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Old 02-02-2004, 05:06 PM   #26
Janet Rosen
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I'm uke half the time, and I KNOW I'm not correct/perfect all the time I'm uke, that in fact my uke-waza sucks about the same as my nage-waza does. That's why I voted that yes, uke can be wrong.

Sometimes I don't give as committed an attack as I should.

Sometimes I don't stay as connected to nage as I should; I bail.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 02-02-2004, 05:16 PM   #27
Doka
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Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
I'm uke half the time, and I KNOW I'm not correct/perfect all the time I'm uke, that in fact my uke-waza sucks about the same as my nage-waza does. That's why I voted that yes, uke can be wrong.

Sometimes I don't give as committed an attack as I should.

Sometimes I don't stay as connected to nage as I should; I bail.
This is not "wrong"!

As Sh'te/Tori/Nage, we should not expect Uke to be right there where he should be, otherwise we could just do the technique any old way and scratch our nuts at the same time!!! We put our Uke there, we lead him/her there!!! If they are not there then we are wrong!!! If you "Suck" at being Uke, it is not wrong, because then every beginner would be wrong, and they are definitely not!!!

Lets face it, if you cannot do the technique properly, do not blame your Uke! A bad workman blames his tools!!! A bad Sh'te/Tori/Nage blames his Uke!!!
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Old 02-02-2004, 05:21 PM   #28
Doka
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Additional!!!

To those of you who voted "Yes!"

I hope you never get a "wrong" Uke in the street! I don't want to be reading your epitaph!!!

(no Joke!!!)
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Old 02-02-2004, 05:43 PM   #29
Janet Rosen
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Quote:
Mark Dobro (Doka) wrote:
This is not "wrong"!

As Sh'te/Tori/Nage, we should not expect Uke to be right there where he should be,
First of all, you really don't have to shout at me.

Second of all, I am not a beginner. I have been working for years just as hard on being a proper uke as I have being a proper nage. We are partners working together to learn. There is a difference between me as uke making a decision that my partner can take a particular challenge and between me just plain doing a crappy job of being uke.

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-02-2004, 05:44 PM   #30
PeterR
 
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Thank you Lynn and Janet for reminding me about the other half of my training. I'm embarrased that I looked at the question pretty onesidedly (is that a word?).
Quote:
Mark Dobro (Doka) wrote:
If you "Suck" at being Uke, it is not wrong, because then every beginner would be wrong, and they are definitely not!!!
Hi Mark;

I'm going to jump on this one. Forgive me but you are very off-base on this one.

Uke needs to be trained otherwise full power techniques are going to cause serious injury. As with any learned endeavor there is a right way and a wrong way - ergo a beginner can most definately be wrong.

Kata training - which is basically what we do - assums both tori and uke are very much aware of what is happening. Faced with a beginner one has two choices as Tori - either dumb down the technique or train up the beginner.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-02-2004, 05:50 PM   #31
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Mark Dobro (Doka) wrote:
Additional!!!

To those of you who voted "Yes!"

I hope you never get a "wrong" Uke in the street! I don't want to be reading your epitaph!!!

(no Joke!!!)
Uke and Tori exist in the dojo - in The Street there is no such thing as Uke - the point is Moot.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-03-2004, 09:54 AM   #32
AsimHanif
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I think regardless of what uke does it is an opportunity for nage to train. To me a good uke is one that doesn't act like we expect. Even if their ukemi is not good, it is then up to nage to protect them. If they roll away before we "do anything", then why is that? Did nage not invite them in and make uke feel welcome? Many times I notice that nage just wants to do "something", without regard for uke. If uke does not give you the energy you want then nage must deal with that. There are so many people in the dojo with different opportunities to train on many different levels why must everything be about the "throw or lock". I thought it was about harmonizing. Not every technique will look "classical".

Now with all that said - if uke is just being an a&%hole....
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Old 02-03-2004, 09:55 AM   #33
egoebel
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Quote:
Mark Dobro (Doka) wrote:
This is not "wrong"!

As Sh'te/Tori/Nage, we should not expect Uke to be right there where he should be, otherwise we could just do the technique any old way and scratch our nuts at the same time!!! We put our Uke there, we lead him/her there!!! If they are not there then we are wrong!!! If you "Suck" at being Uke, it is not wrong, because then every beginner would be wrong, and they are definitely not!!!
Yes they are. ('They' include me, BTW.)

Ukemi is 50% of training, so it follows that a beginner would have this half wrong too.

Part of ukemi is not getting hurt, maintaining a connection with nage, maintaining balance during the attack....and a whole bunch of things I can't name off the top of my head. Probably why my ukemi is 'wrong' much of the time. A proper attack is only a small part.
Quote:
Lets face it, if you cannot do the technique properly, do not blame your Uke! A bad workman blames his tools!!! A bad Sh'te/Tori/Nage blames his Uke!!!
You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the people that agree that uke can be wrong are also complaining about it. As a matter of fact you say 'expect Uke to be right'. I don;t expect uke to be right, and I certainly hope (s)he doesn't expect me to be completely right either. We're both practicing.

Should an errant uke ruin the technique for me? No.

Should (s)he ruin my training day? No.
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Old 02-03-2004, 10:17 AM   #34
indomaresa
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Quote:
Mark Dobro (Doka) wrote:
The only "Wrong" in Aikido is in bad intention!
Bingo!

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 02-03-2004, 10:31 AM   #35
indomaresa
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Quote:
Eric Goebelbecker (egoebel) wrote:
Ukemi is 50% of training, so it follows that a beginner would have this half wrong too.
I've never had any problem with this aspect of being an uke, so I forgot that being an uke also includes doing proper ukemi.

always assumed that being a proper uke is to concentrate on attacking properly.

But when an uke is 'wrong' in this aspect, I don't think it really affect the outcome of the technique. The technique is successfull, it's just that the uke went splat due to their fault (for a lack of better term).

Unless there's an instance where bad ukemi caused a bad technique? Otherwise I still think ukes can't be wrong.

IMO, Ukes should polish their ukemi like hell before their techniques, because everybody's ukemi is their own responsibility.

Last edited by indomaresa : 02-03-2004 at 10:39 AM.

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The path is steep...
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Old 02-03-2004, 10:47 AM   #36
egoebel
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Quote:
Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
Unless there's an instance where bad ukemi caused a bad technique? Otherwise I still think ukes can't be wrong.

IMO, Ukes should polish their ukemi like hell before their techniques, because everybody's ukemi is their own responsibility.
When does the attack end and the ukemi start?

If uke attacks with a perfect shomen, but freezes (or goes limp) when it "misses", what should you do? Probably not what Sensei showed you, unless his uke did that too.

Maybe my use of the term ukemi is too broad? Perhaps uke-waza is what I should have said?
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Old 02-03-2004, 10:57 AM   #37
indomaresa
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heck, man

then you're referring to attack form and connecting, not the ukemi.

doing ukemi is a natural part of being an uke. How one attacks however, defines whether they are a good uke or not.

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Old 02-03-2004, 01:20 PM   #38
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Hi All

Sorry if it looked like I was too hard there. I read it back and I agree it wasn't really forum friendly. Looked more like an email from work - mental note, don't take home a crappy day!!!

Let me explain that I don't read "wrong" in the question as simply making a mistake, or not being proficient. I read it as intention. Which why I said earlier:

"The only "Wrong" in Aikido is in bad intention!"
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Uke needs to be trained otherwise full power techniques are going to cause serious injury. As with any learned endeavor there is a right way and a wrong way - ergo a beginner can most definately be wrong.
Of course Uke needs to be trained. I think you are being very black and white with this. I think that this is something relative to level/experience. To say something is "wrong" is negative.
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Kata training - which is basically what we do - assums both tori and uke are very much aware of what is happening. Faced with a beginner one has two choices as Tori - either dumb down the technique or train up the beginner.
As for "dumb down the technique or train up the beginner", you do neither, you exercise control and execute the technique within the abilities of your Uke.

BTW, Janet, I wasn't shouting, and I too am not a beginner, I have more than 20 years of MA under my obi.

Peace!
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Old 02-03-2004, 01:45 PM   #39
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Attacking is part of being uke. My sensei has been making a point of that recently. The uke has to remember to continue to attack throughout entire technique. The uke needs to also be responsible for protecting their openings. If the uke doesnt' continue the attack, yeah, they are wrong. If they forget to protect their own openings, yeah, they are wrong.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 02-03-2004, 02:38 PM   #40
McIver
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[quote="Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa)"]But when an uke is 'wrong' in this aspect, I don't think it really affect the outcome of the technique. The technique is successful, it's just that the uke went splat due to their fault (for a lack of better term).

This can actually result in injury. If uke takes a fall inappropriate to the technique being applied, serious wrenching of joints can occur, particularly if nage has in fact applied the technique correctly. In this situation, I would say that uke was wrong.

One might make the argument that nage has the responsibility to alter the technique, and if nage outranks uke I would probably agree. Realistically, I do not know that this is always possible. There was one situation where I (a new student) applied a kotegaeshi, and uke took a break fall. Unfortunately, I had not applied the technique with sufficient force to warrant a break fall, and uke wrenched his shoulder. I felt awful, but in reviewing the technique with a deshi, it seemed there wasn't really anything I could have done differently.

I agree with Maresa, ukemi is extremely important for this reason, never mind all the others. Injuries, in addition to being no fun, interfere with training in ways that make one sad.
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Old 02-03-2004, 05:12 PM   #41
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Hi all,

1st post & I thought I'd put my 2 bob's worth in. :-D

I wouldn't say uke is "wrong".

I'd also say that shite is "wrong" either, unless they have agressive/malicious intentions.

In the end you have 2 people trying to learn something.

If uke comes in with the old straight arm shomen uchi, they need to learn to give an honest attack & leave their ego at the door.

(Aikido is all about karma & sometimes people have to learn this the hard way. Senior students should be able to see this & take things into hand without things getting heated.)

If shite gets smacked in the head, they need to learn how to avoid the attack... ;-)

If they do a kote gaeshi too fast for their uke & break uke's arm, they need to learn better sensitivity for the uke.

If uke can't handle a _reasonable_ technique delivered by shite, they might need to practise their ukemi.

If uke over-ukes so that they don't feel any pain & shite feels nothing, they might need to learn to overcome some fears.

If uke over-ukes & hurts themself flipping for something that only requires a roll, then they either need to learn better sensitivity to shite, or learn to flip better. ;-)

Cheers,

Stuart.
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Old 02-04-2004, 11:34 AM   #42
Ted Marr
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Not a simple question by any means. I would have to say that yes, uke is sometimes "wrong" in practice, but that it sets a dangerous precedent to label it as such. I define uke being "wrong" if they act in such a way as to endanger their own safety. Falling incorrectly falls into this category. But then again, in some sense, so does the very act of attacking. As for uke "resisting" a technique, because they know what is coming, that also endangers them. Either because someone will power through a technique and overwhealm their resistance, causing them injury, or because their resistance may result in nage changing techniqes, which, if done unexpectedly, can be pretty devastating.

At the same time, I don't think it is a good idea to tell beginners that their ukemi is wrong. Tell them that they can get hurt falling that way, or resisting that way, but don't tell them that the way they are moving is wrong. There is a lot to be learned from newbies about how your technique will look applied to an unsuspecting and untrained attacker, and telling them that they move wrong and need to shape up is denying yourself an opportunity to learn how to -make-them move correctly.
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Old 02-06-2004, 09:00 PM   #43
artsan
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Why Uke's can be wrong...

I wanted to throw my two cents in here since this issue presents itself every class. Please forgive me if this has been covered as I only read the first ten posts and my eyes started burning. Getting past forty is trickier than redirecting a committed uke!

I have found that many of the people who take Aikido as their first art (unlike many of you who have solid Karatedo, fighting backgrounds as I do) tend to be more passive than the average person who trains in the martial arts. Personally I have been amazed that these people stay in my classes, as I am an old style Aikido instructor. Not quite Saito Sensei style (more straight line than circular) but harder in the fact that my Iaido and Karatedo backgrounds and the bushido mindset seem to find their way into my techinques. I have long considered that learning Ukemi is an art within itself and an essential part of understanding to be an effective uke. Therefore in order for my "newbies" must learn to understand and give an effective attack to be able to be a good training/ rondori partner.

It is an interesting transition for the passive individual to undertake, and seems to be extremely rewarding when they hit Gokyu and things start to come together. Not only do they gain the ability to effectively redirect a strong and committed attack they can deliver one if needed.

Which brings me back to why the Uke can be wrong. Basically it comes down to commitment. As O'Sensei has been quoted in many Aikido publications: "life and death can be defined in a single technique". It took my maturation in Iaido to understand this. Without the uke's intent to harm present in the attack the strength of Aikido cannot be realized. Without the single-minded focus of the uke on the attack the nage can be ill prepared to blend with the technique. Many young Aikido instructors have taken a shomen-uchi on the head or a chudan tsuki in the gut by a strong uke. I am not one to think that the uke should alter his attack just so the instructor saves face. Many think this as disrespectful and they are fully entitled to do so. If one of my students "pulls" and attack out of respect I thank them and then ask them follow through next time.

This commitment can be achieved at the early stages of development by slowing down the speed but not the intensity of the attack. A chudan tsuki at 10% speed won't hurt badly but it should hurt a little. When the nage gains efficiency in their timing the speed increases until a full blast attack is a nage's best friend. Not everyone will attack like that but if a prepared Aikidoka meets a life or death attack the speed and power should resemble just another training session.

That's just my take on it. Hope you enjoyed it.

Artsan
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:37 AM   #44
indomaresa
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in self-defense, striking attacks can come like a drunken man's flailing, unfocused punches or mike tyson's cannonball straight punches. (just example, boxing fans please don't pounce)

both of them can hurt if we're not prepared for it.

IF our training has any self-defense purpose within ( however small ), then stylized attacks where ukes CAN be wrong is a big mistake.

however, to create order and proper training atmosphere in the dojo, an uke is expected to do what an uke should; attacking with a focus, and do ukemi afterward. I think too much of this can ill prepare practitioners of this art in real life.

but training 100% self-defense aikido isn't good either, so I try to do everything in moderation. Changing focus every once in a while.

The road is long...
The path is steep...
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Old 02-07-2004, 05:17 PM   #45
Doka
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Bravo Maresa,

I repeat (heck, for the 3rd time):

The only "Wrong" in Aikido is in bad intention!"

Peace!
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