Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-23-2004, 02:34 PM   #1
Jack Robertson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 64
Offline
Tsuki Irimi nage (irimi)

Hi everyone. I was wondering. My technique doesn't seem good enough to take uke down at the end. I can deflect the strike and step left just fine but I can't seem to get the throw part down.

Is there some kind of hidden pivot in there?

Basically I'm asking what should be done with the arm? I hear that you are supposed to cut down but when I do it, the person just steps back a little bit.


Any tips for the technique after you step left and deflect the strike?

Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 04:00 PM   #2
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Hi Jack,

What feedback have you received from your instructor on your problems with the technique? Have you asked?

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 04:20 PM   #3
Jack Robertson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 64
Offline
My instructor eh.... I don't quite have one yet.

: )
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 04:21 PM   #4
PeterKelly
Dojo: Tas Uni Aikido Club
Location: Tasmania
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2
Offline
Hi Jack

remember that when you do Aikido technique that it is not just the use of arm that takes down the opponent, but the use of your centre, if your centre is used to throw your opponent he will fall. Also it may help if you check the angle that you will be entering at. If you are not entering triangularly, then there will be a clash, strength is never a good bedfellow with effective Aiki technique - just a thought, work hard.

-Peter

He who knows others is wise,
He who knows himself is enlightened
He who overcomes others is strong,
He who overcomes himself has true strength.
Lao Tsu Dao De Jing 33
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 04:30 PM   #5
Jack Robertson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 64
Offline
Hi Peter,

Yeah, I know what you mean. I try to make sure I'm not muscling my way through the technique. That's why I was thinking of adding a pivot in there. My only fear is that my book doesn't illustrate or mention a pivot in the technique, so I'm thinking that I might be doing something wrong with my arm.

I was also thinking that it maybe when stepping with my right leg, I should position it behind my opponent, so that he doesn't have balance when I strike down with my arm.

I'll get it, eventually: )

I think my pivot idea would work, but I think that there is a quicker way to execute it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 04:30 PM   #6
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Hi Jack,
Quote:
Jack Robertson wrote:
My instructor eh.... I don't quite have one yet.
I think it's good you're thinking about the art, but my advice for you would be to wait until you start training before you start trying out the techniques. What you're learning in your books (and here) should only be taken as supplemental material to your regular, day-to-day training with a qualified instructor...

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 05:23 PM   #7
Jack Robertson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 64
Offline
Hi Jun,

I understand your concern, but I don't think it's a problem. I'm not really trying to cram all the techniques into my mind as fast as I can.

I get to start taking Aikido in 2-3 months (at this point it's looking like 3).

So basically I'm trying to slowly and patiently get the basics down.

So far I've got my kamae down. Hidari-hanmi, migi-hanmi, hidari-gyaku-hanmi, etc. I can run into a front breakfall and I can do a back breakfall from standing.

I'm currently trying to get my stubborn right quadricep to become flexible so I can sit in seiza properly.

Recently, I decided to try and learn a throw from the book (I currently know just a few of the simpler pins and techniques; no throws). I found one that I liked (Tsuki Irimi-nage (irimi)).

Anyway, I don't think I would be able to stop myself if I wanted to. I can't stop thinking about Aikido. Whether it's a quote from O'Sensei, or a breakfall, or a golden bridge: ) I see Aikido in my life everywhere. Whether it's in the hallway, the weightroom, a class, a throwing pit, or even my bedroom, I see it!

But what's really cool is now, I'm beginning to feel it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 05:44 PM   #8
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: Tsuki Irimi nage (irimi)

Quote:
Jack Robertson wrote:
Basically I'm asking what should be done with the arm?
Your questions originate from a limited frame of understanding.

The answers will be naturally just as limited to the same frame.

Even if you get an answer now and you will "get it to work" on this partner, it will not work on another, or it will not work on the same partner under slightly different circumstances.

You need to start at the dojo, not at a book.
Quote:
Jack Robertson wrote:
I hear that you are supposed to cut down but when I do it, the person just steps back a little bit.
Here's my take, however...

how exactly is he going to "step back" when you are facing his right side, with your left hand on his neck ?

If you're going to practice irimi nage on your own, you definitely need to use the typical version, not the "become Steven Seagal in 3 easy lessons" version which is what you seem to describe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 06:17 PM   #9
Jack Robertson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 64
Offline
Cool

LOL Steven Seagal in 3 easy lessons!!!

If I was trying to be Steven Seagal, I'd walk around with a credit card at all times. (I'm joking, Steven Seagal is cool : ) )

Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, Kisshomaru and Moriteru Ueshiba aren't trying to be Steven Seagal in 3 steps. (This is their book)
Quote:
Your questions originate from a limited frame of understanding
Is it possible that I'm trying to describe it in the simplest possible way? Is it wise to guess where questions originate?
Quote:
Even if you get an answer now and you will "get it to work" on this partner, it will not work on another, or it will not work on the same partner under slightly different circumstances
Well, it may seem that I'm asking my best friend to throw me a "slow one" when I do this, but that is not the case. When I said I can step left and deflect just fine, I wasn't kidding.
Quote:
how exactly is he going to "step back" when you are facing his right side, with your left hand on his neck ?
I'd imagine it would be different if my left hand was on his shoulder. In this book, there are 2 different types of Tsuki Irimi-nage. There is irimi (which is the one I'm trying to do and tenshin (which is the one that seems to fit your description).

Well, thank you for responding Aleksey. Though, perhaps your answers originate from "a limited frame of understanding."

P.S. Sorry about the sarcasm, I couldn't resist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 06:19 PM   #10
Jack Robertson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 64
Offline
Quote:
I'd imagine it would be different if my left hand was on his shoulder.
I meant to say neck.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 07:05 PM   #11
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Jack Robertson wrote:
I'd imagine it would be different if my left hand was on his neck. In this book, there are 2 different types of Tsuki Irimi-nage. There is irimi (which is the one I'm trying to do and tenkan (which is the one that seems to fit your description).
Do the tenkan version for a while, as it is the one more commonly practiced, and easier to do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 07:45 PM   #12
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,032
Japan
Offline
Jack - it has to be said. Every time someone reads books, watches videos and practices by themselves before getting on the mat, the instructor has a harder time of it.

Worse case that ever happened to me was a guy grasping a book he read and wanting to discuss why what I was doing was not Aikido. Most cases is a student who moves the way he thinks he saw on the video. Better the empty cup.

Your Aikido starts in three months.

I would use the time to stretch (learning to sit in seiza is a stretch) and running or some other aerobic activity. Three months is perfect for a number of fitness inducing activities - sort of a shugyo. If you limit the activity to a time period you often can go much further with it.

For example - tell yourself that you will run 10 km - three times a week for three months at the end of which you re-evaluate how often you will run if at all. The benefits don't disappear - especially if another physical activity replaces it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 09:12 PM   #13
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Hi Jack,
Quote:
Jack Robertson wrote:
I understand your concern, but I don't think it's a problem. I'm not really trying to cram all the techniques into my mind as fast as I can.
I wouldn't think of it as cramming techniques into your head. Rather, by studying out of a book, you're not receiving proper feedback on what you're learning and, therefore, probably picking up bad habits that you may not notice nor understand. Training with a qualified instructor will head off any of these bad habits from embedding itself into your body. Some of these habits might even be dangerous...
Quote:
I get to start taking Aikido in 2-3 months (at this point it's looking like 3).
If you're really serious about doing aikido, then waiting three months is nothing if you think about doing it for the rest of your life.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2004, 11:03 PM   #14
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Awww, Peter beat me to it

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 03:14 PM   #15
Andy
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 96
Offline
Quote:
Jack Robertson wrote:
I understand your concern, but I don't think it's a problem. [etc etc etc]
Are you going to be this hard-headed with your Aikido teacher when you actually start training in "two to three months"? It sure looks here like you're ignoring advice from many sincere people with truckloads of Aikido experience.

My Aikido Eight Ball says "Cup too full. Empty and try again."
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 05:09 PM   #16
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,931
Offline
You think you are learning kamae, movements, etc. but without an instructor, all you are doing is instilling muscle memory that may well be quite different from what is correct, that will make it harder to learn correctly when the time comes.

What do we say about sword cutting: better one good cut then 100 wrong ones?

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2004, 03:20 AM   #17
Mark V. Smith
 
Mark V. Smith's Avatar
Dojo: Seikeikan
Location: Sacramento, CA
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 10
Offline
Peter, Jun, Andy, Janet give good advice for the health and longevity of your aikido career. The time you have to wait is as nothing if you use it to prepare yourself to learn rather than infusing yourself with things which may need to be un-learned. I waited about 20 years to find the right place and time to learn.

Ask your instructor-to-be which non-technical books you could be reading to inspire you, open your mind, and prepare your soul for the journey you have ahead of you. Some books will be more philosophically compatible with your future dojo than others. Peter's post in General/Aikido Books is good:

--snip--

Two options. Do a search for old threads or go to Books in the Databases section (look to your left) and read the reviews.

In any case my advise is stay away from books until you've been on the mat for a few months, then read only what your teacher recommends for the first year and then, if readings your thing, explore.

__________________

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido

--snip--

In any case, technical books and videos are of no practical use to you until you have been trained how to SEE what is being performed in front of you. Just beginning to see will take you months on the mat. Be patient, be careful, most of all, be under the personal instruction of an expert.

Mark V. Smith
Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento
Chief mat inspector

Aikido Rocks! (Ukemi Rolls)
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2004, 09:14 AM   #18
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Hey Jack,

If money is the issue for you to start aikido, why not just go watch some classes?

Some instructors will give you a free intro course or class. Some will have no problem with you just watching on the sidelines.

If aikido is as big of a crack addiction as your letting on, I'd do whatever I could to meet the people involved, hang out with them during class, get a free intro, go watch seminars and camps, anything and everything you can think of until classes actually start for you.

Try not to get anything to "engrained" just yet. Use this time to find the right dojo, instructor, sempai, atmosphere, etc. Learn where you wanna go and what that organization is all about. Use this time to get the terminology down, learn jo or bokken katas (they're out on the net). Stretch! Exercise your wrists and joints and limber up so that when everything comes together, you can hit the ground running and not have to slow down for the really BASIC basics!

Good luck on your adventure!!

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2004, 12:33 PM   #19
aikilouis
Location: Germany
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 218
France
Offline
What to practice before proper aikido ?

Seiza.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2004, 05:25 PM   #20
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,032
Japan
Offline
Quote:
Louis R Joseph (aikilouis) wrote:
What to practice before proper aikido ?

Seiza.
That was trite.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2004, 05:46 PM   #21
Jack Robertson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 64
Offline
There's been a new turn of events: )

If all goes well tomarrow, I'll be on the mat the DAY AFTER!!!!!!!!!!

Yeeee Haw!!!!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2004, 05:57 PM   #22
rachmass
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati/Huron Valley Aikikai
Location: Somerset Michigan
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 794
Offline
If I am not mistaken, you are going to train with Mike Sidebottom Sensei; correct? Please listen to him, and watch him carefully, as he knows what he's doing. Please go with an empty cup, as has been discussed before.

Best, Rachel
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2004, 06:14 PM   #23
Jack Robertson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 64
Offline
Quote:
Rachel Massey (rachmass) wrote:
If I am not mistaken, you are going to train with Mike Sidebottom Sensei; correct? Please listen to him, and watch him carefully, as he knows what he's doing. Please go with an empty cup, as has been discussed before.

Best, Rachel
Yep, I intend to go with an empty cup.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2004, 08:45 PM   #24
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
reply

Jack:

I echo the senior people here about learning from a book. The book you seem to be referring to is Best Aikido. This book needs an experienced aikikai instructor to interpret. Glad to hear you are finally getting to train. The book will serve you as a nice supplement, assuming you are studying hombu aikido. Otherwise, it might confuse you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2004, 01:24 PM   #25
Jack Robertson
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 64
Offline
I'm so excited.... I couldn't sleep last night............
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aiki Nage and Irimi Nage Demonstration TonyI General 55 01-22-2007 03:50 PM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 05:20 PM
committed attack/sensitive ukemi paradox Janet Rosen Training 30 10-13-2005 07:18 PM
Aikido With A Dog theblakeman Humor 38 09-23-2005 04:35 AM
Randori Seminar with George Ledyard Sensei aikibaka131 Seminars 11 10-24-2003 12:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:23 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate