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Old 01-10-2004, 03:10 PM   #1
Lone Swordsman
 
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Dojo: Academy of Martial Arts Yoseikan
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Question Yoseikan, the neglected style?

I never see much discussion of Yoseikan on the forums. Is it really that obscure (or unpopular) a style? Be brutally honest if you have to.
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Old 01-10-2004, 06:58 PM   #2
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Quote:
Roger Fingas (Lone Swordsman) wrote:
Be brutally honest if you have to.
Okay. I don't like Canadians.

As for the topic, Yoseikan, if you start talking about it, I'll post at least one reply. Two, if you are thought provoking.

Your move.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 01-11-2004, 11:10 AM   #3
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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I've never heard of it. Yoshinkan offshoot, I'd guess, given Yoshinkan prescence in Canada and the name.
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Old 01-11-2004, 11:19 AM   #4
Steven
 
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Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote:
I've never heard of it. Yoshinkan offshoot, I'd guess, given Yoshinkan prescence in Canada and the name.
Not affilitated in any way to Yoshinkan.

see:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/enc...sp?entryID=781

or

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/enc...sp?entryID=782
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Old 01-11-2004, 12:25 PM   #5
Lone Swordsman
 
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Strange, that second AJ entry states that Yoseikan is competitive, but my sensei has said explicitly that we don't and shouldn't compete. On the other hand I've heard no mention of Hiroo Mochizuki, so perhaps that competitiveness is something Minoru's son introduced in his own branch.
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Old 01-11-2004, 06:26 PM   #6
sanosuke
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please correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Yoseikan Budo is not intended to teach aikido only? instead they also teach karate and judo classes in their HQ. just curious...
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Old 01-11-2004, 06:39 PM   #7
PeterR
 
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OK I'll bite.

The elder Mochizuki was not so much a martial arts genius as a gifted I want to get into everything type of person. One could say he saw Budo as a whole rather than a series of specialties. He had the added advantage of getting to study with some of the best - especially with respect to Judo and Aikido. Unlike Tomiki though, who tended to keep his various arts seperate (yes there were cross influences) he created what could be called a Sogo Budo.

From what I've heard he pulled it off with respect to himself but created something too complicated for the average. The system in Japan has never created something awsome and really is on the decline - never was that popular. Elsewhere, Yoseikan has become somewhat psychotic. You have heavy karate with a bit of Aikido, to Aikido with a bit of Karate, and often poor across the board.

That said there are people within the system that are pretty good - above the average.

Some of the worst Aikido I've seen was Yoseikan and that included one of their students that joined my dojo for a time.

I visited Kimada sensei's Yoshinkan dojo in Toronto and one of the most impressive people there, Aikido wise, was a young Japanese lady who had previously trained in Yoseikan.

I guess what I'm trying to say that like all Aikido styles it runs the gauntlet. However, I can't help but think of the old saying "Jack of all trades, master of none".

The competitiveness is from the son. An attempt, I suspect, to increase the popularity abroad.
Quote:
Roger Fingas (Lone Swordsman) wrote:
Strange, that second AJ entry states that Yoseikan is competitive, but my sensei has said explicitly that we don't and shouldn't compete. On the other hand I've heard no mention of Hiroo Mochizuki, so perhaps that competitiveness is something Minoru's son introduced in his own branch.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-13-2004, 12:00 AM   #8
Lone Swordsman
 
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My understanding is that we learn elements (little, actually) of karate and judo mainly to simulate effective attacks. It's also to present better options when pinned.
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Old 01-13-2004, 02:49 AM   #9
darin
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I believe the reason Yoseikan isn't so well known or practiced like other styles of aikido is more to do with geography than having the "worst aikido".

In Japan, the Yoseikan HQ is located in Shizuoka City instead of Tokyo or Osaka. Unlike Yoshinkan, Tomiki and Aikikai Yoseikan doesn't have schools in Japan's top universities or connections with politicians, beaurocrats and high profile businessmen.

In the 1950s the Japanese and French governments financed Mochizuki's trip to Paris. Since then he and his son have built up a large following in Europe. It was only in the 1970s that a teacher was sent to America and Australia. Patrick Auge has done a lot to promote Yoseikan in the US and Canada. Yoseikan Karate is more popular in Australia.

Another reason is it takes a long time to become a qualified instructor. The other styles seem to be pumping out new teachers every year.
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Old 01-13-2004, 03:15 AM   #10
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Darin Hyde (darin) wrote:
I believe the reason Yoseikan isn't so well known or practiced like other styles of aikido is more to do with geography than having the "worst aikido".
I hope you didn't pick or choose from my post to come up with the conclusion that I said it had the worst Aikido. I just mentioned a few of my experiences and opinions as to why.
Quote:
Another reason is it takes a long time to become a qualified instructor. The other styles seem to be pumping out new teachers every year.
Well how long and how many? I can only think of a half dozen qualified instructors under 40 in the JAA and not that many more above. Not sure about the situation in the Aikikai.

You might have a case with respect to Geography. The deshi of the Shodokan Shihan are drawn from a pretty large talent pool provided by the universities - they are the ones that eventually become instructors. If Yoseikan has a dearth of University clubs I could see this as a difficulty.

As I understand it Yoseikan for years has been centred in France. At least with respect to Quebec that is where a lot of the source comes from.

Last edited by PeterR : 01-13-2004 at 03:20 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-13-2004, 08:26 AM   #11
Steven
 
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Quote:
Darin Hyde (darin) wrote:
Another reason is it takes a long time to become a qualified instructor. The other styles seem to be pumping out new teachers every year.
Teachers or black belts? For some organizations like the Yoshinkan, there is a difference and has specific requirements to be granted an instructors certificate.
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Old 11-15-2004, 03:05 PM   #12
Dominic Toupin
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Quote:
Roger Fingas wrote:
I never see much discussion of Yoseikan on the forums. Is it really that obscure (or unpopular) a style? Be brutally honest if you have to.
Maybe it's because aikikai is the most popular one and the style and the names !!! of the Yoseikan techniques are very different. I'm Shodan in Yoseikan Budo and when I do some aikikai training session, It's really hard to follow with those bizarre names and uke reaction that I'm not familiar with.
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:20 AM   #13
darin
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Yeah Peter I think I did pick and choose from your post. But hey, anything for some aiki conversation right? Ok I will give you my honest oppinion of Yoseikan Aikido. Firstly, the style I learnt isn't traditional Yoseikan. Although the techniques are the same the execution is very similar to Tomiki and Yoshinkan. I have only trained once in the Yoseikan Hombu in Shizuoka under Mochizuki Minoru way back in 1996. I found the aikido techniques there to be more ritual than real which may be due to the large amount of kids in the class. The kids and beginners learn basic aikido but once you get close to black belt its all judo. I am not saying its not effective but its definalely not "aikido".
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Old 11-16-2004, 01:10 PM   #14
Dominic Toupin
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Another reasons why Yoseikan is a neglected style is because of the tension that exist in the group.
I got into a good discusion with Phil Farmer about it. Check http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6281
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:56 AM   #15
phil farmer
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Hi Dominic,

In one sense you might be right when it comes to Yoseikan in North America. The truth is, in Japan, one of the other posts was correct, Minoru Sensei never bothered with the political or even organizational aspects. He spent every day polishing the art and left the organizational aspects to his senior students, who never did much with it. They retained a very closed, Japanese mentality and made it difficult for others to spread the art. Also, Minoru Sensei was well known for, well there is no delicate way of saying it, pissing people off. He did it with the Kodokan and he did it with Daito Ryu, when he was a guest at the 1992 Friendship Demonstration and gave a speech where he took them to task for their poor technique and their unrealistic attacks. So, that is a big part of the lack of spread of the art from Japan.

On the other hand, Hiroo Sensei has spread the art to 28 countries across Europe, North Africa, Madagascar, and several Carribean Islands. Plus, the U.S. and Canada. We have dojo that are more karate oriented in some areas while in others it is aiki/jiujitsu oriented. The system requires skills in all areas. At the shodan level, even in the traditional style as Minoru Sensei presented it,it was not purely or even mostly judo. In fact, it is much more Gyoku Shin Ryu jiujitsu, a now defunct art that Minoru Sensei was a Dan rank in. Where it is seen is in the hallmark sutemi throws that we use. Also, the Dan ranks begin to focus more on the Katori Shinto Ryu of Minoru Sensei. He modified KST wherever he thought it needed it. That explains the man, always speaking and acting out his own mind.

His son, Hiroo Mochizuki is much the same way. Oh yes, and the competition, well the purpose of the competition is to allow us to get as close to true martial (life and death) combat as we can and still be safe. That is why we use padded bokken (tchobo), padded club (tambo) and padded knife (kombo) with full protective gear. In the competition format (which no one has to participate in) with the padding, it becomes possible to punch, kick, strike with weapons and throw and pin safely and with few restrictions on how one may attack, unlike Tomiki where the attacks are limited. It is not to be a sport, although that is how it is referred to in France (sportif), but a true educational and martial experience. According to the grandson of Minoru Mochizuki, Mitchi Sensei, Yoseikan Budo is unique precisely because it uses an aiki mindset and the circular movements of aiki to respond to attacks.

For the post who saw Yoseikan practiced poorly, let me assure you that there are many throughout the world that are very effective practitioners. At the Dan ranks, all of the skills will be performed, karate, aiki, jiujitsu, kick boxing, and more (Mitchi Sensei even throws in a bit of Capoera now and then).
You just haven't worked out with experience people and there are not many representatives in Japan these days.

Phil Farmer
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:49 AM   #16
rachel
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Quote:
Another reason is it takes a long time to become a qualified instructor. The other styles seem to be pumping out new teachers every year.
Not true. I've been studying Aikido for 15 years, and I am not yet good enough to be an instructor. I think that it is rather insulting to many very good instructors for you to suggest that it is easy to achieve rank or skill.

Last edited by rachel : 11-19-2004 at 11:50 AM. Reason: incomplete
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Old 11-19-2004, 08:06 PM   #17
darin
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
Not true. I've been studying Aikido for 15 years, and I am not yet good enough to be an instructor. I think that it is rather insulting to many very good instructors for you to suggest that it is easy to achieve rank or skill.
Who says you are not yet good enough? We had the same problem here and eventually all the best students left the style because our teacher refused to let them have their own schools. Eventually he gave in but they still had to go to him for gradings. I heard that in Seifukai once you get to dan grade you can grade anyone up to one or two grades below yours.

I think there should be standard requirements for becoming an instructor and it shouldn't be up to the discretion of certain high grade teachers who are just being over protective of their position.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:10 PM   #18
bob_stra
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Roger

IMHO, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said 'obscure' - for what ever reason.

Not that many Yoseikan clubs around AFAIK. (mostly, when one searches for Yoseikan on the net, they find yoseikan karate).

I've done a bit of it (6 months) - what did you want to discuss abt it?
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:53 PM   #19
rachel
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Quote:
Who says you are not yet good enough?
Actually, I do. Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of Aikido, and I sometimes have instructed children's classes. I'm certainly of no level to have my own dojo, and many people that think they are, aren't. Teaching is part of the learning process of Aikido (and anything.) Everytime I teach a class, even to children, I learn things about my own style. Yes, I can teach, but I cannot without having ultimate guidance from my sensei.
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Old 11-20-2004, 10:09 PM   #20
Robert Cheshire
 
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Even Hiroo and Mitchi Mochizuki mention how they learn things nearly everytime they teach. Actually, I've found that teaching kids is fun, but, a lot harder than teaching adults. If you keep teaching them you are off to a great start.

Guess what - as good as I'm sure your sensei is (s)he was once a begining instructor too. Keep at it. Find one of your students and ask them how they liked class, what they liked,what they didn't and why they didn't, what they would like to see in the future. Use this information to find out what you think is working and make changes as needed.

One of the things I think is great about Yoseikan, at least here in the United States, is that you start as an assistant instructor at sankyu. This way once you reach the dan ranks you have experience teaching. I know it helped me and have seen it develop other students into good instructors.

Robert Cheshire
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www.yoseikanbudo.us
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Old 11-24-2004, 07:28 AM   #21
Dominic Toupin
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

Do you teach only Yoseikan Aikido to kids ? I think that kids should get more interested by Yoseikan Budo (the complete system with competition)
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Old 11-24-2004, 09:09 AM   #22
Eric Cyr
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

[quote=Shaun Ravens]Okay. I don't like Canadians.



That's not very nice!

Guess what! When the towers where down I was there giving my respect! I am Canadian and proud to be but I am also proud of all the shared accomplishments that both Canada and the United States have enjoyed e.g.(peace!!)
War sucks

You wanted to be political

I like Americans, I like everyone, including people that don't like Canadians.
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Old 11-24-2004, 09:42 AM   #23
phil farmer
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Re: Yoseikan, the neglected style?

We do teach the entire system to children, at least in my classes. The addition of the full range of skills for our childrens classes greatly enhances their physical abilities. In fact, at our international meeting in France this summer, I was part of the process for rewriting the children's curriculum and it has been redesigned to meet the physical emotional and social developmental stages of children. We use games to teach balance, interaction skills and much more. Yes we do teach atemi, throws (but absolutely no joint locking because of the danger to tendons, ligaments and joints) and we put them in proper equipment and teach them to use the padded weapons. In Europe, Yoseikan Budo is being used as the physical education program in parts of several countries.

Phil Farmer
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