Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-16-2000, 06:46 AM   #1
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
I have heard many stories about Ueshiba striking lots of pressure points with atemis during techniques- sometimes to the extent that people were semi-conscious during a technique; which surely makes them relaxed enough to blend with. (but maybe these are just stories).

Very recently I have been training with someone who did Chinese boxing, and he was telling me about his instructor that made his body go limp from just pressing on a pressure point on his chest. I feel that pressure points are effective if you hit them correctly and with the right pressure, and also if there are no obstructions such as clothing. This friend also told me about one of the aikido techniques is an ideal set up for a heart stopping technique (which requires 2 pressure points to be hit simultaneously).

Personally I feel there is not enough talk of pressure points in Aikido. I've been shown very few. Is there anywhere I can find out more about pressure points and how to use them effectively, especially within the context of aikido?
(I've currently ordered a book called Dragons Touch - though I'm unsure whether it is really possible to develop effective pressure point techniques without being shown them personally).

Any views on this?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2000, 09:49 AM   #2
MikeE
 
MikeE's Avatar
Dojo: Midwest Center For Movement & Aikido Bukou Dojos
Location: Hudson, WI
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
Offline
Before studying aikido, I studied Ryukyu Kempo for 8 years. It was a hard, vicious style. This form of Kempo has three main components. Twite-jitsu (joint locks), Bunkai (breakdown of kata), and Kyusho-jitsu (nerve strikes). I believe it has aided my atemi-waza. The only problem is that even though I earned my Nidan, I could still only get the reaction I wanted about 50% of the time. It is not easy.

In many cases in aikido we use nerve manipulation as part of the art. Yonkyo is technically kyusho-jitsu. When we practice iriminage, we often use carotid pressure to "pin" uke's head to our chest while performing tenkan.

I think the longer you practice aikido the more the use of these techniques becomes evident. The thing is, the use of kyusho-jitsu in aikido should be an after thought to learning the technique and applying ki correctly.

It should not be used as a short-cut to force techniques to work. This would be contradictory to the entire idea of blending completely, and losing one's self and ego, that is so important to aikido.

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
Aikido Bukou
Dojos
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2000, 10:23 AM   #3
Kevin73
Location: Battle Creek, MI
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 30
Offline
In the previous post I mentioned about pressure points, but I will paraphrase it again on this one.

One of the main things on both joint locks and pressure points is everyone has a different tolerance level to the pain. Some people are called "non-responders" and don't feel it, I am one of those and my dept. Sgt. even joked I should be drug tested because I could go thru the pain. But, with alot of those nerve strikes I would still get the motor dysfunction that the technique was designed for even though the pain didn't hurt too much.

As for the place of them in Aikido, I think alot of that depends on your Sensei's view of atemi in general.

There are some good books out there on pressure points, the main thing is it should teach the spot, the angle, and the method to activate the point. Then get a person and experiment with them and work them into your aikido techniques and realize what ones are open for strikes as you go thru the techniques.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2000, 01:39 PM   #4
Zach Hudson
Dojo: Siskiyou Aikikai and Aikido Habatakukai
Location: Winchester, England
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 7
Offline
Pressure Points

My sensei has recently read Mr. Dillman's work on the application of pressure points to Karate kata (The Dillman Method of Pressure Point Fighting). He has experienced a revelation of sorts, and has begun to look for pressure points in Aikido techniques, and has found at least one pressure point application in every one. I'm convinced. I'm surprised that no one's told me about them before. Pressure points have always been in Aikido- one only need to look for them.

Zach
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2000, 04:27 PM   #5
MikeE
 
MikeE's Avatar
Dojo: Midwest Center For Movement & Aikido Bukou Dojos
Location: Hudson, WI
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
Offline
Dillman is a Ryukyu Kempo instructor. He was originally under Taika Seiyu Oyata the founder of Ryu-Te. I've been to some of his seminars and he is good. But, he is a beginner compared to Taika Oyata. Look up information on him and you will be very impressed.

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
Aikido Bukou
Dojos
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2000, 05:22 PM   #6
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 59
Offline
There was mention previously of a "heart-stopping" pressure point available in an
aikido technique. Suffice to say that there may be such a technique, but the
paradox is, if one employs this, then there are no longer practicing aikido at all,
but then something horribly else. I am always reminded that the heart of aikido is
to blend with the uke's movements and help them complete their actions whilst
maintaining control in a respectful manner. In short, a killing technique would be
an abomination to the art, and both fruitless and ignorant. If aikido is employed
with a serious and thoughtful mind, any situation can be diffused and no injury or
death should occur at all.
-Aiki

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2000, 10:33 AM   #7
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
that was me, my apologies for my crass behaviour. To affect these 'lethal' pressure points must take many years of practise (I can't do it myself), and by that time I'm sure people will have come to repsect the spiritual aspects of aiki. However I am of the school of thought that we should be aware of the potential of the technique, but choose not to use it.

in peace,

Ian
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2000, 11:12 AM   #8
Kevin73
Location: Battle Creek, MI
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 30
Offline
I think it's the responsibilty of any martial artist to learn what their atemi can do so they don't accidentaly injure someone. They should know what their strikes will do both externally (body movement of the opponent) and internally (organs, etc.)

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2000, 12:25 PM   #9
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 59
Offline
I guess my main point was, why even concern with them at all, unless it was purely to satisfy curiousity.
In friendsship,
-Aiki

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2000, 03:14 PM   #10
daedalus
Dojo: Seiryukan Dojo/Illini Aikido
Location: Champaign, IL, USA
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 46
Offline
Pressure Points

Zach, the idea that you haven't heard about pressure points in Aikido is not an uncommon occurance. There is a good article in the aikido faq about this phenomenon (http://www.aikidofaq.com/essays/wall_of_silence.html). Just putting in my two cents.

Brian Lapins

[Edited by daedalus on November 29, 2000 at 02:17pm]
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2000, 01:38 PM   #11
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Atemi Waza/Pressure points

Quote:
ian wrote:
I have heard many stories about Ueshiba striking lots of pressure points with atemis during techniques- sometimes to the extent that people were semi-conscious during a technique; which surely makes them relaxed enough to blend with. (but maybe these are just stories).

Very recently I have been training with someone who did Chinese boxing, and he was telling me about his instructor that made his body go limp from just pressing on a pressure point on his chest. I feel that pressure points are effective if you hit them correctly and with the right pressure, and also if there are no obstructions such as clothing. This friend also told me about one of the aikido techniques is an ideal set up for a heart stopping technique (which requires 2 pressure points to be hit simultaneously).

Personally I feel there is not enough talk of pressure points in Aikido. I've been shown very few. Is there anywhere I can find out more about pressure points and how to use them effectively, especially within the context of aikido?
(I've currently ordered a book called Dragons Touch - though I'm unsure whether it is really possible to develop effective pressure point techniques without being shown them personally).

Any views on this?
Ian:

I have put together an article that was to be published in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. Due to many changes of editors and not telling me for a year that it needed editing it did not yet get published. I am likely to find another source in the near future. I like the quality of their magazine but I don't like the jerking around I got. I worked for a long time and did a major internet survey.

There is a lot of interest in atemi waza and striking pressure points (kyusho jitsu) among aikidoka. It is a very ripe area. I hope to get back to rewriting the article soon and finding a suitable media for publication.

George Dillman's books also talk about striking pressure points.

John
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2001, 02:32 PM   #12
MarcRaeymaekers
Dojo: Ecole de Budo Kobudo Traditionnel
Location: Brussels (Belgium)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4
Offline
ian,

Yes atemi-waza and kyusho-jitsu exists in aikido. It's an heritage from the traditionnal Yagyu and Daito-ryu jujutsu.

I have the same opinion as mike; learn and experience kyusho-jitsu BUT keep in mind that's not the principle point of the technics in aikido. We call that in my school "little technique". To learn to lead flowing ki and to unbalance Uke is more difficult and more efficient. Use atemi and/or kyusho sometimes to disturb Uke
Open your eyes and your heart to other disciplines and stay critical.
Any technics is better than an other, it's only different.

Marc Raeymaekers
Brussels (Belgium)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2001, 11:34 AM   #13
Stu S
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4
Offline
As a beginner, I would like to learn more about pressure points because it seems to me that knowing about them would give additional alternatives. When I want to remind someone that attacking me was an error or a bad idea, being able to respond with a spectrum of pain/compliance techniques would give me alternatives to throwing them on concrete, which I am not confident at this point I could do without injuring them severaly. Even the basic aikido techniques I have learned so far can cause major injury if misapplied or over-applied by a beginner. On concrete just holding on through the end of a throw could do it.

In contrast, with exception of the vital points of the neck and head, it seems to me that most vital points are less susceptible to major injury caused by a beginner amped up on adrenaline in a frightening situation. I understand that part of my aikido education will be to learn to control the fear and the adrenaline. I am far from that now, though. In the meantime, it would be helpful to know where to poke/dig/jab precisely in order to lead to a good outcome with a minimum of damage. I have done some research and practice on this outside of aikido, but I wonder if there isn't some way these techniques could be incorporated to enrich my aikido practice. I am not looking for the magic one-two death poke. Just a persuasive short-duration touch.

Stu S
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2001, 01:28 PM   #14
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Stu S wrote:
As a beginner, I would like to learn more about pressure points because it seems to me that knowing about them would give additional alternatives. When I want to remind someone that attacking me was an error or a bad idea, being able to respond with a spectrum of pain/compliance techniques would give me alternatives to throwing them on concrete, which I am not confident at this point I could do without injuring them severaly. Even the basic aikido techniques I have learned so far can cause major injury if misapplied or over-applied by a beginner. On concrete just holding on through the end of a throw could do it.

In contrast, with exception of the vital points of the neck and head, it seems to me that most vital points are less susceptible to major injury caused by a beginner amped up on adrenaline in a frightening situation. I understand that part of my aikido education will be to learn to control the fear and the adrenaline. I am far from that now, though. In the meantime, it would be helpful to know where to poke/dig/jab precisely in order to lead to a good outcome with a minimum of damage. I have done some research and practice on this outside of aikido, but I wonder if there isn't some way these techniques could be incorporated to enrich my aikido practice. I am not looking for the magic one-two death poke. Just a persuasive short-duration touch.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2001, 01:35 PM   #15
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Atemi Waza/Pressure points

Sorry. This thing didn't work right.

Stu:

Pictures of O'Sensei demonstrate him delivering atemi to pressure or vital points all of the time-see Budo in particular.

Although some disagree with me, striking pressure points can be accomplished with the flowing movements without disrupting the technique. Dillman's books are a good place to start with learning the function of some of the pressure points (release the wrist with triple warmer 3 for example works nicely with kotegaeshi). If you want to study, look for a source book and then when practicing techniques look for ways to strike that flow with the natural movements of the technique.

My opinion is that the transition from art to street technique is atemi waza to pressure points. This allows the principles of aikido to be maintained while aiding in the technique set up.

John
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2001, 06:43 PM   #16
torokun
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, CO
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 11
Offline
Pressure points too hard for application.

I think that the principle of hitting certain areas to disrupt the flow of ki is extremely useful. It can let us know where and when we should strike... But most pressure points are just too hard to strike in a real confrontation... even if your opponent sucks, he'll be moving in some way, trying to avoid getting hurt, and probably be wearing something, so IMHO, it's not really practical to try to hit exact points... just weaker areas, etc...


--torokun
(Trevor)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2001, 01:59 AM   #17
Matt
Dojo: N/A
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 16
Offline
I have to agree with Trevor. If you try using pressure points you had better be real good or be ready to take some damage befor you get it applied right. Once you have a technique applied i guess you could apply a pressure point strike or something but if you have the technique whats the need?
Matt

"It is better to die on your feet
than to live a lifetime on your knees"
Emiliano Zapata
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2001, 04:44 AM   #18
Iwama_Ryu
Dojo: Budo Triangeln
Location: Sweden
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 9
Offline
I've heard about it!!!

One guy in my class biggest brother trained ai,ido for a few years and learned some pressure points it was quite cool to see people just get numb in there body and fall down.

Johannes Davidsoon 6:kyu
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2001, 05:11 AM   #19
RobTrim
Dojo: Kai Shin Kai
Location: UK
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 13
Offline
Pressure Points

Hi Forum!

I'm a brand new member and just thought I'd chip in here, I'm particularly interested in this topic.

I have to disagree with some of the comments that have been dismissing Kyusho techniques as unfeasble to 'pull off', in a real situation. When I first started Aikido I was sceptical that I could ever possibly have as much skill as my Sensei or my chief instructor, or be able to get such complience and control of uke through technique. I'm sure this initial feeling is true to many of you, and any other beginner in any other martial art - including the study of kyusho.

The fact is, if you train a certain way, you will more likely respond in that way when attacked. Unless the attacker is wearing a helmet, he will have all head pressure points available, also his hand points. As for clothing on the body, I have spoken to a respectable, very high ranking Kyusho-jitsu Sensei who has activated pressure points through Kevlar! (no joke).

Also those that are of the opinion that kyusho and Aikido are somehow separate, remember that it was Ueshiba Morihei himself who stated that; "..Aikido is 90% atemi.." (this qoute is acurate I think, there are a number of versions ranging between; 50% to 99%). I'm sure he wasn't just blindly throwing in punches then , especially since he studied both Daito-ryu and Yagyu Ryu, the later of which is particularly noted for its Kyusho techniques.

Regards to all,

Rob.










  Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2001, 10:36 PM   #20
Stu S
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4
Offline
Re: Pressure Points

Regarding the difficulty of application, it seems to me that it depends on the particular intent of the attempt. Several points are related to physical features that, on balance, seem like they would be as possible to hit (with practice) as any of several not-so-easy moves in aikido: the bicep, the neck (some danger here!), the outside of the thigh, the achilles tendon, the knee (also danger), the hip, the groin, and the shoulder joint are all likely candidates if the intent is to distract, disrupt, unbalance, or otherwise fiddle with their ki. Also, you can experiment on yourself as one example to see what works, how it feels, how much force is required, and how small the target is. In fact, this instant, I am poking my own thumb into the twelve o-clock position on my pectoral muscle and am too distracted to continue.

I do agree that the advanced points, the ones based less on strictly physical body structures (nerves, muscles etc)and more on TCM (tradional chinese medicine) meridians, and the advanced techniques using these points, seem very difficult to make use of effectively. That statement is provisional to future experience on the mat with someone who knows more about it than I do, though.

Stu S
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2001, 03:55 AM   #21
RobTrim
Dojo: Kai Shin Kai
Location: UK
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 13
Offline
Hi Stu,

I think I qualify for knowing more about kyusho, if only slightly! It's been a study of mine for some time now.

You indicated some 'vital areas' that you would target with atemi; the neck, thigh, knee, bicep etc.. The trouble with this broad area striking is that you're relying on 'brute force' - by that I don't necessarily mean you're using a lot of force, but merely that there is no science or method behind it. You also talk about hitting these places to disrupt Ki. Now where-as you may momentarily cause them to mentally pause, it will not necessarily disrupt their Ki.

I'll give you an example: I was once in a bar with some friends, when a fight broke out and several large bouncers stormed into the middle of it to break it up. In the middle of this one small guy decides to start fighting the Bouncer closest to him. Now I'll give you the stats; Bouncer - 6'2" (approx), 240lbs, obviously with some combat training. Guy - 5'8", 140lbs, no obvious training (from the random way he was swingin'!!). Well the bouncer is obviously annoyed by this little guy, cocks his right hand back and unleashes the most wicked looking right hook I've ever seen, which lands sweetly with an audible thud on the left side of the guys face. What happened next? Did the guy go down? KO? ...none of the above, he merely blinked once and carried on fighting - it later took a headlock to restrain him!

My point is this; all those areas which you pointed out are easily accessible either before, during or after an Aikido technique. Just using the bicep as an example, you have two prime pp's - Pericardium 2 and Heart 2 or P-2 & H-2. The former of which lies dead centre on the bicep about a third of the way up from the elbow and is activated by being struck directly in to the bone. This causes dizziness, lowered blood pressure and even in extreme cases unconsciousness. Its a perfect first atemi for defence against a hook or round house punch.

In fact every one of the areas you defined have numerous points and it would only take a slight adjustment to your training to be aware of them. Even if you then miss the point during a fight, you are still effecting the surrounding areas.

Regards,

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2001, 07:21 PM   #22
jin
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 8
Offline
"What happened next? Did the guy go down? KO? ...none of the above, he merely blinked once and carried on fighting - it later took a headlock to restrain him!"

Yes. Thank you. Alcohol/drugs and adrenaline have an effect on how someone reacts, not just ki. How do you disrupt someones "PCP"? That's why submission is so important. If your up against two people on PCP? Run!

As far as pressure points, it's helped me escape having to tap-out during BJJ practice. A nice stiff finger in the ribs will work, but I'm not so sure about in a real life situation w/adrenaline.

And, I think it would take just as long to learn effective pressure point use as it would to learn effective technique. People often think that there's some magical point on the human body, and if I only knew where it was... It's not that easy.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2001, 04:03 AM   #23
RobTrim
Dojo: Kai Shin Kai
Location: UK
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 13
Offline
Quote:
jin wrote:

[b]Alcohol/drugs and adrenaline have an effect on how someone reacts, not just ki. How do you disrupt someones "PCP"?[/B}

Yes they do, but I vaguely knew the guy causing trouble. He did not take drugs, I can assure you. 'PCP' as you describe isn't an easy thing to come by in my neck of the woods. Also I was in the bar longer than him, and observed that he could only have consumed three beers. I'm only refering to the situation on this night.

As far as pressure points, it's helped me escape having to tap-out during BJJ practice. A nice stiff finger in the ribs will work, but I'm not so sure about in a real life situation w/adrenaline.

Don't take my word for it, visit http://www.kyusho.com and take a look at their forum for some real life, with adrenaline applications. Be open minded in your training, it's not easy to pull off Aikido/BJJ throws, locks submissions ect.. on the street either - unless that's how you train, and even in that case, it's still not easy, just 'easier'.

And, I think it would take just as long to learn effective pressure point use as it would to learn effective technique. People often think that there's some magical point on the human body, and if I only knew where it
was... It's not that easy.


Yes it does. There are no magical points, but there are ones who's use dates back thousands of years. Points that have been documented and maticulously tested. They merely require training, which as you state is not easy. Neither is my Aikido training. In fact, I don't think it would be worth investigating if it wasn't easy!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2001, 04:07 AM   #24
RobTrim
Dojo: Kai Shin Kai
Location: UK
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 13
Offline
Sorry guys,

I appear to have qouted everything there!

Jin, I hope you can decipher all of that!

Rob Trim.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2001, 05:49 AM   #25
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 375
Offline
Quote:
ian wrote:
I have heard many stories about Ueshiba striking lots of pressure points with atemis during techniques- sometimes to the extent that people were semi-conscious during a technique; which surely makes them relaxed enough to blend with. (but maybe these are just stories).

Very recently I have been training with someone who did Chinese boxing, and he was telling me about his instructor that made his body go limp from just pressing on a pressure point on his chest. I feel that pressure points are effective if you hit them correctly and with the right pressure, and also if there are no obstructions such as clothing. This friend also told me about one of the aikido techniques is an ideal set up for a heart stopping technique (which requires 2 pressure points to be hit simultaneously).

Personally I feel there is not enough talk of pressure points in Aikido. I've been shown very few. Is there anywhere I can find out more about pressure points and how to use them effectively, especially within the context of aikido?
(I've currently ordered a book called Dragons Touch - though I'm unsure whether it is really possible to develop effective pressure point techniques without being shown them personally).

Any views on this?
If you are after pressure points I suggest you find a hard style of aikido such as Yoshinkan, Yoseikan or Daito Ryu. The only way to learn and test pressure point techniques is in vigerous training where uke only reacts to severe pain. Why use pressure points if an apponent is totally relaxed?

Most pressure points are easy to use and can make a significant difference to one's techniques.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pressure points and nerve techniques javnitro Techniques 57 01-23-2003 07:44 AM
Aikido's Pressure Points Bruce Baker Techniques 21 07-12-2002 06:13 PM
Gashuko and Deja Vu PeterR General 4 04-30-2002 07:37 PM
Should we teach pressure points in Aikido? Bruce Baker Techniques 77 04-26-2002 08:33 PM
Pressure points and control arvin m. Techniques 8 04-27-2001 10:07 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:48 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate