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Old 03-24-2004, 11:32 AM   #1
akiy
 
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Speed and Quickness

How often do speed and quickness come into play in your aikido training?

In what forms do speed and quickness get developed in your aikido training?

How important do you think speed and quickness are in the long run?

-- Jun

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Old 03-24-2004, 03:59 PM   #2
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Speed and Quickness

Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
How often do speed and quickness come into play in your aikido training?

In what forms do speed and quickness get developed in your aikido training?



How important do you think speed and quickness are in the long run?



-- Jun
The longer I train, the less I rely on speed and the more I rely on timing.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 03-24-2004, 05:07 PM   #3
senshincenter
 
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If I may,

Does this then mean that you train only with timings that have no element or require no element of speed and/or quickness? Are attacks executed from so far away and with so much telegraphing (and/or wasted motion), etc., that the only timing required can be one void of speed and/or quickness?

It is a very interesting point really that Mr. Akiyama is bringing up. Precisely because nearly ever other art cultivates a quickness (even if said quickness is achieved through a "smoothness") and still speaks of a need for timing - whereas Aikido, in general, tends to hold that timing settles all issues - even the issue for raw athleticism and the need for speed or short reaction times which is one of its elements.

Undoubtedly timing is the mother of all successful velocities. But I believe it to be unwise to hold then that one only need slow velocities whatever case may rise simply because timing is always relative. My own reasoning and experience takes me in the opposite direction. It is precisely because timing is the mother of ALL successful velocities that I must train in the infinite variables of speed without discrimination toward any (whether such discrimination comes to me via ignorance, tradition, environment, etc., or not).

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-24-2004, 05:25 PM   #4
Nacho_mx
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Speed and quickness come later in Aikido training, it´s developed after endless repetitions and constant practice of the basic techniques. Once you have an acceptable understanding of these, then you can increase the power and speed, also your reactions get quicker. Most novices will try to do the techniques as fast as they can, but it just results in sloppy technique because their balance, footwork and focus first need development and this takes time and patience.
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Old 03-24-2004, 05:55 PM   #5
aikidoc
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Ditto Don.

Timing is extremely important as I age. My observations of speed is that the fast one goes the more likely the technique and control of that technique is likely to deteriorate. Too slow is a problem as well. One of the worst dan tests I ever observed was done with everything very fast. There were no aiki principles used and everything looked sloppy and out of control.
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Old 03-24-2004, 06:59 PM   #6
PeterR
 
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There is an interesting study in contrasts in my group going on at the moment.

Shodokan people tend to be very quick on their feet both attacking and defending. It's how we train, its what we like to do. A while back a Nidan from an (yes I'm being coy) Aikikai sensei whose primary fame is in the West joined our group. He is a study in opposite. Some would call him rooted - I call him heavy.

I really think the question is not so much speed but lightness. Have that and you will have both quickness and timing.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:12 PM   #7
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
David Valadez (senshincenter) wrote:
Does this then mean that you train only with timings that have no element or require no element of speed and/or quickness?

DJM: Can't even conceive of how that would be possible.

Are attacks executed from so far away and with so much telegraphing (and/or wasted motion), etc., that the only timing required can be one void of speed and/or quickness?

DJM: The issue isn't speed here, it's initiative, intuiting the moment UKE moves and taking that initiative away from him. Think eye-flick here or KIAI.

...it to be unwise to hold then that one only need slow velocities whatever case may rise simply because timing is always relative.

DJM: Straw man here, I didn't say this. But if you're using my post as a springboard, help yourself.

My own reasoning and experience takes me in the opposite direction. It is precisely because timing is the mother of ALL successful velocities that I must train in the infinite variables of speed without discrimination toward any (whether such discrimination comes to me via ignorance, tradition, environment, etc., or not).

DJM: Cool jargon but I don't think I follow. Can you make this concrete? Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:14 PM   #8
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
My observations of speed is that the fast one goes the more likely the technique and control of that technique is likely to deteriorate. Too slow is a problem as well. One of the worst dan tests I ever observed was done with everything very fast. There were no aiki principles used and everything looked sloppy and out of control.
Yes. This puts me in mind of an impromptu RANDORI Saotome-Sensei once did after DAN testing in Orlando. By far, he was the slowest mover on the mat and, of course, no one could get at him. He was calm and collected, in no hurry. Lovely.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:31 PM   #9
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I have learned that speed and quickness come from being smooth, and that if you arent smooth; speed and quickness have very little value. I mean... HOW DO YOU THINK THOSE OLD GUYS DO IT??? lol
I dont know if there has been a class that i've gone to with out Sensei pointing out that smoothness is more important than speed.

Last edited by Bushi : 03-24-2004 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 03-24-2004, 11:33 PM   #10
Alan Lomax
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I did not coin this phrase, Clay Cransford did, but the first time it was used in our training, we all agreed it was what we all wanted to say. Clay said in explination to one of our students,"Smooth equals Speed in Aikido".

To me, he couldn't have explained it any better.

Regards

Alan Lomax
Doumukai Aikido
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:11 AM   #11
Jamie Stokes
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Speed: measurement of velocity. eg. A rabbit can run very quickly.

Quickness. Ability to move over a short period of time. eg. the rabbit hopped quickly to the left to dodge the wolf chasing it.

Speed (thought one.) The quicker (/faster) an object moves, the longer it takes to change direction. (your car, taking a corner at 55mph/ kmh compared to taking the same corner at 5.5 mph/kmph.)

Speed.(Thought 2) Remember the physics of MASS. a 210 kg Uke will have a different momentum to 55 kg uke. Bowling balls as opposed to tennis balls.

Other have quoted speed makes for sloppy technique. I agree, particularly with regards of mass. (me; big and clumsy)

Lightness. I like that idea, and it is worthy of a whole new thread.

A adjustable controllable speed,being light enough to move when needed.

Speed will come with correct practice.

Anyone can do sloppy technique fast.

Sloppy technique done slow means that you can get taken apart by Uke.

My ten yen worth.

Warmest regards,

Jamie

Aikido: Love and compassion at one metre per second.
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Old 03-25-2004, 07:26 AM   #12
aikidocapecod
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The older I get the slower I get. Really stinks!!!!! But I also find that I have learned to be calm. That allows me to move when Uke thinks about entering my space. I have found that when I attempt to move to quickly, some degree of control is lost.

Attending some of Ikeda Sensei's seminars, he often talks about beginner technique and advanced student technique. He will demostrate the same technique showing how a beginner performs it and how the advanced student performs it. Sensei is not moving any faster in either demostration, but the advanced student technique is done much more quickly because the movements are much smaller and more precise.

Just my observation.
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:07 AM   #13
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, speed and quickness come into my training a lot, every time I do it wrong or sloppy.

Eventually speed and quickness come of their own through proper training. To get faster, go slower.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:51 PM   #14
kensparrow
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Quote:
Larry Murray wrote:
Attending some of Ikeda Sensei's seminars, he often talks about beginner technique and advanced student technique. He will demostrate the same technique showing how a beginner performs it and how the advanced student performs it. Sensei is not moving any faster in either demostration, but the advanced student technique is done much more quickly because the movements are much smaller and more precise.
We were just talking about this after class last night! It only takes an instant to turn your hand over but Ikeda Sensei is able to take your balance with just that much movement.

By the way, Ikeda Sensei will be visiting Methuen Aikido in May if you can make it up this way.

http://www.northeastaikikai.com/meth...ikeda2004.html
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