Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-30-2003, 10:20 AM   #1
actoman
Dojo: USA Martial Arts Center
Location: West Virginia
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 88
United_States
Offline
Talking Aikido=Stand Down?

I have a recent inkling that I am way too nice to many people. Either they are intimidated by me, and I don't think they are, or I am too nice and outgoing for their arrogance to affect me.

I cant put my finger on it, but I feel that 'treat others how you would like to be treated' is out the window. I feel that if you are going to try to step on me, than I have the right if bad enough to try to step back on you. Right or Wrong?

I don't think that being nice and outgoing is such a bad thing. Others might see it as peeonish, but I don't and Aikido fits me to a t because of that nature.

Anything you want to add about assholes in the world and how to deal when you want to explode.?

Sorry, just venting
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 11:06 AM   #2
Ian Upstone
Location: Sussex
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 80
Offline
I think treating others how you'd like to be treated is always the best option. The world would be a far better place for it.

Unless of course, we were all masochists.

Ian
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 11:17 AM   #3
Pretoriano
 
Pretoriano's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Santa Fe
Location: Aragua Venezuela
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 130
Venezuela
Offline
Circle

A disciple looks for spiritual path a the Monastery of Sceta.

The priest said: "give one coin to everyone who insult or bother you"



For a year he did so, the he went back to learn the next step…

"You go to town to buy some food for me said the priest".

When the disciple left, the priest dressed himself as a bum and took a shorcut to the gate of town… and he started to insult the guy.

"Good! The disciple comented to the bum, for a year I have to pay a coin to everyone that insulted me, now I can be insulted for free, without expending!

Being heard that the priest changed clothes and said: Right there! You go now for the next step!

(Coelho)

Praetoriano
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 12:05 PM   #4
JasonB
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 28
Offline
The Golden Rule seems to be missing the second half.

At first treat others as you would like to be treated. After that, treat them the same way that they treat you.

It's great to be outgoing and positive when you first meet people. After the initial exchange you need treat them the same way they're treating you. After all, if someone is being nasty then you must assume that individual is treating you the way they'd like to be treated.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 01:09 PM   #5
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Jason,

There is a saying

"when you make an Assumption, you make an ass of U and Me"

Please do not assume that people who have an 'unpleasant manner" are doing it baceuse they want to be treated "negatively". Many of us have Medical Behavioral Disorders, and many of those of us here on Aikiweb are specifically Trying to Do Something About It.

my dearest friends are the ones who continued to be outgoing & positive toward me, even though i may have been "not so nice" at first impression...Isn't it better to be forgiving and inclusive instead of making a snap judgement?

Thank you

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 01:41 PM   #6
Kyri Honigh
Dojo: Aikido Curacao
Location: Curacao
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 50
Offline
When one shows great self-control and distances himself from the unpleasant person, you can actually only benefit from taking such a position. 1. You show that you are above the level of wanting to exact revenge on the other person. 2. Not being as nasty as the other person, leaves more room open for reconciliation.

Ofcourse one should avoid becoming a punching bag. But it's always better to let people know how you feel in a controlled manner.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 02:31 PM   #7
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
With a calm mind it's possible to deflect away, blend with, and/or "lighten" verbal attacks made by other people, without engaging them directly on the level they try to provoke from you.

But ... there are people who are very sneaky and good at dodging issues and trying to manipulate you on a subtle level.

Those may require atemi.

I had a co-worker who kept trying to do things like that when I started working at this company. Subtle ways to make me do more of his tasks, or to make me look stupid in front of boss, etc.

He did it by being "super-relaxed".
He always had this plastic smile on his face.
Blending with his subtle attacks was very difficult, so instead I just started delivering one atemi after another.

I made him look like a fool in front of the boss instead, and I let him know several times in no uncertain terms where he can go shove it.

I calculated my attacks counterattacks carefully and always supported them with logic - enough to expose his scheming-behind-the-back.
Since he specialized in subtle attacks, he kept being completely caught offguard by sudden outbursts of verbal aggression from me.

Now he is a lot more careful about trying his old tricks.

Last edited by shihonage : 12-30-2003 at 02:41 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 03:09 PM   #8
JasonB
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 28
Offline
Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Jason,

There is a saying

"when you make an Assumption, you make an ass of U and Me"
Yeah, but that's a stupid saying. Using that saying is most often just an aggressive way to get in someone's face, insult them and act like they're the one who is doing something wrong. In addition, that saying is just plain wrong. We make assumptions all the time. Right now, I'm assuming that there isn't someone crouching under my desk waiting to ambush me. I wouldn't feel like an ass at all if my assumption turned out to be wrong. In fact, I'd be pretty darn shocked.

As for applying my statement to people with medical behavioural [sp] disorders...I stand by the statement.

Negative response conditioning is one valid form of behaviour modification. If you meet someone for the first time, insult them and then they treat you badly...you've gotten your first indication that you've done something wrong. Without this type of social response you'd have no reason to modify your own behaviour.

So as a person with a medical condition, why do you feel that it's important to deal with your problem? Why not just chalk it up to your medical condition and continue to be nasty to people? Because if you don't work on it, you will find it difficult to function in society. Which illustrates my point perfectly.

So what gives me the right to comment on behaviour disorders? Because I spent most of my childhood in therapy learning how to cope in social situations. I am hyperactive and as a child I had problems forming emotional bonds based on some early trauma. Because of this I lacked most social skills. This was apparent to me based on other's reactions to me in social situations and it also made it difficult for me to function in normal life situations.

I guess you made an assumption about me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 04:34 PM   #9
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Jason i believe you have directly contradicted yourself from one post to the next.

i'm not gonna go into any stories or justifications here, i think actually , ultimately we are in some kind of agreement. I simply objected to how the statment was worded.

Nothing else that my justifying ego is trying to say here really seems necessary.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 06:39 PM   #10
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Diego CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 561
Offline
Wow, this thread is turning out really good! Pretty interesting although the ideas are on the surface pretty straightforward.

As for my opinion.. I think that the answer to the question "don't I have the right to be verbally violent in response to verbal violence" is in a certain way "yes".. just as much as it is also true about physical violence. Of course it is justified, since you are not the aggressor. On the other hand, why are we all studying aikido? I think most of us believe, as far as physical violence is concerned, that violent attacks can be resolved in a way other than destroying the attacker with a simple counter attack. So why isn't it true with verbal violence? I have the same opinion that I have towards physical violence: although I in some sense have a "right" to hit back, I also have the OPPORTUNITY to end it another way. So I will choose to NOT escalate the violence.

I guess it is just a matter of practice--just like Aleksey said, your skill gives you a first option of blending and calming, with the need for atemi being a variable need.
--JW

Last edited by JW : 12-30-2003 at 06:42 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 07:01 PM   #11
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Diego CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 561
Offline
a true story

Ooo wait this thread wouldn't be complete without a little inspirational story. My friend goes to some late night diner with some friends one night. They are seated next to some guy who is already there, eating and having some coffee or something. Well, my friend was wearing this new shirt that he got, which was a "nice" shirt, I guess maybe a little flashy or dressy or something (haven't seen it). So this guy who is eating sees the shirt and starts picking on my friend, calling him a fag and insulting his shirt, making all kinds of derogatory comments.. anyway my friend doesn't respond or anything, and his friends are getting nervous and asking him what should we do, etc.. but he says don't worry about it... anyway this mean guy just doesn't stop. But then the waiter comes around with the checks together, and my friend takes both of them, saying this guy's check is on me (it was just some coffee and a little food). The guy instantly changes his demeanor, feels bad, starts apologizing, and all that.. saying how bad he was.. So that was the end of that.

Funny.

But I guess there is a catch to the story, although it might be considered actually the best part by some: One of the things the guy said when he was apologizing and thanking my friend for the meal was something to the effect of "I'm actually really rich." So actually my friend's act of kindness was also a form of insult, from a macho point of view. Implying the guy needed financial help.. kind of "insulting his manhood" or something I guess..
Take from it what you will..
--JW
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 09:21 PM   #12
vanstretch
Dojo: Kyushinkan
Location: Roswell,GA
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 123
United_States
Offline
hi andy, thanks for starting this thread! when I deal with assholes and feel that I am about to explode, well 5 minutes has usually passed and I am already driving them to jail!!! and damn, it feels good somedays. to stop hearing them screaming at me, I just turn up the classical music for a bit and they are usually asleep by the time we get to the intake port.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 09:39 PM   #13
Colin Moynier
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 9
Offline
This is a good thread, I also have a little story. One day a few months ago in PE we were playing basketball and I had to guard this one guy who wasnt too good and got ticked off because I was doing a good job, not really fouling him either, so then he gets ticked and starts cussing me out and trying to push me. After a while of being cussed at I finally gave him a little elbow and the teacher told us to knock it off, afterwards told him I didnt mean to disrespect him and he seemed ok afterward. But then again I was basically apologizing for nothing which isn't really aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 11:08 PM   #14
Rich Stephens
Location: California
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 28
Offline
I'm not sure Aikido is intended to teach us to run away from or ignore conflict, be it physical or psychological. I've often heard this said by people, that if possible, running away is the best thing to do, but...is that actually the way of Aikido?

I keep thinking back to the explanation of "the ethics of defense in combat" in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere (Westbrook and Ratti). If you're unfamiliar with it, they describe four situations ranging from least to most ethical: Least being attacking someone for no reason and doing them harm, second being taunting someone into attacking you so that you may then destroy them in response, third being being attacked by someone but destroying them in the process of defending yourself. The final level, the most ethical described, is one in which one is attacked without provocation but yet simply disarms the attacker without harming them. This last is Aikido, no?

Or do you all feel that Aikido contains a further ethical level, in which the one attacked should run away from the challenge? I don't believe so. I somehow feel it is simply dishonorable to all parties involved to not rise to the challenge that the other party is asking for. I suspect that ignoring the attack is of a lower ethical level than responding to it in a way that ends the attack without harming the attacker. Perhaps this teaches a lesson and benefits the attacker in a way that simply ignoring or evading the attack can not.

I'm not of course saying that I myself wouldn't run away in certain circumstances, but that my goal in studying Aikido is to get to a level where I no longer have to do that. This applies to both physical attackers and the kind of psychological attackers being spoken of above by other posters, of course.

-Rich
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 11:20 PM   #15
Colin Moynier
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 9
Offline
Nice post Rich, in my situation I thought he was going to attack me and I wasnt very confident in my technique, but I learned a lesson.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 11:50 PM   #16
JasonB
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 28
Offline
Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Jason i believe you have directly contradicted yourself from one post to the next.
I may very well have contradicted myself.

The fact is that we're probably in more agreement than you think since I don't really believe in my own statement.

I threw it out there because it's been bouncing around my head for a while. In fact, the philosophy is based on a computer programming competition a few years back that dealt with the issue of conflict and moral choices. Without going into detail, the best performing program made the righteous moral decision in the first attempt and after that it emulated the decision of the other program it was paired up with in the following tests. It's kind of mathematical proof that society functions better when the golden rule has that second part.

The truth, though, is that we're not computer programs. There is the hope that if we always make the best moral decision that everyone else will do the same. So I ask your forgiveness for presenting a view point that is not my own. At the same time, I will insist that it is a perfectly valid view point and your attack was unwarranted.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2003, 10:22 AM   #17
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
But the computer is missing the physio-chemical responses of emotional response. I am right now enjoying(yes!) the sheer physical response i get in reading something that affects me on the ego/emotional level.

It all comes down to perception- i don't believe either of us intended to be "attacking" the other but it appears we both have felt threatened by the others' statements.This is my personal perception of the situation, after trying to get under the purely subjective emotional response.

And this is, in effect, why i train in aikido- in hope that i can learn to step away from the emotional/ ego-preserving reaction, to slow down my subjective timing so that i may respond in a saner, safer manner, for both, or all parties concerned.

Thank you for training with me.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2004, 06:14 PM   #18
actoman
Dojo: USA Martial Arts Center
Location: West Virginia
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 88
United_States
Offline
Keep your thoughts coming, I have new posers in my head all the time about the ethics of treatment of others in relation to stimulus.

But I am in Personal Training and Customer Service and man, we always deal with asses like described above on a daily basis.

Sensei Andy Orwig, Ist dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2004, 02:12 AM   #19
Chris Birke
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 258
Offline
Thumbs up

Reciprocity (and game theory) is effective only when the agents have a future of interactions with each other.

There is the story of truce developing between the soldiers of trench warfar during world war one. Troops knew that charging across the no mans land would result in casaulties and a counter attack. Troops would fight twice as hard in defense to discourage the enemy from attacking. Eventually they realised that to attack the enemy was to attack oneself. They had a truce. They pretended to fight by shooting into the air, they had warning signals to the enemy for when arty would be called in.

The generals, of course, could not stand for this sort of peacemongering on the front line they intended to push... so they simply began shifting the troops. Once troops on the front line had no idea whether the enemy today was the same one they tried to make peace with yesterday, they were forced to fight.

By taking away the future of interactions, trust became too dangerous.

In this way, superpopulation has begun to destroy the golden rule. We no longer live in small towns, for the most part. We deal with many strangers on a daily basis who we will never see again. Even if they live in the same city, with such massive cities, it's impossible not to have strangers.

Thus, the only incentive not to betray a stranger is that someone you trust might see you and become suspicious. However, if you can get away with it, what is to stop you? In the old days, the golden rule held fast: what goes around comes around. Not so much anymore with people flying from NY to LA in a day. Only a moral basis that throws back to days of smaller communities keeps people in check sometimes.

The internet is even worse, because we have no one watching our actions (at least for the most part we perceive no one to be). What flame I post here under a fake name and information will never come to haunt me. The golden rule entirely broken down. I can treat others awfully and suffer no immidiate consequence. (Consequently, others feel the same, and many forums degenerate into flaming stupid.)

There is a serious flaw, however, in applying game theory to daily interactions, in that the level of complexity in the system is so massivly different that it's hardly safe to say game theory is a rule to live by (and the same for my counterclaim). Social things are much more complex than game theory. (Damned interesting, though.)

Last edited by Chris Birke : 01-04-2004 at 02:16 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2004, 12:38 PM   #20
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Sometimes I appreciate the fact that the agression of strangers towards me is a manifestation of their own suffering. And sometimes they're just assholes.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2004, 07:32 PM   #21
actoman
Dojo: USA Martial Arts Center
Location: West Virginia
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 88
United_States
Offline
Great Point Lyle

Sensei Andy Orwig, Ist dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2004, 07:34 PM   #22
actoman
Dojo: USA Martial Arts Center
Location: West Virginia
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 88
United_States
Offline
My one question is this:At what point should we go against the Aikido principle of calmness and become aggressive and 'assholes' ourselves?

Sensei Andy Orwig, Ist dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2004, 11:53 AM   #23
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Well, I just keep living and training and hope that when I have to make decisions like that I don't do anything too stupid.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2004, 09:20 PM   #24
SeanToner
Location: Florida
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10
Offline
My grandfather told me something a long time ago when I was a teenager that I'm just now starting to figure out. He said: "Don't be nice, be courteous". I think there is a difference between the two. When we are confronted with someone who is condescending, aggressive, impolite or mean, we must show them respect nonetheless. We should still hold out our hand for help, even if they refuse it. As O-sensei said, Aikido is the budo of love.

But sometimes love is tough. Aikido does not mean non-confrontational...it means confrontational in a manner which reveals an imbalance and tries to re-establish harmony between everyone. If someone is mean and rude, don't back down and kowtow. Instead, simply walk up to him and confront him with a smile. There's an old saying about approaching a stranger...if he walks towards you, walk towards him, if he walks away from you, also walk away. In other words, you must be a mirror to everyone else. Except instead of mirroring their anger, egocentricity or illwill, show them peace, selflessness, and goodwill.

It's not easy....I easily get road rage when a reckless driver does something stupid and potentially risks lives on the road. The trick is in the difference between feeling anger, and being angry. If you feel anger, then you let it pass, but being angry is to be controlled by your anger. It is the same with fear I think. When one confronts an enemy who is bent on doing you harm, it is natural to feel fear. Not fear of death or harm necessarily though. Confucious said, "Cowardice is knowing what is right...and not doing it". That I believe is the root of all fear, to not do what is expected of us, whether from our own standards, society's or the eyes of O-kami (God). And I think getting rid of our sense of self is in some ways our greatest fear and obstacle. If we can empathize with all, and realize there is no seperation, it is scary to our sense of self. It just seems obvious to us to avenge injustices (or rudeness) done to us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2004, 04:27 AM   #25
Ian Upstone
Location: Sussex
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 80
Offline
Quote:
Andy Orwig (actoman) wrote:
My one question is this:At what point should we go against the Aikido principle of calmness and become aggressive and 'assholes' ourselves?
Never - if you can help it. I'd suggest being as polite and courteous as you can in any situation. As Sean said, there is a difference between feeling the anger and actually being angry.

If you saw two people talking, one getting angry, raising their voice and stamping around like a child, the other talking without backing down but still politely, you'd come to a quick conclusion about the people involved.

Not only is it (verbal aikido?) a good test of will power, it may make them realise, and then hopefully alter, the way they are behaving. It's difficult to argue with someone that is trying see your point of view.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:37 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate