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Old 01-06-2004, 03:17 PM   #51
AsimHanif
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LOL! Yes that could be baffling. I'm a typical NYker. Show me and I MIGHT believe it. So going from Aikikai to Ki Society was a bit baffling to me also.

I never heard that quote but that is interesting. But when I look at the eyes I am actually looking into the soul. Don't mean to sound to cosmic. Hidy Ochiai would explain how the mind operates like sine waves - up and down. Some people quicker than others. So you strike when you see their mind go asleep or down. It takes some practice but I have gotten pretty good at it. Most people say I'm pretty fast but I laugh on the inside because I just keep distance until I'm ready and attack when they fall asleep. Then when I see that they are thinking about how they got hit, I attack again. I'm actually pretty slow.

But it would seem to me (IMO) that if your opponents sword or eye drew you in that would mean you gave them the power. Why couldn't you draw them in instead?
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Old 01-06-2004, 10:53 PM   #52
Goetz Taubert
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@ Asim Hanif

You (as nage) can draw them in, that means by drawing in you are determining the beginning (maybe at an advanced level also the specific form) of uke's attack. But this won't work, when you look at uke. The process of drawing in will stay incomplete.

To train in this form it's important and sufficient that uke maintains a strong intention to attack. By the drawing in of nage uke's intention evolves into motion and the attack is forced to beginn so sudden that it can't be stopped willingly by uke. The drawing in takes place before moving the body. Foot posture like aihanmi/yakuhanmi on nages side is the result of having drawn in ki and moved the body from a neutral standing position.
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Old 01-07-2004, 12:40 AM   #53
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Goetz;

Just curious - no big deal - but could you let us know a bit of your Aikido background.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-07-2004, 04:16 AM   #54
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Quote:
Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
Larry,

It seems that your experiment is focused to causing the tori / nage's mental breakdown then

I can only imagine the difficulty of executing a particular tehnique where the uke is specially set against it. I think It's a good exercise to force people to re-learn their basic principles.
Hi Maresa,

Actualy the idea of the exercise is not so much to cause Tori's "breakdown" per se (though it does happen quite often, which is a good thing I think) but to help Tori bring his/her technique to a level where the same "extension" and "drawing in" of Uke enables Tori to execute the technique in almost the same way that he/she would during cooperative kata training. The idea is to maintain the "universal love" and all the other Aiki principles under a little bit of pressure, which to me is where the true test of one's understanding shows.

And yes it has been a good exercise to help folks return to the basics, in fact, if the basics applied against resistance are sound, then there is no "forcing" at all.

Asim: You probably already know this, but I've found that a good indicator of the sine wave movements of the mind lies in the opponent's breathing. It also refers to something I learnt while studying Shiatsu, by harmonising your own breathing with that of the other person, you are able to move your mind in harmony with them and operate almost as if "inside their head", where your movements are not perceived by Uke as something "invasive" or foreign, but almost as if a part of Uke's natural movement itself.

In other words, they can't resist your technique because Uke is not able to perceive the exact point where their technique (attack) ends and yours begins. Hence their is no resistance.

Just a few more thoughts.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 01-07-2004 at 04:18 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-07-2004, 04:44 AM   #55
Goetz Taubert
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@ Peter

This is aikido in the tradition of Hikitsuchi M. Sensei (10. Dan). In Europe it's G. Blaize (7. Dan) with different teachers in a number of european countries. After having trained 10 years with more aikijutsu-like style and shinki-rengo style, I changed to Hikitsuchi style (2,5 years now). From all I have seen until now (have mainly seen the stiles mentioned) this stile comes nearest to what I would call the essence of aikido. Don't want to offend anybody, it's just my higly subjective evaluation.
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Old 01-07-2004, 06:47 AM   #56
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Larry,
Quote:
In other words, they can't resist your technique because Uke is not able to perceive the exact point where their technique (attack) ends and yours begins.
As a matter of interest, how do you find atemi fitting into this area. (John, honest I'm not back at atemi bashing, just curious)
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Old 01-07-2004, 10:15 AM   #57
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Wow - this has gotten rather techinical:-)

Geotz 'ole buddy, I may have to disagree with you on this one. Actually just last night I focused on this. And everytime I did not initially (that's the key) engage with the eyes I had trouble. When I did most times than not the technique went pretty smooth.

No offense taken here Geotz - Hikitsuchi Sensei is very well respected.

Larry - yes I have heard of this although I know there are some who can disquise their breathing. It is easier for me to do this once I have made contact with uke but I would like to attain a level where I could do this from a bit of a distance. Actually the way we do kokyudosa in the Ki Society is very similar to this.

Ian - regarding atemi. My Goju ryu teacher used the technique described somewhat by Larry but instead of the breath he used the position of the pupils. He (Michael Robinson Sensei) described this in his original manuscript of the Bubishi. I have actually seen him use atemi on someone and slow their pulse. Without going into detail it has to do with knowing what time of day, season, etc to strike someone based on their indications.
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Old 01-07-2004, 11:09 AM   #58
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Quote:
Asim Hanif (AsimHanif) wrote:
Larry - yes I have heard of this although I know there are some who can disquise their breathing.
This is true, hence the reason why there are a few ways of doing this harmonisation, both from touch and at a distance. Admittedly, the distance version calls for a bit more sensitivity to Uke's "extension" or "intent".
Quote:
Asim Hanif (AsimHanif) wrote:
I have actually seen him use atemi on someone and slow their pulse. Without going into detail it has to do with knowing what time of day, season, etc to strike someone based on their indications.
From my knowledge, this is taught as part of the Dim Mak (Duan Mai) element of the Chin na of Taijiquan and some of the other Chinese styles. The time of day, season etc. has to do with the direction of Chi flow through the body and determines in what way one attacks meridian points that are used in both Shiatsu and Traditional Chinese Medicine. It's a very deep and complex study I understand.

Ian - Atemi and Atemi waza fit perfectly into this as well. The idea here is to enter deeply into the attack (using Sen timing) while keeping metsuke (eye contact). At the very last instant when Tori is about to initiate the attack, atemi or atemi waza can be applied. If done correctly, what you see is Uke starting to attack and then falling in one continuous motion as the atemi/atemi waza is placed at the point where Uke's attacking posture is weakest. Correct maai, timing and metsuke are imperative for this to work in this manner though. Applied properly, resistance is futile .

The reason I differentiate between atemi and atemi waza is because to me, atemi refers to the percussive striking of vital points, when atemi waza refers to the throws or other techniques that result from attacking these same points in a non-percussive manner, effecting kuzushi or other results instead of impact damage alone.

Just my 2 cents.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 01-07-2004 at 11:13 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 01-07-2004, 01:59 PM   #59
AsimHanif
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Larry - is this the same as applying say yonkyo directly at the point of attack?

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you described above seems to be what O'Sensei is doing to Saotome Sensei in that old demo footage where he strikes him somewhere around the knee. I have never seen any other aikidoist do that although I have seen it done by a taigi stylist with similar effect.
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Old 01-07-2004, 02:25 PM   #60
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Hi Asim,

Not exactly sure of the footage you are referring to, but there is a nice vital point near the lower part of the inner knee that one can exploit with similar effect.

Applying yonkyo at the point of attack is another expression of the example I gave, yes. That one takes a bit more coordination and practice than the atemi ones for me to get off though.

This whole talk of atemi brings to question the universal love theory a bit though. There is an atemi we use in Aikido where the blade edge of the hand is used to strike the side of the neck, which can at worst cause a vaso-vagal reaction leading to fainting or even a heart attack if the attacker has a history of heart disease.

So the question is, does one use full force atemi (outside the dojo I mean) if one prescribes to the notion of universal love? Often I hear on this site that to defend oneself from a real life attack, ample use of atemi may be necessary. But most atemi can do severe damage, so how does this and the universal love position equate?

Just wondering.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 01-07-2004 at 02:28 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-07-2004, 03:42 PM   #61
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
So the question is, does one use full force atemi (outside the dojo I mean) if one prescribes to the notion of universal love?
If I'm truly under attack outside of the dojo (or maybe even in it) I don't think I'm going to worry about 'universal love'. At least in the closest situation that I've seen recently, my mind was focused on the aggressors, and my great aunt. If the attack had been realized, love for my aunt may have directed my response, but I'm pretty sure my attackers wouldn't have been thinking 'oh, he really loves us.'

Don't want to get hurt? no problem. Just don't attack someone. Other than that, you place your bet, and take your chances. maybe when I finally reach the highest level, that will change. I'm not too hopefull of getting there though.

RT

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-07-2004, 06:53 PM   #62
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Thanks I was just curious - it puts some of your statements in context.

Cheers
Quote:
Goetz Taubert wrote:
@ Peter

This is aikido in the tradition of Hikitsuchi M. Sensei (10. Dan). In Europe it's G. Blaize (7. Dan) with different teachers in a number of european countries. After having trained 10 years with more aikijutsu-like style and shinki-rengo style, I changed to Hikitsuchi style (2,5 years now). From all I have seen until now (have mainly seen the stiles mentioned) this stile comes nearest to what I would call the essence of aikido. Don't want to offend anybody, it's just my higly subjective evaluation.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-07-2004, 10:23 PM   #63
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Yes Ron I too have a universal love to get home in one piece

I have always wondered was this a chicken/egg question - meaning it's easy to perform with universal love in your heart when you are soooooo much better than everyone else (so to speak). I know that this was expressed by O'Sensei more or less in the later years but when did Tohei Sensei start to emphasize it in this way. From what I have heard (take with grain of salt) Tohei Sensei was the "enforcer" of the dojo back in the day. Was he always emphasizing "universal love" with the Ki concept? I would think this to be a big Tempukai concept???
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Old 01-08-2004, 07:19 AM   #64
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Asim, what a great thread! I have recently read "Invincible warrior" by J.Stevens and was saddened to read Osensei's feelings about what he had taught and how it had been received i.e.:" I've given my life to opening the path of Aikido but when I look back no one is following me " and when a student said " I really want to learn your Aikido " he said, " How unusual! Everyone else wants to do their own Aikido." Osensei had another string to his bow, an insight into the mystical inner world call it what you like, but through that inner experience he had an understanding of something completely out of this world. In the times that I have experienced this world in meditation it has changed me for days as the intellect is completely blown away and in this state things are very different. . As to all embracing universal love when you enter into the inner world it will BECOME all you can feel and not just some intellectual exercise i.e. oh I must try to love this person or group, when you feel love you feel love! And when you see that Light inside you will have found the source of all LOVE just as Osensei did. So perhaps we might see what Osensei actually said, and ask ourselves do we really understand the higher realms?

1, Foster and polish the warrior spirit, While in the world; Illuminate the path according to your light

What light? Have you seen the inner light?

2, If you have not linked yourself to true emptiness, you will never understand The Art Of Peace.

Do you link yourself to true emptiness?

3, If you perceive the true form of heaven and earth, you will be enlightened to your own true form.

Do you perceive your true form?

After asking ourselves these questions what have we now got to say for ourselves in answer to Asim's question? Happy New Year to you all. MASAKATSU AGATSU (and what does that really mean?) malc.

P,S, it is not my intension to upset anyone, but to just expand on this great thread, as because of a serious industrial accident I cannot do Aikido anymore. I do tai chi as my physical outlet and so I have concentrated more on the inner world through Raj Yoga and this gives me another angle on Osensei's teachings. Practice hard my brothers you are so lucky to participate in such a beautiful and graceful art.
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Old 01-08-2004, 08:19 AM   #65
happysod
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Malcom, sorry, but don't quite see how this fit into the thread, it made me re-check previous posts to see I hadn't strayed into an "enlightenment through aikido" one...

Larry,
Quote:
At the very last instant when Tori is about to initiate the attack, atemi or atemi waza can be applied. If done correctly, what you see is Uke starting to attack and then falling in one continuous motion as the atemi/atemi waza is placed at the point where Uke's attacking posture is weakest
So when you were referring to the non-perception of your aikido you were referring to timing? If so, thanks for clearing that up as I was getting confused in how uke wouldn't actually perceive being hit which why I was questioning atemi.

Asim, my vote would be yes, you would have to become able and comfortable with violence before you could choose to eschew it.
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Old 01-08-2004, 11:51 AM   #66
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
Asim, my vote would be yes, you would have to become able and comfortable with violence before you could choose to eschew it.
I would agree...hence the signature

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 01-08-2004, 04:03 PM   #67
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@ Ian

Hope you are not allergic to "enlightenment"-issues. I can't see why the post shouldn't fit. But maybe your feeling is just a reflection on the restricted understanding of aikido in these days, just the issue Malcom mentioned in the beginning of his post. The transcendental aspects of "do" are disturbing, not easyly understandable, not teachable, nearly not communicable, but they surely touch the "universal love" aspect. Reading Malcoms post - in my opinion - makes this quite obvious.

I can tell you only about my personal experience: Only the few moments in training where things just happend - beyond reflection, intention or planning - are the ones that keep me going on. Actually I have short glances in non-physical aspects of aikido, which also keep me going on. To me this "transcendental stuff" is the main aspect to continue, the other things (grading, technical skills) are just nice additions.
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Old 01-08-2004, 11:00 PM   #68
AsimHanif
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Bronson - I would agree that your signature sums up my thought.

I also agree that Malcolms post was right on point. I think I may have mentioned this before how I believe that the body (something physical) forges the mind or spirit. So again just train (properly) and the natural order of things will occur. Natural according to you. So maybe it is not natural for some of us to feel universal love or does the specific training in aikido foster that???

I know recently this is what I have been focusing on. Techniques themselves are not as important to me as the manner in which I approach my training. I have definitely seen a change in the outcome of my techniques. This is where the ego is so strong and the training is so humbling as Goetz alluded to.
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Old 01-09-2004, 03:39 AM   #69
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HI again everyone, sorry Ian but I thought this was a spiritual forum, i'm not sure what you think spiritual means.perhaps you might look at the articles in this forum by Jop Den Das.I would still point back to the 3 questions in my post as Osensei wrote these things down for our education. I could quote you some more if you like, I love to talk about the inner world but realise I must be careful not to over stay my welcome. So I will leave you with just one more. "Cast off limiting thoughts and return to true emptyness. Stand in the midst of the Great Void. This is the SECRET of the way of the warrior". Yes the secret, what is this SECRET? malc

The penetrating brilliance of swords wielded by followers of the way strikes at the evil enemy lurking deep WITHIN their OWN souls and bodies.
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Old 01-09-2004, 06:38 AM   #70
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I felt the enlighted sarcasm expressed does deserve some reply.

My problem with Malcom's post was that the topic had become interesting in that many of the posters were making a direct comparison between how their philosophical take on aikido had a direct impact on how they trained and approached their aikido.

The more generic nature of Malcom's post was less interesting to me and did not seem to fit with the thrust the thread had developed or even with the original question posed.
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Old 01-09-2004, 10:37 AM   #71
L. Camejo
 
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I can see Ian's point.

Personally, I think the reason why no one wanted to (or could) learn Ueshiba M.'s Aikido is because non of them were Ueshiba M. As said multiple times already, one's approach to training and even more so one's approach to spirituality and its place in that training is a totally individual and private matter. I don't think any of Ueshiba M.'s students approached Aikido in exactly the same way he did, and even if they did, it does not guarantee that they would attain the same spiritual insights that he did. Of course, being an "enlightened" individual I'd guess that Ueshiba M. already knew this. The best his disciples could do was forge what he had taught in their own spirits and understanding and give that a new expression -"Stand on his shoulders" as they like to say.

My answer to all of the 3 questions posed by Malcolm above would be - "Who is the judge?". Light, Truth, Emptiness, Fullness, Limitations, Form - all come down to one person - the individual, and what he/she perceives these things to be, with perception itself being something that evolves and becomes clearer as the total human self evolves. What I perceive about something today I may not perceive tomorrow.

To quote Goetz "The transcendental aspects of "do" are disturbing, not easyly understandable, not teachable, nearly not communicable," - so how does one determine an objective measure from which to judge or ask such a question? From my experience, we can't and that is a good thing because in defining and categorising something in order to teach it we necessarily limit it at some level.

Applying the "do" and the philosophy to one's technical approach can have some truly brilliant effects and bring great results in the evolution of the person. But how that is done by each person is their own business in my book, and cannot be compared to another as there may be no common ground from which to do that.

Hence my favourite quote in the Art of Peace being simply - "Just head for the Light and Heat."

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 01-09-2004, 11:17 AM   #72
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Fair enough but why do I get the feeling that you are assuming that you understand Ueshiba's true intent. To be blunt it seems that only the California born truely understand.
Quote:
malcolm anderson (malc anderson) wrote:
Asim, what a great thread! I have recently read "Invincible warrior・by J.Stevens and was saddened to read Osensei's feelings about what he had taught and how it had been received i.e.:・I've given my life to opening the path of Aikido but when I look back no one is following me ・and when a student said ・I really want to learn your Aikido ・he said, ・How unusual! Everyone else wants to do their own Aikido.・ Osensei had another string to his bow, an insight into the mystical inner world call it what you like, but through that inner experience he had an understanding of something completely out of this world. In the times that I have experienced this world in meditation it has changed me for days as the intellect is completely blown away and in this state things are very different. . As to all embracing universal love when you enter into the inner world it will BECOME all you can feel and not just some intellectual exercise i.e. oh I must try to love this person or group, when you feel love you feel love! And when you see that Light inside you will have found the source of all LOVE just as Osensei did. So perhaps we might see what Osensei actually said, and ask ourselves do we really understand the higher realms?

1, Foster and polish the warrior spirit, While in the world; Illuminate the path according to your light

What light? Have you seen the inner light?

2, If you have not linked yourself to true emptiness, you will never understand The Art Of Peace.

Do you link yourself to true emptiness?

3, If you perceive the true form of heaven and earth, you will be enlightened to your own true form.

Do you perceive your true form?

After asking ourselves these questions what have we now got to say for ourselves in answer to Asim's question? Happy New Year to you all. MASAKATSU AGATSU (and what does that really mean?) malc.

P,S, it is not my intension to upset anyone, but to just expand on this great thread, as because of a serious industrial accident I cannot do Aikido anymore. I do tai chi as my physical outlet and so I have concentrated more on the inner world through Raj Yoga and this gives me another angle on Osensei's teachings. Practice hard my brothers you are so lucky to participate in such a beautiful and graceful art.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-09-2004, 11:43 AM   #73
indomaresa
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O'sensei is born in California?

0_o

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 01-09-2004, 12:09 PM   #74
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Quote:
Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
O'sensei...
Apparently he's an Irish Californian too

L.C.

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Old 01-09-2004, 01:03 PM   #75
L. Camejo
 
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Anyway, to get back on target before we go off on a tangent - I was really intrigued by Ron's post earlier.
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
If I'm truly under attack outside of the dojo (or maybe even in it) I don't think I'm going to worry about 'universal love'. At least in the closest situation that I've seen recently, my mind was focused on the aggressors, and my great aunt. If the attack had been realized, love for my aunt may have directed my response, but I'm pretty sure my attackers wouldn't have been thinking 'oh, he really loves us.'
I remember being robbed at gunpoint at a client of mine once and there was a similar thought pattern that went through my mind - take em out first, then we can practice some harmony . Loving, protective Aikido technique was very far from my mind at that point.

This was my first instinct to being attacked, however, this gave way to a feeling of being sorry for my attackers as the seconds passed, and by the time the episode had ended I was actually trying to keep the bandits (2 guys, late teens, early 20's) calm so that they would not do anything stupid, like shoot someone (as some people were frantic and crying), as they were already a bit nervous and on edge.

However, unlike Ron, I did not have a loved one other than myself at stake, and that can change one's take on the event drastically.

However, I did find myself trying to "extend energy" of calm and harmony to the guys, possibly because I also did not want to find out what may have happened to either (or both) of us, had things not gone the way they did.

So the universal love thing is extremely hard to apply in certain situations, which brings me to the conclusion that the only way it can be truly applied at these levels is by having a total feeling of emptiness and not be controlled (possessed) by the things around you, even loved ones who may be in danger. This may enable one to see clearly the "right technique" to apply in the situation. Which brings back my point about martial ability to back up the moral position. If one is a Lion among Sheep, then it is very easy to maintain harmony and universal love in the challenges that life may offer. So is this what Ueshiba M. was alluding to? Seek into Universal love, but become technically proficient as well and exude that aura, so that peace may be maintained? After all, it's common sense to attack a perceived weak enemy if one plans to succeed.

Then again, these days being a Lion among sheep may mean becoming a nuclear superpower

What do you think?

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 01-09-2004 at 01:06 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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