Jiu Jitsu guys who cross train many styles and then claim it is Gracie Jiu Jitsu. No it is MMA, and I will readily admit that someone who trains MMA is likely a better fighter than me, no question.

Quote:
Wow, you sound like your a natural takedown machine. That, or your doing takedown wrestling with a bunch of chumps.

You are so wrong. Judo is not designed for NO-GI. The front-headlock demonstrates this all too well. I got kids who are in high-school, and they could put you in a front-headlock, and you will not get out with all your Judo. Like I said earlier, I have seen Brazilian Jiu-jitsu black belts incapable of escaping a collegic front-headlock. The front-headlock was not found in any Asian style. It is a Western hold. And a damn good one. Get a copy of Gable's Advanced Wrestling and check out how he puts it to use. You have to be trained to use and escape the front-headlock. And then, if the guy understands 'stance in motion' your gonna hate it.
Judo is designed for Gi or No Gi, it does not matter, you just have to alter the grip. I am not sure what your point is about the front headlock, it is an effective technique, but that does not mean Judo techniques are not.


Quote:
I have never seen a Judo school take off their jackets and perform pummeling drills. Such drills are basic for no-gi stand up positioning.

Maybe you are referring to to what is called a C2 grip in Modern Judo (there is no such thing as a Koshi-guruma grip). This is where you take your power hand and grip around his neck at the 2nd cervical vertabrae. The C2 grip is still quite different from a Collar-Elbow (which is maybe what you are thinking about). You don't seem to know what you are talking about. You should know the basic terminology of Kumi-kata if you study Modern Olympic Judo. Maybe your teacher doesn't instruct you in this, or maybe you don't listen in class. Here are some of the grips in Modern Olympic Judo: C2, Right-Natural, T3, Left-Natural, LeftvsRight, Scapula, Pectoralis Pocket, Anterior elbow, Double-lapel, Double-sleeve, Yamarashi (careful 5 seconds for this one), and two on one, and so forth.
All I was saying was that I took a grip as in koshigaruma, not that koshigaruma was a grip in itself. We don't learn the grips by the names you have said here, we just do them. Just because I don't know the name of the grip does not mean I don't know what I am talking about.

I am curious, what is your rank in Judo and what organization was it issued by? Because I have never heard anyone test or require Judoka to know the names of the grips.

Quote:
I think we agree more than you know. You just like verbal Judo. The problem is that I do too. You would like our Academy. I have some who preach that wrestling with a Gi is a dead art. I have some who only do Judo. I have others who only do AAU Folk-style. Then there are those who do it all.
Your place sounds great and I am sure the guys that train in multiple styles combining striking, wrestling, BJJ, Judo etc. would have no problem defeating me, but that does not mean Judo is not combat effective it just means MMA is more effective than Judo alone.
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Old 06-06-2005, 05:13 PM   #73
L. Camejo
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Can someone define what is meant by "combat" or "combat effective". I think some assumptions are being made from different perspectives.

I don't study the arts for it's supposed "combat effectiveness". In a kill or be killed situation, or self defense, there are things that are simply much more effective than rolling around the ground, or twirling around. But before I can discuss them further, need to really know what is "combat effective" as we are framing it here.
I think Kevin has a valid point here. "Combat effectiveness" can have nothing to do with dojo martial arts at all, so clarifications may be necessary.

As far as things being more effective for self defence than rolling around on the ground, I can vouch for that from personal experience more than once. If I were to believe my own experiences alone I'd say that BJJ, Judo and any ground grappling art was useless for real world self defence (having been in multi-attacker situations numbering 8 folks at least once). The proof lay in folks who did end up on the ground and as a result ended up in hospital with severe head injuries from boot kicks and stomps from the rest of the group.

However I'd be wrong in assuming that ground grappling arts were useless for self defence simply from those experiences. It's just that in the multi-attack scenarios I experienced at that time, the "take it to the ground" tactic would not have worked really well and the Aikido we do worked perfectly.

Of course me saying that the grappling arts don't work because of my little experience is as uneducated as saying any other art doesn't work in self defence (where what style you do is not as important as what you can get away with under the pressure and adrenal stress imho).

But in the end folks will believe what they need to sleep well at nite.

Kevin has a good point on the "combat effectiveness" question though.

Gambatte.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 06-06-2005 at 05:16 PM.

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Old 06-06-2005, 08:29 PM   #74
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Yea but Judo's "take it to the ground strategy" involves puttting the attacker on the ground forcefully while remaining standing. Newaza can be used to follow up if applicable but that would be stupid if there were multiple attackers.

What happens to someone who does not train any newaza at all when they find themselves on the ground, multiple attakers or not? They are then in serious trouble. Somoene skilled in newaza is better able to get to their feet quick, whether it be escaping a pin, dislocating arms, moving to a better psotion to stand etc.
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Old 06-06-2005, 10:28 PM   #75
Pankration90
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

In a one-on-one fight, knowing how to get back to your feet while someone is grappling you is important. In a fight against more than one person while you're by yourself, knowing how to get back to your feet while people are stomping on you and kicking you is more important. I think MMA would be better than a single grappling art in that situation (often in mma one guy will be trying to use an open guard so the other person will just stand up and start kicking or stomping).
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