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Old 03-12-2004, 10:55 PM   #1
ikkitosennomusha
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Kotegaeishi

How many of you have, or feel that you can "flip" a person using kotegaeishi on the street ?
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Old 03-13-2004, 01:36 AM   #2
p00kiethebear
 
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I don't feel like i could flip them with kotegaeshi, but i do feel that i could break their wrist if i put enough power into it, that's not really the aim of kotegaeshi.

It's not necessarily just to flip them, it can also cause them to collapse to the ground under it.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 03-13-2004, 04:58 AM   #3
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Techniques transfer from one to another, as/if they're reversed by opponent - for example,

ikkyo-->nikkyo-->sankyo-->shihonage-->kotegaeshi-->kaitennage or iriminage-->sankyo etc

If kotegaeshi happens to be the link which didn't fail, then you end up with kotegaeshi.

Circumstances don't adopt to your desire to "throw someone with a technique you have premeditated".

You work with what the opponent gives you, and you can't get attached to any technique in particular as being the one that works.
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Old 03-13-2004, 05:21 AM   #4
Nick Simpson
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Like Nathan, I feel I could break a wrist but not make someone flip. You only flip to stop your wrist breaking, someone who doesnt know how to flip is therefore in trouble.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 03-13-2004, 06:40 AM   #5
Greg Jennings
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A related question:

Why would I want them to "flip"? Why would I allow them an escape like that?

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-13-2004, 07:29 AM   #6
Kensai
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An opponent and a uke dont move in the same way.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 03-13-2004, 09:22 AM   #7
Chad Sloman
 
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Re: Kotegaeishi

Quote:
Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote:
How many of you have, or feel that you can "flip" a person using kotegaeishi on the street ?
you can't

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 03-13-2004, 01:18 PM   #8
ikkitosennomusha
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Nicely done gang. You all have credible replies. I posted this because some say they can which I feel is unrealistic. A person on the street will not know how to break fall from that. I despised watching the Steven Seagal flicks where the "bad guy" always break falls out of it. This had led alot of people to believe that this is how it is on the street. The reality is that the attacker is going to hit the pavent really hard and that is going to be enough discouragement.

There could be some weird exception but not likely. I never say never but for all practical purposes, I would agree 100% with everyone.

To Greg Jennings: It does not matter if they break fall or not because if they do, I will go straight into the pin which will be worse for them!

Just like I wrote a post about people trying to spin out of shihonage, some uke try to spin out of kotegaeishi when they hit the mat before you can apply the pin. To rememdy this, lets brake it down:

From the point where uke goes down, nage will take 2 steps around uke's head, roll the body over and pin. Now, when uke spins on his back before you can do any of that, simply stay in the position you are in with you feet planted and uke will spin exactly in the position you need him to be in to roll his body over. So, the process of taking 2 steps over has been eliminated! Uke does not ever know he has just made it easier for you!!!!!!

Brad Medling
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Old 03-13-2004, 03:59 PM   #9
Greg Jennings
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Re: Re: Kotegaeishi

Quote:
Chad Sloman wrote:
you can't
Tell you what, Chad, the next time you talk to Calhoun Sensei, you tell him that Greg Jennings said that the very first time he was asked by Ron Myers Sensei to give a "committed attack", he was thrown in to a breakfall. See what he says.

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-13-2004, 04:06 PM   #10
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote:
To Greg Jennings: It does not matter if they break fall or not because if they do, I will go straight into the pin which will be worse for them!
One common "reversal" is for uke to take a breakfall while holding nage's wrist for kotegaeshi. When nage throws you, they throw themselves with kotegaeshi.

Another is to connect to the underside of nage's elbow and take a breakfall. That pile-drives nage's head into the mat.

Yet another common thing to do is to adjust the breakfall to shin kick nage in the side of the head. Not too many people are going to retain their wits or their grip after that.

At any rate, to allow the breakfall, IMHO, is to briefly lose connection. To me, that's not as desireable as having connection all the way through the pin.

FWIW,

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-13-2004, 10:42 PM   #11
ikkitosennomusha
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Hi Greg!

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing with us all! I know some about kaeishi-waza (reversal technique) but not too much. Perhaps you should start a thread asking everyone to share one reversal and if enough reply to it, we can build are own little library. Reversal are not generally taught and if so, they are taught to extremely advanved. I don't find an aweful lot of sensei with a great deal of experience with reversal.

Brad Medling
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Old 03-14-2004, 07:04 AM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Kotegaeshi Reversals

Quote:
Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote:
Hi Greg!

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing with us all! I know some about kaeishi-waza (reversal technique) but not too much. Perhaps you should start a thread asking everyone to share one reversal and if enough reply to it, we can build are own little library. Reversal are not generally taught and if so, they are taught to extremely advanved. I don't find an aweful lot of sensei with a great deal of experience with reversal.

Brad Medling
kotegaeshi Kaeshi waza:

1)kotegaeshi into nikkyo (run counter spiral) - from tsuki, when nage grabs your hand, pull it back, drop the elbow and spral it up into nikkyo

2) kotegaeshi into kokyunage (over extend the spiral) from tsuki - just as nage grabs the punching hand, rotate the fist away from the nage; this can catch his center and raise his elbow if he's grabbing strongly, extend out and throw with kokyunage

3) kotegaeshi into iriminage (slip the lock) from tsuki ura version - as nage turns back to apply the lock, slip it by extending your energy out your finger tips; this will rotate the nage into an irimi nage

4)kotegaeshi into kotegaeshi go with the technique and add a spiral) - the sacrifice throw - as mentioned above

5))kotegaeshi into leg takedown (go with the technique and add a spiral) - atemi version w/leg as the strike- mentioned above

These are the ones that I know of. Possibly there are others.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 03-14-2004 at 07:12 AM.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-14-2004, 07:48 AM   #13
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Re: Re: Re: Kotegaeishi

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Tell you what, Chad, the next time you talk to Calhoun Sensei, you tell him that Greg Jennings said that the very first time he was asked by Ron Myers Sensei to give a "committed attack", he was thrown in to a breakfall. See what he says.
are you implying that if you apply a munetsuki kotegaeshi to somebody that has no martial art experience, that they will infact go into a breakfall?

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 03-14-2004, 10:14 AM   #14
Greg Jennings
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Kotegaeishi

Quote:
Chad Sloman wrote:
are you implying that if you apply a munetsuki kotegaeshi to somebody that has no martial art experience, that they will infact go into a breakfall?
Not necessarily, but it does happen. It just depends on the thrower and the throwee.

I wasn't totally green when it happened to me, but I had zero aikido experience.

Myers Sensei asked for a strong, very aggressive attack. Ask Calhoun Sensei what he thinks that would generate from me. If "put his fist through his spine and out his back" or similar isn't in the description, I'd be very surprised.

It wasn't the prettiest breakfall in the world. I landed flat on my back and lay there for a couple of minutes.

As I lay there trying to breathe and determine if anything important was broken, I knew that I'd found someone that could teach me something....

I'll be down there to teach the advanced class some time. Then you'll understand.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-14-2004, 10:34 AM   #15
Chad Sloman
 
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Cool, I'd figure in most cases that the agressor would just resist and get his wrist broken or fall backward.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 03-14-2004, 02:12 PM   #16
PaulieWalnuts
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there is no way you can make some one in the street FLIP when they don't know how to take ukemi. the whole point of ukemi is to learn to take good, fast, correct techniques without injury that and how to find kaisha waza. the guy in the street is either going to be caught out when you turn or turn and follow you , so you have to keep turning thats why we have tainohenko. either way if the tech is done correct his wrist or elbow or shoulder should just break.
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Old 03-14-2004, 02:49 PM   #17
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Chad Sloman wrote:
Cool, I'd figure in most cases that the agressor would just resist and get his wrist broken or fall backward.
Mostly, yes. But there are ways to changethe kotegaeshi so that it becomes something of a kokyunage.

That's what Myers Sensei did to me. He whipped me so hard that I, without any ukemi experience, landed flat on my back and had the wind knocked out of me.

Of course, I was also supplying a great deal of commitment.

Bottom line, give someone with 30+ years of experience a lot of commitment and they can do just about anything they want with you.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-14-2004, 04:52 PM   #18
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kotegaeishi

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Not necessarily, but it does happen. It just depends on the thrower and the throwee.

I wasn't totally green when it happened to me, but I had zero aikido experience.

Myers Sensei asked for a strong, very aggressive attack. Ask Calhoun Sensei what he thinks that would generate from me. If "put his fist through his spine and out his back" or similar isn't in the description, I'd be very surprised.

It wasn't the prettiest breakfall in the world. I landed flat on my back and lay there for a couple of minutes.

As I lay there trying to breathe and determine if anything important was broken, I knew that I'd found someone that could teach me something....

I'll be down there to teach the advanced class some time. Then you'll understand.

Best regards,
Wow Greg! I once got kicked out of a dojo because I knocked the breath out of a kid accidently. Unfortunately, it does happen. I think in my case it was just a reason.
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Old 03-14-2004, 04:57 PM   #19
ikkitosennomusha
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George:

Excellent brother!! I copied and pasted into word to save your teachings. Thanks!

I will now share a simple nikkyo kaeishi from katatedori. When nage's hand is hooked over your wrist and his other hand is on top of yours to keep it in place, simply place you hand on top of his to keep it in place and apply pressure with the hand you first grabbed with. You are now both doing nikkyo on each other! The effect is that it creates an equal amout of pressure thus it is balanced. At this point, neither one of you can apply it. From there you can get nage down into any number of techniques.

Brad Medling

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-14-2004 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 03-14-2004, 06:24 PM   #20
Ian Williams
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Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
That's what Myers Sensei did to me. He whipped me so hard that I, without any ukemi experience, landed flat on my back and had the wind knocked out of me.
Isn't that kind of irresponsible to do a full speed wrist throw on someone without the skill to blend with it? (Unless you're in a self defence situation of course)
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Old 03-15-2004, 12:09 AM   #21
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Ian Williams wrote:
Isn't that kind of irresponsible to do a full speed wrist throw on someone without the skill to blend with it? (Unless you're in a self defence situation of course)
He'd changed the technique so that it wasn't about the wrist, it was about directing my momentum in an elliptical path.

Also, keep in mind that at that time my idea of "committed attack" meant that I was going to do my level best to put my fist through his spine and out his back.

I was in no danger of anything worse than what happened...landing flat on my back.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-15-2004, 02:36 AM   #22
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I was thinking about this last night before posting today, and Greg has just mentioned a bit about what I was going to say in his last post. I'm going to attempt to comment on a few of the posts in one hit.

Brad, in answer to your first question. I think it is possible to "flip" uke with kotegaeshi in the street. I'll come on to how in a bit.

Nathan & Nick, that's true, but only if your focus is on twisting the wrist.

Greg, in answer to your first question, "why would allow them to escape like that?". Because I am practicing Aikido. There may be mitigating circumstances to not allow it (he's got mates, etc.), but generally, I would hope to allow it, and as you wrote yourself later, even allowing for the escape, you can still be winded and out of action for long enough.

Chris Gee, that's true, but Aikido movement is about you and what you do, not what uke does.

Chad, You can.

Kotegaeshi - I believe literally translated means to return the wrist. A lot of people get caught up in believing it means twist the wrist and rip it off the arm. Their whole focus in doing to the technique is trying to get uke to move by just twisting the wrist until it hurts. Which, as mentioned above, if done at speed could/ would induce a break, uke might fall backwards etc. When you apply it this way, people have often forgotten about their own movement, have rooted themselves whilst focusing on the wrist, and put themselves in conflict with uke.

Your movement is very important in Aikido, you need to keep it going through the technique until you have taken uke's balance, and through the combination of your movement and uke's momentum, put uke into the place that you want him to go. this can be a backward breakfall, straight down, or a "flip". You won't do this unless you move though.

In honest practice, uke wants you, he attacks you. You move and make hole, create a void and simultaneously manouver uke in to plug it. The difficulty is doing this without thinking about it, because the more you think, the harder you try, the quicker you stop moving, you become the conflict for uke's movement, we're back to focusing pain on the wrist to make it work.

I think that's enough waffling for now, it's Monday morning, I better get on and do some work.

Regards

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 03-15-2004, 06:50 AM   #23
Dyusan
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Hi, I don't know if this will help or not but in one dojo where I studied one of the students was a guard in the county lockup. He was at work and one of the inmates tried to stab him. He moved out of the way did kotegaeshi and he and one of our other student who also worked there heard a loud popping sound and then the inmate dropped like a rock. They had to take him to the hospital for repairs. The inmate did not have much time to do anything but fall hard.

Gary Chase
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Old 03-15-2004, 07:38 AM   #24
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Bryan Bateman (batemanb) wrote:
Greg, in answer to your first question, "why would allow them to escape like that?". Because I am practicing Aikido. There may be mitigating circumstances to not allow it (he's got mates, etc.), but generally, I would hope to allow it, and as you wrote yourself later, even allowing for the escape, you can still be winded and out of action for long enough.
I don't mean an escape versus breaking his wrist. I mean an escape that loses connection (allowing them a breakfall) versus one that stays connected all the way to the pin.

IMHO, a loss of connection is an opening begging to be exploited.

Best,

Greg Jennings
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Old 03-15-2004, 07:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
I don't mean an escape versus breaking his wrist. I mean an escape that loses connection (allowing them a breakfall) versus one that stays connected all the way to the pin.

IMHO, a loss of connection is an opening begging to be exploited.

Best,
OK, my mistake, I agree, you should always maintain connection through to the pin.

rgds

Bryan

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