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Old 03-24-2004, 10:33 AM   #1
akiy
 
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Minimizing Damage

Is the notion of defending yourself from a physical aggressor while minimizing/negating any damage done to the attacker is a goal of your aikido training?

Do you think you can do such now consciously and controllably? If not, how much longer in your training would you say such a goal might take to reach? If you can, how long do you think it might take people to achieve such abilities?

Lastly, is such a goal realistic?

Jun

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Old 03-24-2004, 06:24 PM   #2
Don_Modesto
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Re: Minimizing Damage

Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
1--Is the notion of defending yourself from a physical aggressor while minimizing/negating any damage done to the attacker is a goal of your aikido training?

2--Do you think you can do such now consciously and controllably? If not, how much longer in your training would you say such a goal might take to reach? If you can, how long do you think it might take people to achieve such abilities?

3--Lastly, is such a goal realistic?
1--No. My goal is to improve the automaticity of my technique and get into that "zone" where things just hypnotically flow.

2--You've provided no scenarios and it's a huge question. Against a college sophomore with wenches about flashing their wares in a bar carbonating his testosterone, drunk or sober? (Spring Break time in Ft. Lauderdale--Hoo-ah!)

Yeah. I think so.

Against an addled dope fiend drugged insensate to pain compliance techniques?

Doubt it.

3--Such is precisely the goal of several policemen I've trained with and they swear by aikido (making the caveat that in their situation, physical confrontation usually consists of perps resisting arrest rather than trying to attack the officer.)

Last edited by Don_Modesto : 03-24-2004 at 06:29 PM.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:42 PM   #3
Alan Lomax
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Jun,

First question; Yes.

Second question; Yes. Each individual has their own pace. I think my feeling of this kind of control has taken a very long time. Others may develope the kind of control you are asking in just a few years, maybe less. I'm kind of slow and perhaps under the scrutiny of others, I may not be percieved to have this kind of control. the fun part is, it's my lie so I'll tell it the way I like.

Lastly; Absolutely

Regards

Alan Lomax
Doumukai Aikido
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:49 PM   #4
Jamie Stokes
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Question Collateral damage

Hello All,

As with Modesto-san,

1- It was one of my primary goals, but slides up and down the list. Still, its nice to know some techniques that I can use on a drunk relative at a family get together. (as attributed to Terry Dobson, who used this once or twice)

2-I'd lean with Modesto-san. depends on circumstances ( sounds like a cop out, but its true.) Taking the example of drunk relative at a party. He's creating a nuisance, I go for some thing harmless like a nikyo, he turns in reflex and dislocates his shoulder. I can try and follow, but Aikido Ukes are trained to follow safely. Joe or Jane citizen usually don't.

Against a committed "perp" or criminal who is drugged up, I would move up the scale of techniques, and definitely have zero hesitation about being a bad aikidoka if I feared for my life (or a spouse, partner, child etc.)

3- That is my goal, but I still recall the first time I saw Aikido. The demonstrator sidestepped a bokken strike and continued the strike back to Ukes gonads. (Uke hopped out of the way

)

I still like the thought of redirecting strikes back to Uke, and it would be interesting , in court say, for testimony to be read that all of the defendants bruises match exactly his fists, also badly bruised. while I don't have a bruise on me.

That is fantasy, I know. (sigh)

But not having to do a combination a TKD hit hit kick backspin kick stomp when a simple side step would suffice is my preferred choice.

Warmest regards,

Jamie Stokes.
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Old 03-25-2004, 05:46 AM   #5
Mary Eastland
 
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1st question. Yes

2nd part. Yes, because I have only been attacked physically once since I have been training and Aikido was my response. I not only took care of myself but very gently put my attacker on the ground. When I did kokyu nage my center kicked in and all my anger and aggression went away and I felt peace in the middle of great emotional conflict.

I think the goal is realistic because Aikido is so much more to me than just technique.

Mary Eastland

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Old 03-25-2004, 06:10 AM   #6
aikidocapecod
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Jun Asked

Is the notion of defending yourself from a physical aggressor while minimizing/negating any damage done to the attacker is a goal of your aikido training?

Yes. Originally, I began my study of Aikido to help me learn to control myself. Physically. All the reading I did prior to entering into the world of Aikido told me that if you can control yourself as taught in Aikido, you will be able to defend yourself without destroying one who attacks.

Jun asked

Do you think you can do such now consciously and controllably? If not, how much longer in your training would you say such a goal might take to reach? If you can, how long do you think it might take people to achieve such abilities?

I have learned to control myself. Though I hope I never need to test what I have learned to answer this question, I know my first response to an attack would not be to try and send the attacker to the hospital. In my own opinion, I think the time it takes to develop the capability to reach the goal of minimal injury to an attacker is different for all. Some I have practiced with practice for the sheer joy of the movement and self control. Others seem to really get off on how much of an "OUCH" they can get when applying nikkyo.

So...to answer Jun's question, for each person it will take until they reach the point of knowing they can be calm and relaxed when facing a serious attack.

Lastly, is such a goal realistic?

If the person enters Aikido training with that goal in mind, then yes....it is an attainable goal.
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Old 03-25-2004, 09:12 AM   #7
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IMHO, minimizing damage is an excellent and realistic goal to set for training.

All goals are just directions by which to focus your daily training. If we focus on the proper training, with time, we can meet and surpass the goal.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:06 AM   #8
Don_Modesto
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Re: Collateral damage

Quote:
Jamie Stokes wrote:
....I would move up the scale of techniques, and definitely have zero hesitation about being a bad aikidoka if I feared for my life (or a spouse, partner, child etc.)--1

....I still like the thought of redirecting strikes back to Uke, and it would be interesting , in court say, for testimony to be read that all of the defendants bruises match exactly his fists, also badly bruised. while I don't have a bruise on me.--2
1--I agree. This will probably register as one of those irritating responses taking literally a figure of speech which we don't really mean literally, but I would qualify that "bad aikidoka" thing. The physical damage we do to an aggressor may pale to the damage we do his conscience allowing him to hurt someone (us, e.g.) That is, keeping someone from hurting another, even if it means hurting him, is not bad aikido.*

(Apologies to Mr. Stokes. I doubt that he meant anything different than this, but this aikido-ese verbal tic "we don't hurt our enemies" can sink into and taint our ethics, I think. Once in a while we need to take account of the fact that mercy presupposes victory and this aspiration to harmony is laid on a bedrock of martial effectiveness.)

2--I've wondered about this. How often have we seen tests where NAGE confidently secures the knife from UKE and then casually pantomimes slitting his throat? That would be TWO felonies: UKE's original assault with intent to kill and then UKE's murder. That is, the law does not allow a victim to counter-attack a perp with the weapon just removed from him/her.

But what of that clever SANKYO variation where, ducking the arm, we simply direct UKE's thrust back into his own rib-cage? One hasn't removed the weapon and deployed it in a separate attack...

*This has a long tradition in Eastern thought through the idea of "Skillful Means" in Buddhism; I believe "UPAYA" is the Sanscrit term. Fred Little could expand on this much better than I should he be reading and willing.

Last edited by Don_Modesto : 03-25-2004 at 10:08 AM.

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Old 03-25-2004, 10:29 AM   #9
Sharon Seymour
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I originally signed up for an introductory Aikido course with a friend. We had both been attacked on the street and wanted to take some action for ourselves. These days, although that original goal is surely on the list, my focus has changed to "not being there" or "sen sen no sen," using awareness in anticipating potential problems.

For me, using Aikido psychologically and verbally has been much more frequent than any physical applications. Again, this is an awareness application. My main concern in considering physical application of technique is the damage that could occur to an untrained (and involuntary!) uke.

One of my little ones - an 8-year-old girl - recently brought this story to class. She was at a spring break day camp and "the biggest fifth grade girl" was teasing her and trying to take her hat. She used kata dori undo (known in kids class as "keep the fly from landing on your nose") to keep her opponent from getting to the hat. My student reported, "Boy, was she surprised when I did *this*" (shomenuchi undo). Evidently she found an opening as her opponent became discouraged and extended strongly into her space. We discussed how bullies are often quite cowardly and can be surprised and scared off by an irimi movement. So "yup" to question three.

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Old 03-30-2004, 03:54 PM   #10
Paula Lydon
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~~I like the idea of not hurting anyone if possible, but don't practice with this foremost in mind. My interest is in the principles of perfect movement, timing, etc. In the Aikido approach these principles seem to lean to peaceful resolution and if I'm ultimately wired that way, great! Right now I know that when push comes to shove I'll go into autopilot, without conscious thought, as such, and that's fine with me because part of my internal training is to accept the moment as it unfolds without judging good or bad for myself or the other~~

~~Realistic? What is except the moment? And that will present itself as it will; the master may fall and the novice find enlightenment...

~~Paula~~
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Old 03-30-2004, 10:28 PM   #11
Nafis Zahir
 
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Jun,

As I stated in the other thread, that depends on the attacker. The attacker is the one who can minimize the damage. No attack, no damage. If he attacks, his agression is sent back to him or somewhere else. If he can take good ukemi and quell his agression instantly, than the damage in minimal. I'm not going to search for a technique that I think may be suitable for less damage. The response will be instant and without thought. The rest is on them. Of course, I'm speaking of an attack on the street and not an uke in the dojo.

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Old 04-02-2004, 07:21 AM   #12
crand32100
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Just try to develop as many options as possible. If the only ones that you learn end up destroying people, when maybe it wasn't necessary, then maybe you could have done something else.

TC
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Old 04-02-2004, 11:06 AM   #13
aikidoc
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A former student of mine used the term "least harm possible", which I like.
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Old 04-05-2004, 11:44 PM   #14
John Matsushima
 
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Imagine what the world would be like if all wars could be fought without violence, if the military had tactics like that of AIKIDO which could change violent opponents into peaceful people without causing injury or death. AIKIDO has taught me that all life is sacred, even that of my enemy. To some, this may seem far fetched, which is why AIKIDO seems to be a martial art way ahead of its time.

That is my dream, and what I practice for in the Dojo everyday. When I can live my life without getting angry at people who are rude to me, who cut me off in traffic, threaten me or attack me; when I can act sincerely out of love and not aggressively or passively; when i can get the courage to go out and meet my next door neighbors and be friendly to everyone I meet, and not just the people I like, then maybe I will be able to make that dream come true. I hope that day comes quickly.

As long as we wait for a reason to be violent, then one will always be there. Hate cannot be eliminated, but it can be replaced by love. The techniques of AIKIDO give us a way to make this dream a reality.

Sincerely,

John Matsushima
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Old 04-06-2004, 04:20 AM   #15
aikidocapecod
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John,

Thank you....Well said...
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:25 PM   #16
Largo
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Re: Minimizing Damage

Jun[/quote]
Quote:
Is the notion of defending yourself from a physical aggressor while minimizing/negating any damage done to the attacker is a goal of your aikido training?
No. Not really. I don't particularly worry about that. I'm more concerned with ending the situation swiftly. If they get hurt, that is the price they pay for their behavior. On the other hand, I'm not necessarily out for maiming either.
Quote:
Do you think you can do such now consciously and controllably?
That's a tough one. If I threw someone for real on a hard surface, they would get hurt. If someone at a shihan's level threw someone with all of their skill, mats or not, something would be getting broken. We do a lot of throws that could easily lead to back or neck injury.
Quote:
Lastly, is such a goal realistic
Not really. It's an ideal. I've gotten hurt doing real honest hard commited attacks, because when everything goes into the attack, it's hard to stop and do ukemi.And this was in a dojo on mats. On elsewhere, I wouldn't have gotten off so lightly
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Old 04-08-2004, 07:47 AM   #17
jxa127
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Jun asked:
Quote:
Is the notion of defending yourself from a physical aggressor while minimizing/negating any damage done to the attacker a goal of your aikido training?
Yes, this is the absolute ideal goal of my training.
Quote:
Do you think you can do such now consciously and controllably?
I've done it once, but that was in a "drunk friend" kind of situation. I ended up with a big bruise on my side from where I ran into a chair while doing my tenkan. He ended up with a little bit of pain from the fall and pin, but was unhurt.

I would like to think that I would do as well under more threatening circumstances, but I'll continue to train -- just in case. ;--)
Quote:
Lastly, is such a goal realistic?
Yes, the goal is realistic. I believe one must train consistently and with some introspection. Minimizing damage is a worthy and attainable goal, but it will take a lot of practice to get there. One key component of training that I think is necessary to reach that goal is learning how we might severely injure our opponents with the technique we learn. Knowing how to do that, we can then choose not to.

Just some thoughts,

----
-Drew Ames
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Old 04-08-2004, 01:44 PM   #18
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
But what of that clever SANKYO variation where, ducking the arm, we simply direct UKE's thrust back into his own rib-cage? One hasn't removed the weapon and deployed it in a separate attack...
That's not a technique, that's a "oops, sorry, didn't mean for you to stick yourself with your own knife"...

Otherwise known as "I don't know what happened your honor, he came running up to me, bent his wrist in some funny way and stabbed himself. You can check the knife...MY fingerprints aren't on it...he must be trained in Silat..."

Or some such thingy...

RT

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Old 04-08-2004, 11:45 PM   #19
shihonage
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Re: Minimizing Damage

Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Is the notion of defending yourself from a physical aggressor while minimizing/negating any damage done to the attacker is a goal of your aikido training?
Yes, but only on a person who hasn't been in many fights, an average female (oh no, I'm sexist !), a drunk relative, or a person who's severely emotionally invested.

Quote:
Do you think you can do such now consciously and controllably?
Yes, but only on a person who hasn't been in many fights, an average female (oh no, I'm sexist !) or a drunk relative.
Quote:
If not, how much longer in your training would you say such a goal might take to reach?
With someone like my sister or my untrained buddy attacking me, I can already deal with that sort of thing with minimal damage.

When someone who KNOWS how to fight attacks me, I will NEVER reach the goal of not hurting them during my entire lifetime.

Plus, my survival takes priority over theirs.

I can only give priority to minimizing their damage after I'm confident of my ability to minimize their damage to me.

Quote:
If you can, how long do you think it might take people to achieve such abilities?


I dont think anyone can use Aikido on a good fighter without having to hurt them. Ever. At any point.
Quote:
Lastly, is such a goal realistic?
No.

Last edited by shihonage : 04-08-2004 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 04-09-2004, 03:07 AM   #20
taras
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I don't see any contradiction between the first question in the original post by Jun and the first paragraph in Don's post.

My goal is to improve my technique and I hope that in a real fight I should use Aikido moves to resolve a situation and minimise the damage to both myself and attacker.

I have used takedowns a few times, instead of knocking my attacker out I put them in a pin. Practice of Aikido gave me a choice there. Although it is impossible to say what one would do in a given situation. You don't know untill you get there. i don't think there could be a universal answer to that one.
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Old 04-09-2004, 01:35 PM   #21
Anders Bjonback
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I don't know if it's realistic or not, but it's what attracted me to aikido in the first place, and it's what keeps me in it when I question myself doing a martial art when I should instead be cultivating compassion for all sentient beings. It isn't necessarily the "goal" of my training, though.

"For peace and happiness are presences, not objects we can grasp and hold onto."
--Lilian Smith
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Old 04-10-2004, 08:09 AM   #22
Jesse Candy
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<i>Is the notion of defending yourself from a physical aggressor while minimizing/negating any damage done to the attacker is a goal of your aikido training..., is such a goal realistic?</i>

One of the things that I like about aikido is its realistic view towards violence. The only potentially violent situations I've been in sense reaching adulthood are drunk relatives or friend's drunk relatives. How do you tell your best friend that you had to break his uncle's leg?

I don't think there is a no-holds-bared situation for most of us these days. I've known enough lawyers to know that if you really hurt someone in a bar fight there is a good chance that the person you hurt will at lest try to sue you.

Unless you're a combat soldier, learning to minimize damage is probably the only realistic goal.
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Old 04-11-2004, 06:33 AM   #23
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Question

Is the notion of defending yourself from a physical aggressor while minimizing/negating any damage done to the attacker is a goal of your aikido training?

Answer

Yes

Question

Do you think you can do such now consciously and controllably? If not, how much longer in your training would you say such a goal might take to reach? If you can, how long do you think it might take people to achieve such abilities?

No, IMHO this is the highest form of Aikido, in my case, it'll be a very very long time.

Lastly, is such a goal realistic?

Yes - practice...practice..practice


Shuryukan Yoshinkai Aikido
Saudi Yoshinkan Dojo
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