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Old 04-04-2004, 02:52 PM   #26
Chris Birke
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Biting is the devil. Pinching is his pitchfork.
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Old 04-04-2004, 11:29 PM   #27
willy_lee
Dojo: City Aikido
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Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
The teacher did show me some things and his technique was a lot less jerky and more graceful than his students.

...

On the other hand, I AM a mudansha in Aikido, so I guess it would make sense to compare to Judo yudansha if I was one myself.
One thing you should know is that this is a fairly new judo club; there is almost no-one there (not counting yudansha) with more than 4-6 months of experience.

=wl
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Old 04-04-2004, 11:36 PM   #28
kironin
 
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Quote:
james bennington (mantis) wrote:
Off the top of my head, here are some aikido instructors that have also studied judo:

Kenji Tomiki

Kazuo Chiba

Senta Yamada

Yasuo Kobayashi

Karl Geis

Tetsuro Nariyama

Renjiro Shirata

Shoji Nishio

Gozo Shioda

John Waite

Koichi Tohei
just because they have studied judo proves what ?

several are Tomiki lineage and some of the others did Judo before Aikido was well known or even called aikido. Judo was part of school phys. ed. in Japan before WWII. They didn't study Judo to improve their Aikido. They were not aware of aikido when they did Judo.

In fact Koichi Tohei Sensei was generally dissatisfied with judo at the time he was referred to O-Sensei 1939.

I did Judo for a while. I have a healthy respect for those who are really good at it. It's fun but if you don't have a passion for it, it is certainly not necessary IMO to study it to do aikido or be better at aikido.

that said, I can hardly say there is any thing wrong with cross-training, since I do Iaido and have been getting into Systema. But I really enjoy training in those for their own sake.

Craig
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Old 04-05-2004, 12:02 AM   #29
Edward
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I have done judo for about 7 years. To think about it now, all what I got from it is bad knees and a lot, really lot of stress. Performance was crucial, and since I was not particularly good at competitions, I was always looked down at by my dojo mates. Training was fun though, and I enjoyed it, especially during periods when there were no imminent championships and atmosphere was relaxed.

Technically, I believe that judo and aikido could not be more different because they are based on completely different concepts. My previous judo experience has helped me a lot in my aikido progression in the beginning, but it soon became a hindrance when I reached somewhat a higher level.

I wouldn't recommend doing both though. The natural progression would be to start in judo and then move to aikido. Doing the opposite doesn't seem very logical to me.

Cheers,
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Old 04-05-2004, 12:49 AM   #30
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote:
just because they have studied judo proves what ?
Relax - I don't think he was trying to prove anything.
Quote:
several are Tomiki lineage
Geez you make it sound so dirty. None of the above went to Judo from Aikido but several do say that one should experience Judo to better understand your Aikido. This is mainly because of the way Aikido is generally trained rather than technical insights which also can be gained.

I really don't know that much about the Judo background of most on the list. Tomiki was prefectural champion and one of the top national players, Nariyama was considered one of the top High School players but ended up tossing it for Aikido, Senta Yamada was primarily a Judo man that also taught a little Aikido. I guess Judo experience can range from one of many in school (not everyone did/does Judo) to Dan ranked. The wheat is sorted from the chaff at Nidan in Judo - how many of the Japanese in that list were Nidan and up.

Last edited by PeterR : 04-05-2004 at 01:00 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-05-2004, 09:00 AM   #31
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
Technically, I believe that judo and aikido could not be more different because they are based on completely different concepts.
From my experience I can't agree with the above statement (though I can understand how some may feel this way). Imho aiki no ri is merely an extension or evolution of ju no ri. At the JAA site here we have some comments on the common principles between Aikido and Judo.

This chart may also help http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi5.html

I personally believe that the main difference lies in the ma ai used (grappling distance instead of striking distance) than any other technical aspect. I've been to some Judo dojos that train for self defence more than sport. During the self defence training a lot of techniques done are basically aikido kansetsu waza, and are applied using the same principles.

From my experience, if one applies basic Aikido principles of tai sabaki and kuzushi, one can be very effective at judo randori (at least being very hard to throw), an awareness of how to effectively apply tegatana and coordinated hand/hip motion helps the Aikidoka a lot in ne waza as well.

Just my thoughts.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 04-05-2004 at 09:05 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-07-2004, 03:26 PM   #32
Michael Neal
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Hey folks "light randori" is basically taking turns throwing eachother with light resistance. You allow people to throw if they get good kushushi. To say that you went in to a Judo class and were throwing Judoka around is kind of unbelievable. If you did throw people it is because they let you.

I welcome you to come to my Judo school (we are only a recreational sport Judo club) and try applying those moves. You may pull them off on rank beginners but unless you are something like a sandan in Aikido you will likely get dumped over and over again. And try them doing full randori not "light."




Last edited by Michael Neal : 04-07-2004 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 04-07-2004, 03:40 PM   #33
shihonage
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Hey folks "light randori" is basically taking turns throwing eachother with light resistance. You allow people to throw if they get good kushushi. To say that you went in to a Judo class and were throwing Judoka around is kind of unbelievable. If you did throw people it is because they let you.

I welcome you to come to my Judo school (we are only a recreational sport Judo club) and try applying those moves. You may pull them off on rank beginners but unless you are something like a sandan in Aikido you will likely get dumped over and over again. And try them doing full randori not "light."
First of all, going to this dojo is not the first time I've experimented with someone from another art.

Second of all, the first student was "light randori".

The other student has gotten quite serious.
We were moving around together with a mutual grab, trying to set up a throw.
Or at least, he was.
He negated most everything I tried.

I got him into a sankyo once, he fell another time as he invested himself into a throw which I evaded, but after that most of the time he was landing me on the floor.

I'm not saying that Judo is easy. Judo is tough and I respect it.

I'm quite sure that you're a tough guy Michael and that you can make a fillet out of me.

Last edited by shihonage : 04-07-2004 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 04-07-2004, 08:27 PM   #34
Michael Neal
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maybe you could make a fillet out of me too Aleksey I have no idea of your skill level, other martial arts, fighting experience, etc.

I am just saying that it is very unlikely most Aikidoka could walk into a Judo dojo like several here have written and pull off all kinds of submissions and throws on their first day of class. In fact even in heavy randori I let beginners have a few throws because I really do not want to discourage them and randori is about practice not competition.

It is also impossible to judge much of anything by one or even several classes. If you really want to test your skills enter a Judo competition or ask somoene in class to go randori with you holding nothing back.

i do agree that you should probably stick to one or the other Judo or Aikido because both are rather dmeanding and take alot of time and patience to learn and progress.

I like Aikido I just don't think the training methods really prepare you to walk into a Judo dojo and start putting the smack down on people unless you are really really big, super strong, or have tons of varied martial arts experience and fighting experience.
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:39 AM   #35
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Wow,
I am surprised at some of the remarks made on this thread.

I teach Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido.

I totally disregard all of the Asian philosophical 'meditative' non-sense that can be found in all three (Brazilain Jiu-jitsu does not generally have this problem as does traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu).

Now, since I have been teaching, I have had two challenge matches with black belts in Aikido, and one challenge match with an expert in Hap-ki-do.

The first challenge match I had with a black belt in Aikido was a quick match. Clinch, takedown, mount, back-mount, and finished him with hadaka-jime (mate-leon--or the sleeper). No punches were thrown. He really tried his game. Problem was, I know the game too. I was not going to let him exagerate my momentum and break my balance. Once I had the clinch, he was outside the realm of Aikido. I was impressed with his Aikido technique, but he was more interested in challenging me. I encouraged him to return, just to practice Aikido with me if nothing else (he was good at it), but he never came back.

The second challenge match that I had with an Aikido black belt happened last year. He teaches the system in a small neighboring town near my own. He came into my school, demanded to see my Aikido technique. I was teaching a jiu-jitsu class, but since there were very few students there, I agreed to demonstrate some of my Aikido. I demonstrated the unbendable arm and ko-te-gaeshi. Then this guy comes on to my tatami mats with his shoes and starts contradicting me. Well, I explained to him that if all he knew was Aikido, and he was not versed in Judo or Jiu-jitsu, then he would not have a grappling foundation to fall back on should his Aikido fail (guys, most teachers of Aikido that I know are also black belts in Judo--and for a good reason). He did not like the sound of that. He insisted that he could handle me. No problem, I didn't like his attitude, so I challenged him right there. After I got the clinch, he tried a half-ass version of O-soto-gari, and I laid him down like a baby. I took the mount (tate-shiho-gatame) and pinned him. He struggled a bit (even tried to claw my eye), then asked me to let him up. I said, "No, you have to get up yourself. Use your Aikido."
After he gave up again I let him up. I won the match without applying a choke or joint-lock. Niether Aikido practitioner was hurt during my challenge matches with them. And this is why I like Judo and Jiu-jitsu (as well as Aikido), you can often defend yourself fully, and without suffering injury, and without injuring your opponent.

Although Hapkido is not exactly the same as Aikido, my challenge match with the Hapkido expert was even quicker. I armbarred the guy in 7 seconds. He was trained by one of my first teachers. A Korean master at Hapkido and Yudo (that is how the Koreans say Judo).

I have used Aikido in real fights. It will work if the attacker is committed to his attack with great force, and if you can recognize his attack in time to pull off the Aikido tactic that best suits his attack. This is easier said than done. It is safer just to close the distance and establish a clinch.

I have even used Aikido in wrestling matches with Jiu-jitsu players. I caught a guy pushing really hard ( he clearly advertised it) and he ended up on his face. I have only pulled this off once though. It was funny. He gave up after going face down and started laughing himself. The last time I tried to capitalize on a jiu-jitsu player pushing with an Aikido tactic ended up with me being slung across the floor ( I was a bit late).

Remember, Aikido will work, but it has to be under specific conditions. If those conditions are negated, then so is Aikido. That is why I recommend learning Judo and Jiu-jitsu first, then Aikido. Aikido is like a rifle. You can use it to take care of an adversary at a long range. Judo is like 357 magnum and Jiu-jitsu is like a sawed off shot-gun (you don't want to be in front of that gun when it goes off).

So, study them all, but know your limitations.

Red Beetle

Hey, go to my web-site!
www.kingsportjudo.com
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:21 AM   #36
CNYMike
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
i am out of here wrote:
I think I have to choose between Judo and Aikido.
Why? I'm doing five at the moment; my Kali instructor is focusing his attention on three HUGE arts. I think you can handle two, and that they both hail from the same culture (Japan) makes your life easier. Trust me on this one.

If you like both, have the time and money to do both, and the senseis in each don't mind you're doing both, do both.

Mike "Mr. Crosstraining" Gallagher.
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:34 AM   #37
kironin
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
I teach Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido.

...

I was impressed with his Aikido technique, but he was more interested in challenging me.

...

The second challenge match that I had with an Aikido black belt happened last year. He teaches the system in a small neighboring town near my own. He came into my school, demanded to see my Aikido technique.

...

Red Beetle

Hey, go to my web-site!
www.kingsportjudo.com


Your website makes no mention of Aikido.

what numbskulls would be visiting a Judo school to challenge the teacher's Aikido technique ?

I can't imagine anyone who really had a good understanding of Aikido.

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Old 06-01-2005, 01:40 AM   #38
kironin
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:
I totally disregard all of the Asian philosophical 'meditative' non-sense that can be found in all three (Brazilain Jiu-jitsu does not generally have this problem as does traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu).

This attitude is unfortunate for your students.

Your ability to apply Aikido techniques might just be a bit broader if you didn't disregard an important mental component of the art.

however given the focus on sport judo and fighting, this attitude is not surprising.

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Old 06-01-2005, 04:18 AM   #39
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Your website makes no mention of Aikido.

what numbskulls would be visiting a Judo school to challenge the teacher's Aikido technique ?

I can't imagine anyone who really had a good understanding of Aikido.
Craig,

You got a great web-site!

You are correct when you state that my website makes no mention of Aikido. I probably will not have anything Aiki-related on the site for some time. The reason is because I do not teach Aikido to beginner students unless they absolutely demand it. At my old school location I had a sign up advertising for Aikido. I got a steady flow of people interested in only Aikido. Now, I think you should be able to defend yourself, and most people get into the martial arts for that specific reason. I will not lie to people when they ask me if they can defend themselves with only Aikido. I tell them nicely that unless you are EXTREMELY good it is not likely that you will be able to handle most all-out-fighting situations against the 275lbs Irish Brawler.

My first teacher was a master at Hapkido and Yudo. I watched him fight several challenge matches against much larger adversaries. We had witnessed his amazing ability to use Hapkido to spin guys around, then project them thru the air effortlessly. We had witnessed his agility when we saw him execute the high spin kicks of the Korean systems too. But when it came time to fight the challenge matches there was no Hapkido, no Taekwondo, but only Yudo. And man was he rough. He was known for choking adversaries out while they were still standing, and then he would throw them!! Once the impact of the throw actually woke up one of his opponents. So, he choked him out again. Now, he was a business man, and when we asked him why he never kicked or did any of Hapkido in the challenge matches, but only did Judo, he would smile and say, "Oh, good! Now you want to do Judo too!" He never would answer us straight out, but we got the point. He was good at making money. If he knew a person was not tough enough for his Judo class (and man was it a rough class to go thru) he would tell the person, "You are made more for Taekwondo, Hapkido, Kumdo...).

I could run my school like that. I probably would make more money. But, I want people to be able to intelligently defend themselves. One might look at developing a fighting system the same way one would look at building a house. You first will start with the foundation (on the ground). Then you put up the structure. Then you put the roof on. The foundation would be Katame-waza (grappling--Brazilian Jiu-jitsu--Kosen Judo..). Next you need some close range tachi-waza (nage-waza--Judo, free-style, Greco-Roman throwing tactics). Finally, you need some long range tachi-waza (Aiki tactics, maybe a good understanding of western boxing, some Thai, ect.).

So, to be honest, if you want to learn the best ground technique, then you need to study Gracie Jiu-jitsu, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, and Kosen Judo. If you want to learn the best way to throw using the other guy's jacket, then you need to study Kodokan Judo and Modern Olympic Judo. If you want to learn the best way to throw without using the other guy's jacket, then study Free-style, American Folk-style, and Greco-Roman wrestling. If you want to learn the best way to re-direct, and then project (or immobilize) an attacker who is completely committed to his advertised punch, kick, or charge, then you can't beat Aikido.

I personally think that it is best to learn proficiently the 67 official throws of Judo before embarking on a serious study of Aikido projections. It doesn't seem that many agree with me on this point at this forum. That's o.k. The better my Judo gets, the better my Aikido gets. To me, Aikido is just a very subtle form of wrestling. Any good wrestler can throw his opponent effortlessly when the opportunity is right. Any good wrestler can make throwing look easy against one who is not trained to wrestle. After all, Judo is simply Jacketed wrestling.

It really is quite the experience to get a hold of a high level Judo player who is well trained. I have wrestled some who applied no pressure. They did not pull or jerk. They did not push or shove. You felt like you were holding an empty jacket when you finally got your grip (kumi-kata). You felt nothing as you watched this guy blitz into position, then a quick brush and over you went !!! I remember getting up smiling and thinking to myself, "How is this guy doing this without the rough strength?" But, I was young then. I worked with the same guy recently, and when your skill is close to the other guy's, then strength, speed, size, weight, conditioning, and innovation all become tools which you should use.

Aikido has its place. It should not be ignored. It should be learned and studied. The techniques should be promoted and developed. I love to watch good Aikido. I love to learn good Aikido. I love to see people practice good Aikido. I once heard a teacher explain the place of Jiu-jitsu, Judo and Aikido like this:

He said,
"Jiu-jitsu, Judo, and Aikido are like three sisters."

"Jiu-jitsu is the Oldest sister. She has a bad temper and likes to fight. She is only interested in winning fights. She has fought many times and knows what is effective from countless experiences. Since she will fight anyone, she must have excellent technique to secure victory. You know what to expect when she comes for you, but still, it is not easy to stop her. And, if you had to be in a fight, you would want her standing next to you, and on your side."

"Judo is like Jiu-jitsu's younger sister. She is more interested in competing in events and not actual combat. She is more interested in the glory of competition, and not always survival. But she can and will fight if pushed. Years of training and competition has made her tough. And remember, she grew up with big sis who taught her a few tricks."

"Aikido is the youngest sister. She is not interested in war or competition, but she is familiar with its background. She seeks a peaceful solution always. She is also the most beautiful of her sisters. She is very graceful to watch. You always feel good just being in her presence. But, she is not incapable of defense. She can manage quite well on her terms, and she is very tricky. Even still, one should be aware that even if she fails, she still has two older sisters who jealously guard and watch over her. Because they are all sisters, then you can bet that they are not far from her."

The point of his story was that a person should be well versed in each of the three styles. Get to know these sisters well. Know when it is time to call on each of them.

Train hard guys.
Red Beetle

www.kingsportjudo.com

Last edited by Red Beetle : 06-01-2005 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 06-01-2005, 05:03 AM   #40
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
This attitude is unfortunate for your students.

Your ability to apply Aikido techniques might just be a bit broader if you didn't disregard an important mental component of the art.

however given the focus on sport judo and fighting, this attitude is not surprising.
Craig,

please go to my website and read my Newsletters for the months of January and February. They are brief articles which explain why I don't buy into the Asian philosophy/religion in Aikido, Judo, and Jiu-jitsu.

I think you will understand my position better. I am not so combative (at least I don't think so).

Train hard!

Red Beetle

www.kingsportjudo.com
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Old 06-01-2005, 06:59 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
I personally think that it is best to learn proficiently the 67 official throws of Judo before embarking on a serious study of Aikido projections. It doesn't seem that many agree with me on this point at this forum.
I like what you've said so far, and the 3 sisters story was pretty neat.

Welcome to the forum, hope we get to train together sometime.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-01-2005, 07:53 AM   #42
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
We did quite a bit French Randori afterwards, in which we would throw once, then our partner throw once, then we throw once, etc. I grabbed a guy I hadn't been able to play with before, an immature prat that my friend had told me about, and he'd been pretty offensive to and about her while I was there too... so, I let him try to throw me for about five or ten minutes at a time, while I just stood in kamae posture and did my very best (and, for once, succeeded, lol) to exhibit immovable posture (fudo no shisei, IIRC). All the while asking him things like "What's your favourite throw, do that one... what's your best throw, try that (all the while keeping a pleasant demeanour), I tell you what, I don't know much Judo, show me some of the easiest throws that you need to do for yellow belt (and I didn't let him do them sucessfully, was just an immovable uke for him... he was a green belt btw)... eventually he gives up, and says, you have a go, so I throw him once, quickly but safely, and say "Your go again", and this goes on for ages... Perhaps mean of me, but I think he deserved it. I'll admit to "helping" him to get up (using sankyo) a few times (gently, but enough that it hurt just a little)... does this make me a bad Aikidoka?
You are a jackass, you are not supposed to resist in that type of randori, if you did not like him you should not have practiced with him. And you helped him up using sankyo, LOL, please come practice with me and try that stuff.
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Old 06-02-2005, 02:01 PM   #43
Pankration90
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Blah. So that's that.
I have a feeling that I may need Judo to have strong Aikido.
Here's something to think about: Ueshiba and most of his top students had experience in other arts prior to training in aikido. Some trained judo, sumo, etc. Ueshiba himself trained in several styles of jujitsu before making aikido. I may be way off here (I've never trained in aikido), but to get to a high level of aikido where it can be applied easily, training in a harder style and experience with fully resisting opponents might be needed.

I agree with what Monty Collier said about first learning to grapple at close range (on the ground and in the clinch), and then branching outwards. It is a lot easier to close the distance than it is to maintain it.
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Old 06-02-2005, 05:07 PM   #44
Keith R Lee
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Monty Collier wrote:

He said,
"Jiu-jitsu, Judo, and Aikido are like three sisters."

"Jiu-jitsu is the Oldest sister. She has a bad temper and likes to fight. She is only interested in winning fights. She has fought many times and knows what is effective from countless experiences. Since she will fight anyone, she must have excellent technique to secure victory. You know what to expect when she comes for you, but still, it is not easy to stop her. And, if you had to be in a fight, you would want her standing next to you, and on your side."

"Judo is like Jiu-jitsu's younger sister. She is more interested in competing in events and not actual combat. She is more interested in the glory of competition, and not always survival. But she can and will fight if pushed. Years of training and competition has made her tough. And remember, she grew up with big sis who taught her a few tricks."

"Aikido is the youngest sister. She is not interested in war or competition, but she is familiar with its background. She seeks a peaceful solution always. She is also the most beautiful of her sisters. She is very graceful to watch. You always feel good just being in her presence. But, she is not incapable of defense. She can manage quite well on her terms, and she is very tricky. Even still, one should be aware that even if she fails, she still has two older sisters who jealously guard and watch over her. Because they are all sisters, then you can bet that they are not far from her."
That is a great, great story/analogy.

Sounds about right to me too.

Don't worry if some of the folks here get a little defensive about things. It's always good to have other grapplers on the the board.

Keith Lee
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Old 06-03-2005, 09:07 AM   #45
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Actually that description is pretty misleading. Traditional Japanese jiu jitsu does not hold up to Judo when it comes to actual combat due to the training methods. If you knew the history of kodokan Judo you would understand that Judo beat Jiu Jitsu is almost every challenge match. I would put Jiu Jitsu more in the catagory of Aikido.

The thing you do not understand about Judo is that the competition is what makes it combat effective not the opposite.
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Old 06-03-2005, 03:41 PM   #46
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Michael,

Curious from what experience you are drawing your conclusions from on jiu jitsu? I think it would really depend on the jiujustsu system you are talking about.

I believe Kano derived Judo from jiujutsu and alot of that was based on politics and philosophical differences based on the time and climate in Japan.

It is possible that Kano improved upon Jiujutsu, but since it would essentially be a derivative, I find it hard to believe that it would be more combat effective.

Diato Ryu is a form of jiu jutsu, BJJ is a form of Jiu justsu...I do not put them in the same category as aikido really if you look at it that way.

I used to think that competition ALWAYS watered down the combat effectiveness of a system. Now I think that it is immaterial. Some competition is good. The problem with it is perspective. If you focus solely on the "game" you may not gain all the "combat" aspects of the art.

That said, I am skilled enough at this stage to be able to do both and recognize the difference between the game and reality, so I don't think it hurts at all. I think there are some very good skills you get out of competition. You just have to be careful and have a good instructor that knows the difference.

I know from my karate that I was taught the first couple of years to turn my fist all the way over and expose my back cause you got more distance and could "score points" witth less risk for your opponent to "hit" you. Not to pick on TKD guys, but I have worked with many that really do not understand "real hitting and kicking" and make mistakes that would get them in trouble in a real fight. Usually they are beginners. Once you get up in rank and gain experience, you can figure it out, and the skills you learned about distance, speed, and timig are equally important.

Again, I think it is all about perspective and balance.
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Old 06-03-2005, 06:59 PM   #47
Pankration90
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
It is possible that Kano improved upon Jiujutsu, but since it would essentially be a derivative, I find it hard to believe that it would be more combat effective.

Diato Ryu is a form of jiu jutsu, BJJ is a form of Jiu justsu...I do not put them in the same category as aikido really if you look at it that way.
The reason why many (myself included) feel that judo training is better than traditional jujitsu training is because of the emphasis on randori. Kano took all of the stuff that couldn't be done full force on a partner and put those into kata, and used what was left for randori.

BJJ came from judo, not jujitsu.
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Old 06-03-2005, 09:26 PM   #48
CNYMike
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Phillip Kirkan wrote:
Here's something to think about: Ueshiba and most of his top students had experience in other arts prior to training in aikido. Some trained judo, sumo, etc. Ueshiba himself trained in several styles of jujitsu before making aikido. I may be way off here (I've never trained in aikido), but to get to a high level of aikido where it can be applied easily, training in a harder style and experience with fully resisting opponents might be needed.
It's also true that thanks to his stringent entrance requirements, prior to world war 2, Aikido was mainly the province of a relatively small group of people in the upper echelons of Japanese society. When things changed such that anyone walking in the doore could learn it, this allowed for the art to propogate all over the world so that millions of people (including a lot of Aikiweb people) could learn it.

The surest way to kill off a martial art is to keep it secret. Systems have vanished from the face of the Earth because they were kept secret, or worse, not taught at all, and died with their last adherants. It's one thing to crosstrain in a harder system if that's your choice. But I role my eyes at any idea that smacks of restricting the pool of people who can take Aikido. Because that way lies killing off the art.
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Old 06-04-2005, 04:32 AM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Thanks for the perspective Phillip. I would tend to agree with you on randori, that has been my experiences outside of judo with BJJ. I've never seen much about Mitsuo Maeda's (Count Koma) background other than he studied judo or jiujustsu. I believe he did both. I could see where he got the randori stuff from, and I would tend to agree that it was probably judo. Hard to say which art influenced him more not being there and seeing him.

Doesn't really matter I suppose!
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Old 06-04-2005, 03:53 PM   #50
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Actually that description is pretty misleading. Traditional Japanese jiu jitsu does not hold up to Judo when it comes to actual combat due to the training methods. If you knew the history of kodokan Judo you would understand that Judo beat Jiu Jitsu is almost every challenge match. I would put Jiu Jitsu more in the catagory of Aikido.

The thing you do not understand about Judo is that the competition is what makes it combat effective not the opposite.
Fusen Ryu Jiu-jitsu wiped out the Kodokan.
Kano had to buy off the Fusen ryu clan to save face.
If you can't beat them, buy them.

When I say Jiu-jitsu I am referring to Gracie Jiu-jitsu, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Kosen Judo, or the old Fusen Ryu. When I am referring to all of the other traditional Japanese versions, then I use the spelling: ju-jutsu, ju-jitsu. My description, with this in mind, in my opinion, is fairly accurate.

Modern Olympic Judo is not combat ready, unless the practitioner is innovative enough to alter some of the techniques. Or, unless he has cross trained in Jiu-jitsu (note my spelling). I have known very good modern Judo players to get into fights and throw wild flurries of punches. When they were done fighting, I asked them, "why didn't you do any of your Judo?" The guy answered, "Because I was in a fight." I returned, "Yeah, go think about that."

Red Beetle.
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