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Old 03-18-2004, 11:03 AM   #26
Brian Vickery
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Re: cutting mats

Quote:
Linda Morimoto (kung fu hamster) wrote:
Hi,

In the past I think I remember being told that the power of the cut/slice should be focussed/extended into the tip of the sword, since if you were cutting flesh, a long shallow cut (2-3" deep?) will suffice to do the job.
When you cut with a sword, the tip should lead the cut, primarily to generate enough blade speed to pass completely thru the target cleanly. You're NOT trying to just make a 2"-3" deep cut in the target. If you lead the cut with your hands, instead of the tip, you will NOT generate enough blade speed to cleanly cut thru the target, the blade instead will 'bite' into the taget, flattening out the angle of your cut & get stuck.

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 03-25-2004, 02:37 PM   #27
kung fu hamster
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another question

Hi Brian,

thank you for your helpful reply, it gave me a lot of food for thought (I've never done tameshigiri but I would like to try it some day). I have another question, wondering since you have done training in other sword arts, do any of those ryu have kata which are intended as 'sacrifice' kata? Meaning, you practice executing the technique knowing that the end result would be that you would cut the other guy but lose your own life in the process... in other words, draw your blade and go to your 'glorious death'...? Just curious.
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Old 05-14-2004, 02:10 AM   #28
arderljohn
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Re: The sword in aikido

the differences between the Katana and bokken is the weigth in each of them. if you practice long time in katana then suddenly change it to bokken there will slightly problem you will might be little bit confused how to hold properly. or its the same in bokken. Practice makes perfect...repetition is the only solution and concentration.
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Old 05-14-2004, 02:40 AM   #29
PaulieWalnuts
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Re: The sword in aikido

The original Aikiken that Osensei let has nothing to do with japanese swordsmanship or sword arts it is completely independent. Aikiken only represents taijutsu thats what it was desgined for. The founder was a sword master when he realised that the techs in his art could be so related to the movments in ken/jo. He spent years in Iwama working on the rei between ken/jo/taijutsu in the end his final result was the art he felt was worth being called Aikido/Takemsu Aiki.
Although many students and teachers do incorparate other martial sword and jo arts in to there aikido taijutsu for different reasons. Some because they never got to see or practice the Iwama system from Osensei and felt that the rei would still be there, which im sure it is.

Remember when doing ken think taijutsu/ when doing taijutsu think ken. there is no difference in the body movments as All of Aikido was designed around this approach.

Last edited by PaulieWalnuts : 05-14-2004 at 02:42 AM.
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Old 06-10-2004, 12:47 PM   #30
aikitim23
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Re: The sword in aikido

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
I disagree. I've seen plenty of people who have trained only with bokuto in an aikido context go up with a shinken (live blade) for tameshigiri (test cutting through rolled up tatami mat covers or bamboo), only to have their hasuji (blade angle) off or use too much strength so that they basically just knock over the target.

Even in the few times in which I've done tameshigiri and watched good kenjutsu folks, I can see that there's a lot that's missing in using just bokuto.

-- Jun
this is true, i began some iaido training and it has been amazing how bad my cuts were and how much they have improved, that whoosh is soooo satisfying....



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Old 06-11-2004, 01:20 PM   #31
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: The sword in aikido

Quote:
Jack Robertson wrote:
I think if you gave someone with no sword training experience a live blade and you gave someone, who trained with a bokken, a live blade, the one who trained with the bokken would be a better swordsman.
Not necessarily. Some folks who use a bokuto (bokken to you gendai types) learn some very bad habits that make it hard to teach proper sword ...

No, really.

Aikiken is a great tool for refining your aikido, but never assume it's actually got anything to do with using a live blade.

Chuck

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Old 06-11-2004, 01:25 PM   #32
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: cutting mats

Quote:
Linda Morimoto wrote:
Would you say it's the same feel in tameshigiri, or is that more of a power slice with the pressure exerted/applied throughout the length of the sword from hilt to tip?
Depends on what you are doing. The primary cutting portion of the sword is the monouchi, pretty much the distal third of the blade. However, there are other instances wherein the proximal third is used (generally in close-in proximity), and in some cases you want to draw the blade quite deeply.

An inch-deep cut across the torso works great, but if you want to remove an arm, you need a slightly different approach ...

Chuck

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Old 06-14-2004, 05:32 AM   #33
philipsmith
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Re: The sword in aikido

If you want to see how Aikiken relates to "real" sword work try some Tamaeshi-giri (test cutting).

Most Aikidoka cannot succesfully cut through a straw target whereas most Iai-doka can. Perhaps that says something about the relative cutting abilities of the two disciplines.
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Old 06-14-2004, 12:05 PM   #34
Gareth Hinds
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Re: The sword in aikido

If one wishes to try tameshigiri, and one does not have convenient access to any schools that practice it, what does one need in order to set it up oneself? Some cutting mats, a steel katana, and someone who knows the proper technique? anything else? Are there any good books or videos on the subject?
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Old 06-14-2004, 12:24 PM   #35
Chris Li
 
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Re: The sword in aikido

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote:
If you want to see how Aikiken relates to "real" sword work try some Tamaeshi-giri (test cutting).

Most Aikidoka cannot succesfully cut through a straw target whereas most Iai-doka can. Perhaps that says something about the relative cutting abilities of the two disciplines.
I disagree with that - I ran into many, many iaido and even koryu kenjutsu students in Japan who couldn't cut well in tameshi-giri. Basically, the people who cut well in tameshi-giri are the people who practice tameshi-giri, whether they be from Aiki-ken or Shinto Katori Ryu.

That being said, I wouldn't characterize either iaido or tameshi-giri as "real" swordwork, although they are both good technical exercises.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-14-2004, 05:23 PM   #36
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The sword in aikido

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote:
If you want to see how Aikiken relates to "real" sword work try some Tamaeshi-giri (test cutting).

Most Aikidoka cannot succesfully cut through a straw target whereas most Iai-doka can. Perhaps that says something about the relative cutting abilities of the two disciplines.
Tameshigiri is to combat sword fighting what board breaking is to empty hand fighting.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 06-15-2004, 05:58 AM   #37
PeterR
 
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Re: The sword in aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Tameshigiri is to combat sword fighting what board breaking is to empty hand fighting.
Hi George - well first it doesn't hurt as much.

My first experience with Tameshigiri - I still cringe at the photo - was actually quite successful. At the time I had next to no weapons exposure (Shodokan tanto excepted) knowing at most how to hold a sword and that it wasn't a baseball bat. It was made clear to me that it is a slice rather than a hit and I was supposed to use the last six inches or so of the blade.

I stood up - took a bit of time adjusting ma ai - and die ninja scum. Hey so I have an imagination - shoot me. In the dozen or so times I did it that afternoon, with a few notable exceptions, I improved rapidly (always managed the cut). Unfortunately the one photo taken was one of those less stellar times - posture was a bit reachy. That coupled with the fact that it was outside on a cold winter day so you see me in the fashionable dogi and leather jacket look. The short dogi pants were accentuated by socks and black shoes with the whole ensemble topped off with a woolly cap.

My friend came along and looked much better. Cute, sexy, Japanese female, in knee high boots and a sharp sword. In a word hot.

Since then I spent some time doing TSKR kata via the Sugano heresy and I really must say that the feel of that training is not different from my Aikido training. If anything the times I've trained with Koryu folks its been more relaxed than my regular training.

Just my experiences.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-15-2004, 01:00 PM   #38
Don_Modesto
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Re: The sword in aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
My first experience with Tameshigiri - I still cringe at the photo....you see me in the fashionable dogi and leather jacket look. The short dogi pants were accentuated by socks and black shoes with the whole ensemble topped off with a woolly cap.

My friend came along and looked much better. Cute, sexy, Japanese female, in knee high boots and a sharp sword. In a word hot.
Upload the SECOND picture.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 06-15-2004, 04:54 PM   #39
Kent Enfield
 
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Re: The sword in aikido

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Upload the SECOND picture.
That would be the one below, right?

http://www.aikido-l.org/seminars/199...cs/japan07.jpg

Kentokuseisei
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Old 06-15-2004, 07:51 PM   #40
PeterR
 
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Re: The sword in aikido

Ah memories.

The picture doesn't do her justice. The one of me on the other hand is just about right.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-16-2004, 02:28 AM   #41
kironin
 
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Re: The sword in aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Ah memories.

The picture doesn't do her justice. The one of me on the other hand is just about right.

"knee high boots and a sharp sword. In a word hot."



You are killing me here!

Craig
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Old 06-16-2004, 09:50 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The sword in aikido

Ok, clicking on that link and seeing the aikiweb logo was WAY disappointing!

Ron

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Old 06-16-2004, 10:19 AM   #43
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: The sword in aikido

Look here:

http://www.aikido-l.org/seminars/199...ics/index.html

Chuck

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Old 06-16-2004, 11:20 AM   #44
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The sword in aikido

Hmmm...

Thanks Chuck! Anyone want to comment on the cutting form of aikidoka? My own pics show many of the same weaknesses (and specifically in my case, the overuse of strength)...

Ron (way too embarrased to post MY pic...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-16-2004, 11:37 AM   #45
akiy
 
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Re: The sword in aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Anyone want to comment on the cutting form of aikidoka?
Personally, I've seen really crappy cutting form and I've seen superb form in aikido folks who have tried tameshigiri. In the same way, I've seen aikido people who, in their first time trying tameshigiri, managed to knock the target over, send it flying, or get their sword stuck; I've also witnessed aikido people who, in their first time trying tameshigiri, sliced right through without any problems.

In other words, I think all of this really depends on the manner of aikido "swordwork" learned by the aikido practitioner...

-- Jun

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Old 06-16-2004, 12:13 PM   #46
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The sword in aikido

Well, I wasn't referring to NOT cutting through...more to the form EVEN THOUGH the target was cut. In the style I tried, the goza is *set* on the stand...there is no spike to hold it in place. For the most part, I still succeeded in cutting the target...but my *form* was still for crap, from a sword work basis...even an aikidoka ( ) could see my hands going one way, my shoulders tense, my waist another way, my hips yet another (we'll stop now, before I embarrass myself even more...).

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-16-2004, 01:57 PM   #47
kironin
 
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Re: The sword in aikido

First off, I can see a lot to be critical of in my form and to improve from pictures but here is two action shots capturing a double cut I did. Would like to have pictures of how it looked when I cut throught double wrapped mats but I had no control over when pics were taken.

First lets start with getting rid of making fish faces!



http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...ntid=184&stc=1


http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...ntid=185&stc=1
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Old 06-16-2004, 02:08 PM   #48
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The sword in aikido

oh man, if you can do it...lets see if I can get this scanned...


Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-16-2004, 03:02 PM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The sword in aikido -- aikidoka trying to cut...

Ok, let's see if this works...and beware the light shining off my bald head...the sun was pretty bright that day...

Ron
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Old 06-16-2004, 07:38 PM   #50
PeterR
 
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Re: The sword in aikido

Pictures are terrible. They never capture the perfect pose.

In the series of pictures mentioned above one of the people is a sword guy (Peter Boylan) embarrassingly caught leaning forward.

I gave up analyzing Budo form from pictures long ago.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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