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Old 03-14-2004, 01:01 AM   #1
AikiWeb System
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AikiWeb Poll for the week of March 14, 2004:

What do you usually do with your breath during a throw in your aikido training?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Exhale only
  • Exhale, then inhale
  • Hold
  • Inhale, then exhale
  • Inhale only
Here are the current results.
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Old 03-14-2004, 02:58 PM   #2
Doka
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I exhale as the throw is executed, although I must point out that I do inhale after [the throw], as to do otherwise is quite bad for your health!!!

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Old 03-14-2004, 05:07 PM   #3
ikkitosennomusha
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I exhale to release ki to break the fall. After the point of contact with the mat, then breath in.
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Old 03-14-2004, 05:20 PM   #4
Doka
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Brad - you release your balance through breath?

So then, what is Ki, Brad?

Last edited by Doka : 03-14-2004 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 03-14-2004, 05:25 PM   #5
Doka
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OK, OK!!! Just messing! Ki is a word used far too loosely. Breath (Kokyu) is an accompaniment to the correct muscle movement that moves the body in the direction of the throw.

No mystical mumbo-jumbo!


Last edited by Doka : 03-14-2004 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 03-14-2004, 05:37 PM   #6
Jamie Stokes
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I breathe out during the actual throw.

I "breathe in" my partner during the movement.

One of the simple reasons (Non esoteric) is that if you breath out during the throw, if you get your breath knocked out, at least it comes out in a rush.

If you're inhaling doing a throw, and you breath gets knocked out, you are winded. And a sitting duck.

warmest,

Jamie
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Old 03-14-2004, 10:59 PM   #7
MaryKaye
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There isn't a poll category for "pant pathetically throughout the throw"? Darn.

(Yes, I need to work on endurance.)

Mary Kaye
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Old 03-14-2004, 11:13 PM   #8
Jeanne Shepard
 
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I've NO idea what I do with my breath.

I assume I keep breathing...

Jeanne
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Old 03-15-2004, 02:22 AM   #9
happysod
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I'm with Jeanne ('cept in randori, then I'm with Mary)
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:18 AM   #10
Hanna B
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As tori, or as uke?
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:49 AM   #11
wendyrowe
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I assumed the poll meant what I as nage do. I have a feeling that as uke I hold my breath as I'm being thrown -- but I'm generally too busy to notice.

From the results, it looks to me like we're all doing the same thing but some of us counted from when we're winding up getting ready to execute the throw (inhale) and others of us started from the actual throw itself (exhale).

"We are experiencing semantic difficulties, please stand by ...."
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Old 03-15-2004, 07:29 AM   #12
Karen Wolek
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I think there should be another category:

I have no idea.

That's not good, is it? <grin>

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
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Old 03-15-2004, 08:24 AM   #13
Victor Ioncu
 
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Throwing and being thrown, I exhale.

Victor
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Old 03-15-2004, 09:11 AM   #14
SeiserL
 
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Inhale as I enter and blend. Exhale as I execute the throw or lock.

Usually I just try to center my breath normally between the stress/fear pattern of holding it or hyperventilating.

Life depends on breathing.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-15-2004, 10:21 AM   #15
Ron Tisdale
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as shite -- Inhale to steal the breath and take the balance, then exhale for power on the throw. Generally.

As uke -- exhale in a controled fashion thoughout the ukemi if possible. Sometimes exhale sharply with the attack, inhale sharply, exhale through the actual fall.

Sometimes I just gasp (usually when doing REALLY bad technique)

RT

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-15-2004, 11:59 AM   #16
Atomicpenguin
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I think the premise is sort of an advanced idea, but I always, as nage, inhale to integrate uke's one point into myself and then exhale to complete the throw. Both pieces are important. I think that for uke it sort of depends on the attack. With a strike I inhale before execution of the attack and then exhale on impact. With a grab I think it varies depending on what you wish to accompish with the grab. If the intent is drive back then the same respiratory pattern is followed. If the intent is to draw in nage, then the reverse is done.

At least this is all the ideal. I occasionally find myself not following my own advice. And I firmly believe that this is not an introductory level idea. I don't tell this to new people anymore because it doesn't make sense to their bodies. I think technique must be integrated at least to the point where it's possible to carry out the movement without having to think about which foot goes where and which hand does what.

From the nage perspective I think this is all most illustratable in kokyudosa. After that the kokyunage's seem pretty good ways to catch the idea. After all, what does "kokyu" mean again?
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Old 03-15-2004, 12:05 PM   #17
ikkitosennomusha
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Quote:
Mark Dobro (Doka) wrote:
Brad - you release your balance through breath?

So then, what is Ki, Brad?
Mark:

I will reserve from giving you a definition of ki because that should be a new thread. However, when one is releasing ki, one also exhales. This is common sense dude! Even the motor function of speaking must you exhale to release the vibrations stemming from your vocal cords.

Brad Medling

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-15-2004 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 03-15-2004, 12:39 PM   #18
kironin
 
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Ki Symbol

I didn't answer the question because I think the whole premise on which it is based is simply wrong and that none of the answers are correct.

Koichi Tohei Sensei talks about breathing naturally while throwing. Getting attached to the idea that your stronger on exhaling or inhaling is a weakness that can be exploited in his view. My experience is that you can throw well breathing in, breathing out, etc. as long as your breathing is naturally calm and not from your upper chest.

my 2 cents,

Craig
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Old 03-15-2004, 12:45 PM   #19
kironin
 
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Quote:
David Enevoldsen (Atomicpenguin) wrote:
I

From the nage perspective I think this is all most illustratable in kokyudosa. After that the kokyunage's seem pretty good ways to catch the idea. After all, what does "kokyu" mean again?
At least according to Koichi Tohei Sensei, use of "kokyunage" is meant more to rhythm or timing.

breathing is rhythmic and that ("rhythm") is the sense you should be interpreting the name.

kokyudosa is another case where I think people are being misled by literally interpreting the name.

ymmv,

Craig
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Old 03-15-2004, 12:50 PM   #20
ikkitosennomusha
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great comment Craig!
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Old 03-15-2004, 01:54 PM   #21
Min
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As uke, I often inhale as the throw is being executed, then exhale when being thrown. Sometimes this process is accompanied by a set of wide eyes and, if there's time, a mental check of "I'll be okay after this, right? Right." The small act of inhaling reminds me to be awake.
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Old 03-15-2004, 02:06 PM   #22
kung fu hamster
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By the time I get uke into position to throw, I'm usually wheezing like an accordian. But I believe that we're taught to exhale when throwing, in order to achieve maximum power in projection.
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Old 03-15-2004, 02:11 PM   #23
Qatana
 
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As i generally throw my ukes at the wall or the mirror i generally perform the throw and then gasp in fear as uke flies towards imminent doom.

Q
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Old 03-15-2004, 02:42 PM   #24
Atomicpenguin
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Quote:
At least according to Koichi Tohei Sensei, use of "kokyunage" is meant more to rhythm or timing.

breathing is rhythmic and that ("rhythm") is the sense you should be interpreting the name.

kokyudosa is another case where I think people are being misled by literally interpreting the name.
I very much agree with you in regards to rhythm. However I don't think people are misled by the name. Like pretty much everything in aikido there are multiple issues at play here. I am merely talking about one aspect.

To employ the principles laid out by Tohei in an example, it's like I'm talking about relaxing. If you counter with, but Tohei says we should do the technique with weight underside, you're right but you haven't invalidated my point.

Natural rhythm is also an important and integral part of a kokuynage. The challenge then, as I see it, is to sync the breath of the motion to your own natural movement, with the motion of your partner. This is a heck of a lot to deal with. This is another reason why I view this idea as an advanced level concept.

It's important that we understand both of these components and not get too wrapped up in one or the other. If I argue breath to the exclusion of rhythm it's like arguing an emphasis on ki to the exclusion of posture. Look at Tohei. He's spent his life spreading an understanding of ki. When I think of Tohei, I think of ki principles. Posture is not one of the first tenets that pops into mind. However, if you've ever seen him, his posture and precision is incredible. He obviously understands that each is a component (hence the principles).
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Old 03-15-2004, 03:12 PM   #25
Atomicpenguin
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Sorry, didn't quite finish my thought.

My point with the final paragraph was that you promote what needs to be worked on. Tohei, I assume, felt that there was a need for a better understanding of ki in the aikido community. And he therefore taught about ki. That does not mean that he does not pay attention to other points.

When a new person comes in off the street the first thing you tell them is which foot to place where, how each hand moves and all the other strictly mechanical gross motor movements. Once that's understood you start to walk them through some rudimentary understanding of softening to gain power or the use of one point to prevent balance or some such thing. Over time technique can become sloppy due to emphasis on these new ideas. You then revert to stressing posture and the mechanics of the technique.

In my own progress, I do very much the same thing. I focus on one idea for awhile. Eventually I realize I've gotten lax on one of the others. So I return there. In effect, I'm kind of zig-zagging upwards.

The same is true with breath and rhythm. The mechanics of breath that I described are like the "this is where your foot goes, this is where your hand goes" portion of the technique. But if I focus exclusively on that my technique is useless. So I bounce between each.

As one final example, in breathing exercises there is an explanation that Tohei offers for each component. What happens when you try to coordinate an entire class to one person's rhythm following that pattern? Someone invariably breaths at the wrong pace and then can't keep in sync because they don't have enough air. So the objective becomes to find the rhythm you can do, sync it with the rhythm of the person leading the exercise and make it natural.
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