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Old 03-15-2004, 08:03 AM   #26
Greg Jennings
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I tried to edit the post to clarify, but exhausted my 15 minutes.

I wanted to make a point that the way I have found to maintain connection allows uke a gentle "sit down" sort of ukemi.

I like it because it's very controlled and I get to use their momentum to take them into the pin.

When I take them to a breakfall, I have to "catch them on the first bounce" to take them to the pin. In those brief moments, we're not connected.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-15-2004, 08:55 AM   #27
Chuck Clark
 
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Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
I don't mean an escape versus breaking his wrist. I mean an escape that loses connection (allowing them a breakfall) versus one that stays connected all the way to the pin.

IMHO, a loss of connection is an opening begging to be exploited.

Best,
Greg,

You continue to say things that make me renew the invitation to visit the Jiyushinkan if you're in the valley of the sun. Good stuff.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 03-15-2004, 09:25 AM   #28
ikkitosennomusha
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Quote:
Gary Chase (Dyusan) wrote:
Hi, I don't know if this will help or not but in one dojo where I studied one of the students was a guard in the county lockup. He was at work and one of the inmates tried to stab him. He moved out of the way did kotegaeshi and he and one of our other student who also worked there heard a loud popping sound and then the inmate dropped like a rock. They had to take him to the hospital for repairs. The inmate did not have much time to do anything but fall hard.
Hi Gary!

How was the recent seminar with Sato-sensei? You may not remember but, I was the guy who had problems with the Jacson dojo due to his whole crazy thing he's got going. You should go to their website at www.newlifeaikido.com and check out the "Dojo Rules" tab and you will see why I wanted to come train with you once in a while and test under you. The guy in jackson was looking for a reason to boot me out because I am not of his faith. I am sure sato would not have minded me traveling there but for some reason, you were afraid of taking me?

Currently, I have been trying to work with Moore-meido who as you know is one of Toyoda-shihan's top uchi deshi. Moore-meido has a cool thing going and offers alot. Problem is that I have to travel to chicago often. It would be nice if I could also do AAA and do both but as obvious, your dojo is the only other one in TN.

regards

Brad Medling

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-15-2004 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 03-15-2004, 10:36 AM   #29
L. Camejo
 
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Very interesting thread.

I've seen on one occasion while my sensei was teaching a SD class where a karateka who had no ukemi experience do an almost perfect kotegaeshi ukemi after trying to really land a mune tsuki punch. The only thing he broke was his pocket organiser, which was in his back pocket, but he was shocked at how he actually ended up in that position.

The only other time I saw this was a time I did some sparring with a Judo pal who had no intention of flipping, but had no choice. This was pretty much aigamae katate dori kotegaeshi ura.

Imho even though kotegaeshi is applied on the wrist, the way we learnt it was that it should control the joints (and balance) through the elbow, shoulder and then torso (causing the body to roll naturally as balance goes), up until the knee is even controlled and starts to bend (think I remember reading something about that in Total Aikido by G. Shioda as well). So the body is placed into a position where the ukemi is about the best option for someone so inclined.

Iow, a person with no ukemi experience may just be able to flip in response to a kotegaeshi if they realise that the body is already going in that direction and "feel" they have no choice but to go, another person may react to the same technique by trying to solidify their posture and tense up, resulting in a broken wrist. I guess it may have something to do with the person's natural way of responding to particular stimuli as well. A really huge person with no ukemi training may feel less inclined to respond to an imminent broken wrist by flipping, a smaller, lighter person may not.

Just a few thoughts.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 03-15-2004, 10:41 AM   #30
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
Greg,

You continue to say things that make me renew the invitation to visit the Jiyushinkan if you're in the valley of the sun. Good stuff.
Clark Sensei,

Thank you for the very kind words.

If I'm ever in that area I will definitely be knocking on the door.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-15-2004, 11:06 AM   #31
JMCavazos
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I'm with Greg - why try to flip him when you can take that energy straight down to a pin.



I honestly think that a guy in the street with no ukemi training will try to resist the technique, which will result in a broken wrist, hand, forearm or arm or some/all of the above. I think that someone with training will go into a flip without thinking about it, which may lead you to believe that a guy in the street would flip.
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Old 03-15-2004, 11:58 AM   #32
George S. Ledyard
 
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Kotegaeshi

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
I tried to edit the post to clarify, but exhausted my 15 minutes.

I wanted to make a point that the way I have found to maintain connection allows uke a gentle "sit down" sort of ukemi.

I like it because it's very controlled and I get to use their momentum to take them into the pin.

When I take them to a breakfall, I have to "catch them on the first bounce" to take them to the pin. In those brief moments, we're not connected.

Regards,
Greg,

I have arrived at the same conclusion. I do POlice Defensive Tactics training and as an arrest and control technique, kotegaeshi needs to be done on resistant subjects without injuring them.

The flip or be injured version of this technique is obviously not appropriate here. From your description I would say that we are using the same basic technique at this point... in my DT context the "subject" is dropped on his butt which prevents injury and puts the arm in a position that maintaining control is more likely than if I flipped him.

Also, from an Aikido standpoint, this version is not open to the sacrifice kaeshiwaza described in the earlier posts.

I have found four basic approaches (with tons of variations) to this technique...

1) The "Draw and Cut"double grip, with thumbs controlling the two center knuckles on the partner's hand; execution is like a sword cut and requires movement away from the subject so he is drawn down and out; works fine if you get him stretched out but difficult to get on an opponent who agreesively moves into you rather than resists

2) The Wrist / Elbow Locka grabbing hand on the wrist and a matching hand on the back of the opponetn's hand; the wrist locks in the plane of the palm, if the nage turns his body correctly the lock will also place the ooponent's elbow at risk; this one reuires the break fall if executed well; the problem as I see it is that it isn't that easy to get on an experienced person; I have a couple of students who are so strong that lcoking them this way has virtually NO EFFECT. I am a large and fairly strong person and I am completely unable to torque their wrists and get them to fall. And attemptingto do so results either in being struck before I can accomplish the technique or a counter as described earlier.

3) Wind Them Up same basic grip as the previous but the energy is different inthe hands; insure that the tips of the opponent's fingers are pointing outside his own arm, not directly back at his arm; the grabbing hand actually draws towards you while the matching hand acts to curl the fingers towards the hole right next to the uke; you can tell if you are doing this as opposed to the locking version because the uke falls towards you at your feet rather than away from you; This is very effective and is especially useful for folk who don't have the hand size and strength to crank on wrists.

4) The Whole Body Movement perfecting this one is part my current project of reworking how I do my technique... hand position is as described in the previous but there is no attempt to act on the wrist; I am attempting to use Kuroda Sensei's concept of full or whole body movement to do this; if I do this properly, I use my body movement to guide the uke's arm in to his balance point where I simply apply my body weight causing him to buckle; I think this is the one you are working with Greg; one can tell if they are doing this correctly because there is no increase in pressure by the hands when the throw takes place (those that did the exrecises with Kuroda Sensei at the Expo will have experienced this); I have done this on my student who can stop my strongest locking version and he simply hits the floor with a sort of puzzled look, not quite understanding why he was down. Since this is how people described their experinces being thrown by O-Sensei I feel I am on the right track with this one; the real trick will be to train intensively enough that the total relaxation that it takes to do it right can happen under high pressure and not just in the dojo. Fortunately there seems to be a range of forgiveness here, it doesn't have to be absolutely perfect to work.

My feeling is that many people confuse the martial with the raw kinetic power of some kokyu throws. If they smash the uke down hard, or cause a lot of pain, it must be the martial a version. Kuroda Sensei siad that he was unconcerened with power... he simply led his partner to a place at which he was unable to defend himself and then he cut him. He said he was uninterested in power per se.

This is what I am working on myself. If I can put an opponent down without him being able to stop it or reverse it, I can always follow that up with the kick to his head, the arm break, whatever if I am in a life and death situation... the martial aspect is in putting the opponent in a place in which he can't defend for an instant, then you make the decision of whether to strike him or not.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 03-15-2004 at 12:00 PM.

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Old 03-15-2004, 12:25 PM   #33
Joe Jutsu
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Ledyard Sensei-

Is your third variant titled "Wind Them Up" analagous to the koteoroshi taught in Ki Society, because they no longer do kotegaeishi? Just trying to make some connections. Thanks,

Joe
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Old 03-15-2004, 12:52 PM   #34
George S. Ledyard
 
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Don't Know the Answer

Quote:
Joe Proffitt (Joe Jutsu) wrote:
Ledyard Sensei-

Is your third variant titled "Wind Them Up" analagous to the koteoroshi taught in Ki Society, because they no longer do kotegaeishi? Just trying to make some connections. Thanks,

Joe
I am sorry, I am not familiar with what they are teaching... if the description fits, it may well be.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-15-2004, 01:35 PM   #35
ikkitosennomusha
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Whether a uke flips or falls, it makes no difference in my ability to pin. Maybe I don't understand what Greg was saying about the bounce, but, I don't need to catch uke on a bounce to apply the pin.

There is of course the mae kotegaeishi which is excellent. The other that was mentioned about ther "wind them up"; would this be like an ikkyo type of grip?

Brad Medling
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Old 03-16-2004, 01:13 AM   #36
Bronson
 
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Greg and George,

The kotegaeshi you're describing sounds a lot like the one used in Seidokan. Our standard form sits uke down which makes for a quick spin around onto their stomach for a pin.

One thing I always try to get across to students is that the technique is always going down. The key is to get uke's elbow under their hand...but not by putting the hand over their elbow, there's a big difference. If you picture holding uke's hand with both of yours like George described, you can push with your thumbs which will raise uke's hand over their elbow and consequently stand them up, or you can drop your pinkies which swings their elbow under their hand and brings their center nearer the floor.

That sounds a lot like George's #1. If uke moves into me to stop this I'll usually irimi to the outside of the grabbed hand all the while keeping uke's hand on my center line and moving it down.

That doesn't make a lot of sense when written out but I tried

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:14 PM   #37
Greg Jennings
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Re: Kotegaeshi

Ledyard Sensei, All:

I apologize for being tardy in replying. I was in Colorado Springs on business (got to train every evening plus a couple of mornings!) and came down with some sort of viral flu-thing when I got back home.

I've probably arrived at several slightly different variations than the "full body" variation you describe. But, I believe I have done so based on *exactly* the same criteria.

For the sake of discussion, here is one variation:

Due to the way our basic form works, we usually end the initial phase of the overall interaction with uke's balance broken to around 45-90 degrees (assuming 0 degrees being straight ahead of uke). Nage has uke's kote straight under nage's center at knee height or a little higher.

For brevity, call that the "IP" (initial point) and call the end point with the common standing pin the "EP".

At the IP, the major component of the connection is a tension vector down the length uke's arm. (There are other components, but humor me here, eh?)

At the EP, nage uses a totally different connection to keep uke *pinned down*.

I think it's obvious that the connection has changed. It's arguable that it changes at least twice...

Simply put, I arrived at my version through studying how to get from the IP to the EP with smooth transitions from one form of connection to another.

Initially, I would always have "discontinuities" between the each form of connection. As I studied this more and more, I learned to plug these gaps.

I hope that makes sense...

Best regards always,

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:54 PM   #38
Greg Jennings
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Just wanted to add that I try just about anything else before using the "two thumbs on the back of uke's hand" grip.

That relies on a connection formed through the sum of nage's two thumbs.

I'd rather rely on connections through the lowest possible point on my palm or tegatana.

Also (and I sort of hate to admit this), I want to, as much as possible, integrate the *option* of using impulse energy to the back of uke's hand rather than push energy.

That said, it really doesn't come up in the "Full Body" version that Ledyard Sensei discusses.

Off on a tangent: at the IP I discuss in my previous post, if I want to throw uke and apply some "Nike Do", I can just twist my hips toward uke to use the direction connection of my upper arm against his to take them toward the "third leg" point.

There are several interesting variations on this depending on where nage catches uke in his attempts to get his feet back under his center. One obvious one is a transition to rokkyo.

I'm rambling. Perhaps I'm still feverish....

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 03-24-2004 at 03:04 PM.

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Old 03-25-2004, 09:32 AM   #39
jgrowney
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Brad,

I can say that I've worked with one person who could flip me in a street sense, and there was nothing I could do about it.

He would break my posture well enough forward, and never let me back up. Then he would put my elbow into my hip or stomach and bring it up fom under me causing me to really flip. Kinda felt like having the rug pulled out from under you.

It had nothing to do with my ukemi, he was throwing me.

Jim

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