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Old 02-11-2004, 09:48 PM   #1
Jeanine Perron
Location: Texas
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Uke with large Ego

I need insight on how to handle an Uke that hurts me every time we work together. He hurts other students as well. He teaches American Karate and uses karate when he does randori and other Aikido movements. I have talked to him several times before about his need for more control. I am a 2nd Kyu while he is a 5th Kyu. Today, I got a elbow strike to my nose. I am tired of putting up with lack of control for 1 and 1/2 years. His ego is also as big as his testosterone.
What to do while maintaining my health and Aikido like temperament?

Thank you,

Jeanine
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:03 PM   #2
Mark Jakabcsin
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Jeanine,

If you don't want to get hit in the nose move out of the way! It truly is that simple. The uke that you describe is really a treasure to be enjoyed. While he/she might cause you frustration from time to time enjoy the challenge. If you can learn to move, avoid, protect yourself and still complete the needed work you will be much better off. If that fails take advice form Don Angier 'kick him in the nuts, then apply aiki.'

mark

Take care,


Mark J.
www.charlotte-systema.com
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:22 PM   #3
Amassus
 
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I think this is where cooperation is important in Aiki training. Sure, this guy is providing useful strikes to test aikido techniques on, but at what cost to his partners.

Aikido is a place to have fun and learn at the same time. Jeanine doesn't sound like she is having fun. Good strikes do not allow for an arrogant attitude either. If the guy can continue to give honest attacks but leave his ego off the mat, life would surely be easier.

The next step is to speak to the instructor of the club and voice your concern. Aikido to me is not just technique, but also attitude.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:26 PM   #4
Nacho_mx
Dojo: Federación Mexicana de Aikido
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There´s a lot in the aikido ol´ bag of tricks that you can use if you are willing. When you have trained regularly for some years, you begin to understand that when you take and control uke´s balance, they are quite in a vulnerable position and open to all kind of harmful and possibly deadly responses (this is the part in which we work on our selfcontrol and compassion for others). Ocasionally it may be acceptable to spice your technique, to get your point across, specially if you are past talking sense to him. Of course if you don´t feel like exercising this option you can always excuse yourself from practicing with him.
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:58 PM   #5
Bronson
 
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Refuse to work with him. In aikido we learn to protect ourselves. Standing up for yourself and your safety by telling him and your sensei that you refuse to work with him does not fall outside an "aikido like temperment"

It's been said that aikido teaches the spirit of loving protection for all things. I'm pretty sure if you check that includes you

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 02-11-2004, 11:26 PM   #6
PeterR
 
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Just curious - what's the size difference?

If he's much bigger your dojo has a major problem.

Same size - you've got an opprotunity.

Much smaller - the problem is yours.

Only half way tongue in cheek.


Last edited by PeterR : 02-11-2004 at 11:31 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-11-2004, 11:30 PM   #7
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Uke with large Ego

Quote:
Jeanine Perron wrote:
I need insight on how to handle an Uke that hurts me every time we work together. He hurts other students as well. He teaches American Karate and uses karate when he does randori and other Aikido movements. I have talked to him several times before about his need for more control. I am a 2nd Kyu while he is a 5th Kyu. Today, I got a elbow strike to my nose. I am tired of putting up with lack of control for 1 and 1/2 years. His ego is also as big as his testosterone.

What to do while maintaining my health and Aikido like temperament?

Thank you,

Jeanine
Has your sensei or senior students had a word to this guy about his lack of control?
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Old 02-11-2004, 11:46 PM   #8
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Bronson Diffin (Bronson) wrote:
Refuse to work with him. In aikido we learn to protect ourselves. Standing up for yourself and your safety by telling him and your sensei that you refuse to work with him does not fall outside an "aikido like temperment"
That may or may not be necessary, but it's pretty much guaranteed to cause resentment. I've seen that kind of approach almost destroy dojos before.

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what's an "aikido like temperment"? And why didn't Morihei Ueshiba require one from people like Sadateru Arikawa (the 9th dan) while they were damaging people?

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-12-2004, 12:07 AM   #9
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
That may or may not be necessary, but it's pretty much guaranteed to cause resentment. I've seen that kind of approach almost destroy dojos before.

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what's an "aikido like temperment"? And why didn't Morihei Ueshiba require one from people like Sadateru Arikawa (the 9th dan) while they were damaging people?

Best,

Chris
I can see how what you describe can happen but I've also seen it work the other way. We've got a guy who was like this. After nobody wanted to work with him and he was left standing on the mat without a partner a few times he got the point.

As for the "aikido like temperment"--I quoted it from the original post. Not exactly sure what it would entail myself

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:31 AM   #10
Williamross77
 
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well........

i would say that you could partner up and the moment you had the oppertunity punch him in the throut, just so he got your perspective. this is not un aiki, you should re harmonize him to the way. some times that means giving what you get. only if he is really bigger than you and the sensei has not done this first. but ultimatly if it were on the street he would need that Atemi to ditract his lack of control or aggression. do not become like him, make him become like you, maybe,,,

some will say that is not AIki, but you are there to harmonize and learn not to get beat up by some OUFe or how ever you spell it. protect yourself and one or two well placed knife strikes to the esophogus will even the field, i mean hey your no master yet you are allowed to make mistakes... IE "sorry i missed your shoulder are you ok?, just sit down and it will go away... so sorry i did it again, gosh i just need to learn more CONTROL don't you think?"

just dont kill him or do it in anger.he might identify with your plight. best of luck...

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:36 AM   #11
Williamross77
 
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oh yeah, 1 .5 years and still a Gokyu?

well don't be just like him, maybe ignoring him is the best way????????

i don't really know. when i see a student doing that to some other student i make them uke for me and put a litte fear into them, not bullying just fear. your sensei should handle this...

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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Old 02-12-2004, 01:43 AM   #12
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
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I think you can learn a lot faster, and a lot more safely, if you are not constantly at risk from your partner. In particular, learning difficult new moves seems to me to require trust--you'll have to be vulnerable while you're learning.

I was a crummy forward roller, took a long time to get it. One of the best moments of my aikido training was jumping a senior student at speed and having him throw me, with perfect control, at speed--I came up on my toes grinning from ear to ear. Best roll I'd ever done. Would never have happened if I'd been afraid of him or thought he would hurt me.

My advice would be to talk to sensei about this if you possibly can. It may just get you a lecture on how to protect yourself better (happened to me once) but that's useful too.

Mary Kaye
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Old 02-12-2004, 03:15 AM   #13
kironin
 
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Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
And why didn't Morihei Ueshiba require one from people like Sadateru Arikawa (the 9th dan) while they were damaging people?

Best,

Chris
Just maybe because any wisdom he had was more hype than reality ?

some essays by Ellis come to mind.

Craig
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Old 02-12-2004, 03:49 AM   #14
kironin
 
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Re: Uke with large Ego

Quote:
Jeanine Perron wrote:
I need insight on how to handle an Uke that hurts me every time we work together. He hurts other students as well. He teaches American Karate and uses karate when he does randori and other Aikido movements. I have talked to him several times before about his need for more control. I am a 2nd Kyu while he is a 5th Kyu. Today, I got a elbow strike to my nose. I am tired of putting up with lack of control for 1 and 1/2 years. His ego is also as big as his testosterone.

What to do while maintaining my health and Aikido like temperament?

Thank you,

Jeanine
I ran several responses over in my head, but as a teacher myself it keeps coming to where is your teacher in all of this ? I would feel pretty dissapointed if one of my students felt that they had to go to the internet rather than talk to me or that I hadn't taken care of such a situation long before a year had passed.

You talk about lack of control and ego, it's not clear whether you feel what he does is intentional or not.

If it's perceived as intentional, I can't imagine letting a new student intentionally hurt other students in my classes for a over a year. If a new student appears to be problem for other new students, he generally finds me as a partner until I feel I know what's his story and then some of my senior students and then the anyone. Nothing overt.

On the other side, if he is just being aggressive and a bit wild in his attacks and my 2nd kyu student is having trouble handling that I would want to look closely at what is going on.

It would be pretty stupid if it came down to kneeing someone in the nuts or overt refusals to practice with certain individuals in class. But I suppose that is going to happen as long as some think all there is to teaching class is to demo a technique several times quickly and then standback to let mayhem ensue for several minutes and then repeat.

Craig
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:39 AM   #15
Creature_of_the_id
 
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I'm a firm believer that you cant change other people, you can give them the opportunity to change and they can choose or not to choose to take that oportunity. but often they do not understand why they should.

But, one thing that you can change, is yourself.

in a case like this I believe you should ask yourself why he bothers you so much?

is it because he is highlighting problems in your technique when you would prefer to believe there are none?

there can be many reasons why it would bother you, but surely in trying to change him and his actions you are fighting against him.

where is the harmony in that?

why not find what it is inside you that is bothered by him and then change it? that way he can continue to do what he is doing and you have changed something inside you which either changes your technique and stops you getting hit or changes your beliefs and stops your ego from being bruised.

then there is no fighting of any sort, no one is hurt and the situation is resolved because you understand exactly what it is you do and do not have control over.

you have control over your own actions, movement and reactions within any given moment. Aikido teaches awareness of what you have control over in order to give you freedom of movement. You dont try and change the attack, you take what is given and choose your own course of action from the choices of technique available...

that was kinda long winded wasnt it

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Old 02-12-2004, 04:48 AM   #16
happysod
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Jeanine, does he attack everyone in the dojo the same way with the same intensity? If so, then why have none of dan grades tried to remove some of his tendencies to over aggression? If he only trains this way with the more senior students, I'd take it as a rather poor, back-handed compliment in that he believes you're capable of handling that level of aggression and work on making sure you protect yourself more.
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Old 02-12-2004, 07:53 AM   #17
Jeanine Perron
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To Mark Jakabcsin

"If you don't want to get hit in the nose move out of the way! It truly is that simple. The uke that you describe is really a treasure to be enjoyed"

Your first question should be: which technique are you doing? I was teaching this guy a Ushiro Ryokatatori Kaiten Iriminage. There was no way to avoid a hit with that close of a technique. We were the only two people in the room for practice. It is a special practice for those who want to excel. No one else showed up.

Retaliation should not be used on the mat. He has hit others in response to their aggressiveness. Yes, he is a hypocrite.

Jeanine
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Old 02-12-2004, 08:18 AM   #18
Jeanine Perron
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To answer some questions:

I am 112 pounds 5'4" in height and he is 5'8" and weighs around 225.

Does the instructor know about his aggressivness, I don not know yet? I have called a special meeting with the instructor today.

In fact, the more he hurts me, the more I become softer in my techniques with him. When he kicks (we are supoose to hold our hand out with a knife and let the person ligtly kick the knife out of our grasp), there is no way to avoid being kick. Others in the thread have responsed with "get out of the way". If I did that, then I would not be allowing the Uke to learn the technique. This guy kick my arm so hard that I felt stars and I had a bruise from the kick.
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Old 02-12-2004, 08:34 AM   #19
Jeanine Perron
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Ian,

There is only one other belt higher than me in this dojo.

Yes, he does treat me with more aggression. I have my thoughts on that as well. Off the mat, we are joking and talking. He brings his aggression to the mat.

For two years, I have studied solo with 3 black belt Aikido/Omei teachers before I came to this other dojo. I have never gotten hurt with con tolled techniques. Yet I was flying all around the room and being thrown in an Aikido style manner.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Jeanine
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Old 02-12-2004, 08:54 AM   #20
Jeanine Perron
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Craig and Mary,

Thanks for your response. I have scheduled a private meeting with my instructor today. I have been trying to handle this situation myself by emailing him, talking to him, and by showing him in techniques that one does not have to use muscle to perform a technique.

All has failed, so I wanted a students advice on how they might handled a bad Uke.

In the past with this Uke, when I have performed a technique swiftly and correctly without muscle and with control, he falls and complains about his arthritis and gets up and then muscles the next technique on me. I think in retaliation. In turn, I get hurt and ignore him as soon as possible. I think to "fight back" would not be a good idea.

He hates to be thrown and he complains about getting his wrist torqued. Bad Uke and bad Nage.

I hope all goes well in this meeting.

Thank you,

Jeanine
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Old 02-12-2004, 09:41 AM   #21
Ron Tisdale
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Sounds to me like you've got a bully and a whiner. Just from what you have said. Because of the size difference and his experience with another martial art, I don't believe escalation will work with him.

1) I would never train with that person without supervision...ever.

2) I would speak to the instructor privately about his behavior on the mat.

3) When training under supervision with him, work purely on form...no fast or hard technique untill the instructor resolves your problem.

One thing though...I think Mark is correct in that this uke's experience and power represent a huge opportunity for your dojo. Experienced folk from other arts do a lot to improve our technique in many ways. But bullying on the one hand, and whining on the other should not be tolerated.

Best of luck with this,

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-12-2004, 10:00 AM   #22
John Boswell
 
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Not only is that guy a bad Uke... he's a whiney baby. Your Sensei is the one that needs to explain the purpose of attacks during training: committed, but non-damaging.

It is for the Uke's protection, as well as your own (nage), that Uke's attack the way they do. Your Sensei MUST stress the importance of it all. If he doesn't like his wrist being torqued, then he's in the wrong martial art... or he's freaking RESISTING the ACCEPTENCE of the technique!

http://143.207.8.139/cgi-bin/ubb/ult...c&f=9&t=000116

This is a link that may address some concerns you have.

Really, my only other piece of advice would be to A) Extend like you never have before and B) ATEMI! He comes in with an elbow to the face... punch him in the ribs. He kicks your hand way too hard? Pull back so that he kicks the knife and NOT your hand.

Your Sensei has TOTALLY got to take control of this situation. The fact that he hasn't noticed or been effective up till now is a red flag, imho. You need to seriously think about that as well. I have no idea who your instructor is, but it sounds like he needs to establish some serious authority and discipline in the dojo.

2 cents.

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Old 02-12-2004, 10:12 AM   #23
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, if you have already talked with him several times, simply respectfully bow and refuse to work with him. Be honest about why, his lack of control and to stick within the art being taught. Embarrassment can be a great motivator.

Talk with your Sensei. We had a gentleman who hurt several people in training and eventually Sensei asked them leave because it was a Dojo problem now.

Talk to your Sempai. As a senior student I feel it is part of my responsibility to facilitate a proper training environment for my kohai.

OTOH, you can learn about facing your own fears and being effective as tori/nage and uke by training with someone bigger and tougher. He may be an excellent training opportunity for you. Learn to blend and flow with his aggressiveness. While you are both a bit young in the art for that. Its an option.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 02-12-2004, 10:37 AM   #24
happysod
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Quote:
Pull back so that he kicks the knife and NOT your hand.
Totally agree with an addendum, angle the blade slightly so the point is towards the attacking foot - if he cannot (or will not) control his attack, he will cause himself pain/damage.

Agree with the other "whiny bully" comments - if you are willing to cause pain, you must be willing to accept as much or more pain in return.
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:43 AM   #25
Williamross77
 
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hear hear!!

claim your space!

explain if he can't take it ,,,he should not give it.

your sensei should be his partner for a while.

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
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