Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-30-2004, 02:37 PM   #1
Avery Jenkins
 
Avery Jenkins's Avatar
Dojo: Litchfield Hills Aikikai
Location: Litchfield, CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 158
Offline
Average time to shodan

Does anyone have a good estimate on how long the average Aikikai student takes to reach shodan?

I'm not talking about required training hours so much as I am on-the-ground time.

Avery
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2004, 02:49 PM   #2
rachmass
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati/Huron Valley Aikikai
Location: Somerset Michigan
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 794
Offline
shodan

I know there was a poll about that, or a thread on the same subject, less than a year ago on this site. Perhaps Jun will chime in with where it is (I'm too lazy to look).

Since it varies widely from organization to organization, I think maybe the question would be "how long for the average USAF-ER person to get to shodan?" since you are in Jacobs-Pavlik Sensei's dojo.

I "think" the average for ER is around 7-8 years of regular training (3-4 times a week).

best, Rachel
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2004, 08:48 AM   #3
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,997
Offline
Hi Rachel,

Here's the poll, "How long did it take you to reach shodan in aikido?" that I took back in 2001:

http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=61

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2004, 10:26 AM   #4
AsimHanif
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 495
Offline
Jun, that's good data. It would be interesting to know what's behind the numbers. Do people continue to train after 6 years of not attaining shodan? Do organizations feel compelled to bestow rank on individuals after 6 or 7 years?

Interesting, this seems to take about the same amount of time to attain shodan in karate, although I constantly hear statements about how slow the aikido development process is. Which brings up to type of things we look for in an aikido shodan as opposed to a karate shodan.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2004, 10:30 AM   #5
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Unless I were a full time uchidaishi (sp?) in a prominent dojo, I wouldn't expect to attain black belt for at least 3 to 4 years minimum.

In my opinion, aikido has a lot of subtle details that are only learned in the "doing." Time plays a factor in learning all that. Notice my signature? It is one thing to "know" something, but without proper experience... you do yourself an injustice. This is what makes Aikido a "Way"... you gotta actually do it to get it.

2 cents

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2004, 11:57 AM   #6
Morpheus
Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope
Location: New York
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 36
United_States
Offline
Based on what's posted as the requirements for the USAF East, it is short of 4 years of "Actual" training time. Not calendar years, so I'd say between 4 and 5 years.

I would take that to mean, going to as much training as you can within the minimum time posted, paying full attention to instruction given, and working hard.

I'm going to be attending my first class next week. Have to make sure I follow my own comments in the previous paragraph. I forgot which site it was where Yamada Sensei stated that today's student would advance faster than those of the past.

The mere fact of it being that the instructors of today have a better understanding of what they were taught when they were students and are applying their insights into the training they give their students (not a quote, I'm just paraphrasing him).

Last edited by Morpheus : 01-31-2004 at 12:01 PM.

Qasim

**************************************
"If the enemy thinks of the mountains, attack like the sea; and if he thinks of the sea, attack like the mountains. - Miyamoto Musashi - 1584 - 1645
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2004, 03:24 AM   #7
aubrey bannah
Dojo: Yoshinkan Brisbane
Location: aust
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 34
Offline
A live in uchi deshi would grade for Shodan within a year, Nidan within the following year & Sandan within the next two years. If you are training 1600 - 1800 hrs a year with someone quailified to have a uchi deshi system in place this would be a requirement. Just to touch on the over side of this, I have heard Godan's bragging of having to their credit 1600 hrs in training. Other Sensei that I know had on average over 20000 hrs traing in 10 year's to gain their Godan's as full time uchi deshi.

Such powers I poccess for working in the political field have been derived from the spiritual field. Mahatma Gandhi.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2004, 04:07 AM   #8
rachmass
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati/Huron Valley Aikikai
Location: Somerset Michigan
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 794
Offline
Makes sense on that time frame if you are training 1,800 hours a year (5 hours a day, every day of the week, every day of the year); however some organizations, like the USAF-ER, only count training days, so it wouldn't be possible (that I know of) to progress that quickly through the ranks. Most of us practice somewhere around 5 days a week, which is only 260 days in a year if training steadily.

Remember too that the teacher has the say on when someone tests, so it can get really long between tests even if you have the days/hours to do so.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2004, 11:56 AM   #9
Nacho_mx
Dojo: Federación Mexicana de Aikido
Location: Mexico City
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 188
Offline
In our school the norm is two years of regular training and examining up to first kyu, then one year more to get shodan. However, it´s our sensei´s criterion, and not a fixed number of practice hours, which decides who can test for shodan. Thus I´ve seen shodan ranks achieved in a minimum of 2yrs.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2004, 03:43 PM   #10
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
That poll is interesting. I think the ratios are pretty spot on.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2004, 10:45 PM   #11
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
This has been discussed before, but I believe that in Japan, you can get your shodan in about 1 year of training. University dojos traditionally give nidan to the students upon graduation. Almost every one wears a black belt . The higher standards were set only for the foreigners for different reasons, one of them is that they believe training quality is lower outside of Japan, another is to keep gaijin higher ranking aikidoists under control and always inferior to the Japanese. You just look at the numbers and you will see that gaijin teachers with over 40 years of experience are only 4-5 dan, while some Japanese with same training period or less can attain 7-8 dan rank. I have trained occasionally with some of these nidan sandan with only 2-3 years experience and was not impressed at all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2004, 08:11 AM   #12
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
Offline
So it comes down to racism then?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2004, 11:04 AM   #13
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 632
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
So it comes down to racism then?
I would be hesitant to hang the whole issue on that hook; the difference in social context might also have a significant effect.

It isn't too terribly frequent that shodan and nidan open their own dojo in Japan, or believe themselves qualified to do so, either technically or socially, which is very different from the situation here in the States.

Just a thought....

Fred Little
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2004, 01:09 PM   #14
Avery Jenkins
 
Avery Jenkins's Avatar
Dojo: Litchfield Hills Aikikai
Location: Litchfield, CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 158
Offline
Just what I thought...going on 12 years now, no belt, I think I lost the race.

Avery

Avery Jenkins
www.averyjenkins.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2004, 01:17 PM   #15
rachmass
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati/Huron Valley Aikikai
Location: Somerset Michigan
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 794
Offline
Quote:
Just what I thought...going on 12 years now, no belt, I think I lost the race.
Don't feel bad Avery, it took me just as long. I started with one group and switched over after 8+ years (3 times a week), then it was another 4-5 (5-6 times a week) with my last teacher. So I just passed Sandan after 20 years of practicing! In the end it really doesn't matter much (although sometimes I think folks chose someone else to train with over me based on my lack of rank, but I could be wrong on that too , it could be lots of other reasons )

Best to you, Rachel
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2004, 01:53 PM   #16
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Most aikikai affiliated organizations I have been associated with take anywhere from 3.5 to 5 years for shodan-some instructors drag this out. The comparison with Japan may not be fair in the sense those who study there are often uchideshi. I did run across one sandan once who went to Japan and made sandan in 5 years-the lack of mat experience did show though. Aikido seems to be a lot more stringent in our ranks-many other martial arts (some taekwondo organizations) pop out black belts in 2 years. I also see a lot more high ranking grades (10th dans) in some of the other arts as well and rarely in aikido, even rarely at 9th dan. Tohei had his 10th at 32 or thereabouts, yet we only have 3 that I can recall (Tohei, Hikitsuchi, and Abe). The latter two were "verbal". Seems like after 40 or 50 years at least 9th dans would be awarded. I'm all for not watering down the ranks but with that much dedication these people should be recognized IMHO.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2004, 05:22 PM   #17
stuartjvnorton
 
stuartjvnorton's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Shudokan
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 225
Offline
Quote:
Rachel Massey (rachmass) wrote:
sometimes I think folks chose someone else to train with over me based on my lack of rank
Their loss.

Sounds like they could stand to learn a lot more than just technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2004, 09:23 PM   #18
G DiPierro
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 365
United_States
Offline
A while back I did some research on the comparative time to qualify for rank in several organizations. Below are my findings, compiled from various web sources. The number in the left column below each organization is the minimum number of practice days to that rank from the previous rank. Where there are two numbers listed with a slash between them, the second one indicates minimum number of months elapsed. The right column represents cumulative figures. Note, among other things, that one could reach yondan at hombu in slightly fewer days than one could reach shodan in the USAF East.

Code:
		USAF-E		MAF/CAF		ASU		AAA			Hombu

7-kyu								20/2	20/2				
6-kyu						30/3	30/3	30/3	50/5		
5-kyu		60	60	60	60	60/4	90/7	30/3	80/8		30	30
4-kyu		80	140	80	140	60/4	150/11	30/3	110/11		40	70
3-kyu		100	240	100	240	70/4	220/15	60/6	170/17		50	120
2-kyu		200	440	150	390	80/6	300/21	60/6	230/23		50	170
1-kyu		300	740	200	590	90/6	390/27	60/6	290/29		60	230
Shodan		400	1140	300	890	120/12	510/39	90/9	380/38		70	300
Nidan		600	1740	500	1390	400/30	910/69	50ai/18	560/56		200	500
Sandan		700	2440	600	1990	---/36	---/105	100ai/30 860/86		300	800
Yondan								200i/42 1280/128	300	1100

Last edited by G DiPierro : 02-05-2004 at 09:32 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2004, 10:18 PM   #19
stuartjvnorton
 
stuartjvnorton's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Shudokan
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 225
Offline
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
Note, among other things, that one could reach yondan at hombu in slightly fewer days than one could reach shodan in the USAF East.
I'd like to know average times as opposed to minimum times.

Because surely the average newbie USAF-E shodan is not as good as the average "newbie" hombu Yondan.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2004, 10:56 PM   #20
Thom Hansen
Dojo: Aikido Yuishinkai Cleveland Dojo
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 28
Australia
Offline
In Aikido Yuishinkai the average is 3.5 to 4 years with consistant training

Life is a gem .. Treasure every minute
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2004, 12:35 AM   #21
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
Quote:
Stuart Norton (stuartjvnorton) wrote:
Because surely the average newbie USAF-E shodan is not as good as the average "newbie" hombu Yondan.
I wouldn't be so sure about that....
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2004, 04:48 AM   #22
rachmass
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati/Huron Valley Aikikai
Location: Somerset Michigan
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 794
Offline
I don't know many people who received their rank in Japan, and those I know are Americans and possibly on the fast track, but I know three guys who came to my old dojo as shodan with two years of training, and they just looked like anyone with two years of training. I know one sandan from Japan with 9 years of training, and he felt like anyone else I'd ever met with 9 years of training. Nothing magical happened to these four guys I knew by living and training in Japan; they were just the same as every other bloke in my old dojo in terms of skill. Again, this is only a pool of 4, so it is quite limited.

Peace, Rachel
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2004, 07:26 AM   #23
Ted Marr
Location: Providence, RI
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 94
Offline
From what I've seen, when people from different types of martial arts get together and start talking, nobody cares much about rank. The only thing that holds any currency is how many years people have been studying and or teaching for. Sometimes with dispensation for having studied under someone particularly cool.

Which is why I really don't care that with 1.5 years of training under my belt, I'm only going for 4th kyu this spring sometime. I will probably have enough total hours to be a newly minted Hombu shodan by the time of my test. But as I see it, the only differences are that I don't have to deal with that skirt anytime soon, and I won't be able to officially teach other people if I were to move to somewhere where there was no Aikido to be had.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2004, 08:36 AM   #24
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
I don't suppose a Japanese shodan would ever be expected to teach - except at university dojos, whis is a kind of special dojo environment (so I've heard).
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2004, 09:08 AM   #25
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
I agree with Hanna, but I have seen much too many cases when Japanese visitors with sandan or yondan rank but only a few years of experience come to a dojo whose teacher is a 15 years shodan or nidan. As etiquette requires, these guys sit in the highest place and are even asked to teach, whilst some of the students who are only 2nd or 1st kyu have much longer experience than these guys. What do you think about that?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
YEY but how long daniel loughlin Testing 23 11-21-2005 12:03 PM
Time to Train with Arrival of New Baby Jeff Lynne Training 10 05-10-2004 10:59 PM
syllabus, shodan and beyond Bob H. Testing 4 10-02-2003 07:01 AM
Shodan - lessons learned siwilson Training 0 12-20-2002 03:46 PM
High-ranking Non-japanese Yudansha Kami General 86 11-09-2001 03:38 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:01 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate