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Old 03-31-2004, 09:53 AM   #26
Michael Karmon
Dojo: Aikido Jerusalem
Location: Jerusalem Israel
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 56
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Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
Yep - but whilst serving their Lord (ie before becoming Ronin) they did not fight specifically to protect their lives; in fact 'mutual death' was thought to be very honourable in battle.
Mutual death was a very honorable option but I believe that death of old age can be even more honorable.

Now seriously, as a veteran soldier I can accept sacreficing your life for the greater good and for the sake of honour and country but, as my sergeant said, "Let THEIR mamas cry".
Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
However each one of us will die, our families and friends will die - in fact all humans will die. So what you are talking about is a short term solution; in my view it is far better to live however you (personally) feel is best for you, rather than to worry about right/wrong or survival.

(is that weird enough for you?)

Ian
Man, you are damn depressing, "we are all gona die so why bother"

I think your are BS-ing us or you should see therapist, like ASAP.

Eat, Sleep, Exercise and watch out for cars
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Old 03-31-2004, 10:13 AM   #27
Chad Sloman
 
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I don't understand. Why do we have to kill our attacker? Why do we have to use more force than is warranted? If we have the tools to bring peaceful resolution from conflict, then why don't we use them?

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 03-31-2004, 10:22 AM   #28
Michael Karmon
Dojo: Aikido Jerusalem
Location: Jerusalem Israel
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Quote:
Chad Sloman wrote:
I don't understand. Why do we have to kill our attacker? Why do we have to use more force than is warranted? If we have the tools to bring peaceful resolution from conflict, then why don't we use them?
No one said you had to kill your attacker. I think the question was 'to what extent will you go to prevent harm from a real attacker'

To the most of what I have been reading, most say that they will us enough force to stop him but would hurt the oponent rather be hurt themselfs.

Personally I believe in the old Haiku "Don't start nothing there will be nothing'

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Old 03-31-2004, 10:45 AM   #29
Chad Sloman
 
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Quote:
Michael Karmon wrote:
No one said you had to kill your attacker. I think the question was 'to what extent will you go to prevent harm from a real attacker'

To the most of what I have been reading, most say that they will us enough force to stop him but would hurt the oponent rather be hurt themselfs.

Personally I believe in the old Haiku "Don't start nothing there will be nothing'
what scenario could you paint where you would be given that choice? When do I ever have to choose let myself be hurt or hurt my attacker? Once I have gained dominance over my attacker, I choose to cause major harm or not. I choose not.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 03-31-2004, 12:41 PM   #30
Taliesin
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For myself I voted somewhat necessary. Although I must point out that whilst according to Dave Organ, Candian Law says you can only use the minimum force necessary in the UK (England & Wales particularly)the rules are you can use 'reasonable force' (a question of fact in each individual case) and are not required to 'judge matters to a nicety'.

At the end of the day I personally feel that my entitlement to prevent someone hurting or injuring me is far more important than their 'right' to avoid being hurt by someone they attack. I do believe that it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.

As far as the argument that placing a value on your own life can make cowards of us all I would say, it's sensible to value your life. But that doesn't mean that you wouldn't risk your life for something you percieve to be of greater value. In particular home and family.

Besides failuring to do anything effective to defend yourself from an attacker, means that not only will you be a victim but others are more likley to as well.

Just my thoughts
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Old 04-01-2004, 01:51 AM   #31
Michael Karmon
Dojo: Aikido Jerusalem
Location: Jerusalem Israel
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Quote:
Chad Sloman wrote:
what scenario could you paint where you would be given that choice? When do I ever have to choose let myself be hurt or hurt my attacker? Once I have gained dominance over my attacker, I choose to cause major harm or not. I choose not.
Chad,

Here is an example:

a few years ago, While riding a bus, a group of young punks, 15-16 years old, went on and started bulling some of the older passangers. I decided that I will not pretend that I am deaf(I am not very clever). I started to get their attention.

After a very enjoyable mutual bad-mouthing (I was hoping that it will be the end of the confrontation) they began to get phisical. BTW,At that time I was doing Kung-Fu. I warned them once, and on the second go at me I smacked one guy over the mouth and grabbed the other in a wrist hold. That was that, the smacked one sat down in shock and the other one pleaded his release. Every one went off on the station and that was that.

Now, I was well within the bounderies of the law to punch in punk #1's face and give #2 a broken wrist. I didn't because they were punks and no real threat to me.

Eat, Sleep, Exercise and watch out for cars
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Old 04-01-2004, 12:55 PM   #32
Matt Gallagher
Dojo: Shudokan
Location: UK
Join Date: May 2003
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I have heard very high ranking Sensei say "I cannot demonstrate real Aikido since it is a deadly art" (or words to that effect) and have also heard that O Sensei shared this sentiment. I took that to mean that real Aikido is about life and death - not that surprising when you consider the origins of the art - and not to mean that the aforementioned Sensei could not show the appropriate level of control when practising Aikido (for real or in training). I voted 'Critically Important' because by training I hope to achieve such mastery of myself in any situation as to have the choice of life, death or anywhere in between.

Zanshin
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Old 04-01-2004, 10:49 PM   #33
Chad Sloman
 
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Michael, it sounds to me like you used excellent aikido in your situation. Did you not want to cause them physical pain? Maybe I'm coming from somewhere else on this, but it reminds me of my high school football coach. He would ask us when we were laying on the field after being creamed: are you hurt or injured? Two very different things. I find it critically important not to injure my attackers but I don't feel bad if they hurt. Pain is our friend in aikido, it tests the resolve of our attacker and gives them an out before getting injured. I do agree that if an attacker injures themselves because of resistance to technique or not knowing how to fall, that it's not our fault. I just don't like the idea of using more force than necessary, ie breaking bones, snapping necks, etc. Just because I plant a good atemi and somebody might get a black eye, doesn't mean that I wasn't loving them at the same time. But if I was poking out my fingers and gouging out their eyeballs, that would be a different story.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 04-02-2004, 02:11 PM   #34
Doka
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Yes Chad,

Reasonable force!

But what is that if they are intent on killing you?
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Old 04-02-2004, 04:56 PM   #35
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Quote:
Mark Dobro (Doka) wrote:
He may be attacking out of rage, drugs, alchohol, stupidity, mental illness, etc! They don't give a thought to winning!

I think that you missed the dry humour in my post! Dry in that it is so true! You may have to break the everyday law to stay alive! In the UK they call it reasonable force!

True!!??

Not true; sorry.

A person may be out oh his head as described; but regardless of the attacker's mindset; he believes a)he is right and b)he can get away with it. For reference; I've dealt with all the types you described: the drunk, the drugged, the enraged, the mentally ill (and that is often a misnomer; an excuse for antisocial behaviour. I'm talking about genuine mental illness here.) In each case; the above holds true.

As for breaking the law; the law is specific on the matter; remember that you have to get through a jury's interpretation of the law. A defence lawyer can take your testimony and make you seem to be the bad guy provoking his poor innocent client. Remember also that if you break the law; you are by definition a criminal; regardless of your percieved justification. You can easily become the bad guy in such a situation.

Physical SD skills should be used for only one purpose - to achieve breakaway; nothing more.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 04-03-2004, 01:30 AM   #36
villrg0a
 
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i voted critically important


Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Saudi Yoshinkan Dojo
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Old 04-03-2004, 06:52 AM   #37
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
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Please let me correct something I said above. In my last post I said:
Quote:
A person may be out oh his head as described; but regardless of the attacker's mindset; he believes a)he is right and b)he can get away with it.
I maintain the point; but He believes he is right is incorrect at best - a better term would be "He believes he has justification".

Sorry 'bout that.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 04-19-2006, 06:11 PM   #38
Lucy Smith
Dojo: Samurai Dojo
Location: Montevideo
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 138
Uruguay
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Re: Poll: How important a goal in your aikido training is the notion of defending yourself while minimiz

Regardless of the attacker's state of mind, I'm a 16 year old girl who's just not going to stop and think "oh, he's not bad, he didn't mean to try and rape me, he's got mental issues". No, I''m gonna beat the crap out of him. Wait, don't think that anyone who just looks at me funny will get that, the thing is, what was he trying to do? If he just wanted my back pack, of course I'll just apply a pin as "politely" as I can and run away. But if it's late at night and he does some really agressive atempt to grab me or something that's not just to get some money, then I won't pitty him at all. When he's at the floor, I'll just keep kicking his face untill I know he's unconcious and then spray his face with my pepper spray and call the police.

I know this may not be the Aikido spirit, but the world is not perfect and some people are just to mean to let them get away with it. We can't just let go those sort of people because the next girl will probably not know Aikido at all...
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