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Old 12-19-2003, 07:53 PM   #1
josh rhodes
Dojo: Four Seasons Martial Arts
Location: Cleburne, Texas
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bowing in my dojo

Hi,
Out at my dojo at the beginning of it we do the bowing to O-Sensei but two of our group(we have 8 attending the night I went)didn't do the seiza bowing. I was just wondering if that is something common or something or other, just want some thoughts.

01101000011010010010000001101001001000000110000101101101001000000110101001101111 01110011011010000010111000100000
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Old 12-19-2003, 11:20 PM   #2
Michael Young
 
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In response, no it is not typical, but at the same time it is not unheard of. Some people have certain religious and/or conscientious objections to bowing to the Shomen/Kamiza/Picture, etc. I would recommend respectfully asking them why they don't bow, if you are truly just curious. As far as the etiquette goes; it is up to your instructor how he wishes to handle such things. Some dojo may be very adamant that you must bow or you can't practice...although most aren't that hard-line and leave room for the personal beliefs of their students, after explaining the reason and tradition behind the bowing (my preferred approach), but again that is up to the instructor. True etiquette is in the heart.

Just a word of caution, don't be suprised (or alarmed) if your simple question starts a very heated thread. There is a similar active thread on this forum that really got inflamed to the point of complete disrespect and people hurling childish insults(interesting considering the original post was a question about etiquette and respect)

Take care and good luck with your training,

Mike
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Old 12-20-2003, 12:49 AM   #3
Colin Moynier
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Way to keep ahead of the game Michael, that was a bad thread.
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Old 12-20-2003, 01:23 AM   #4
Michael Young
 
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My mistake, it looks like the that thread is (thankfully) no longer active, I guess the administrator removed it. Sorry, didn't mean to get off topic, just wanted to make the corrections so no one goes looking for it.

-Mike
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Old 12-20-2003, 01:26 PM   #5
Kevin Wilbanks
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That's funny. I was just thinking the opposite. There was little if any "childish insults" going on in the threads - at least not overtly, and not by those widely considered to be the bad guys. There is a big difference between a legitimate - though perhaps unpleasant - dispute, and pointlessly flaming or calling names. Either way, I can't agree with censoring the evidence from public view. The only case where I've seen need for this on an internet board is when the sheer volume of uninteresting trolling/flaming starts to drown out the content, which was certainly not the case here, as the option to avoid the threads was easy to take. The decision to delete the threads without notice or justification reflects poorly on the moderatorship of the site, and to some extent on Aikido itself... a triumph of politics and PR over the truth. I guess the message is that instead of working through messy difficulties, it is better to sweep them under the rug. I think my current hiatus from Aikido practice may have to extend to talking about it here as well. A climate of censorship doesn't make for a decent place to hang out.
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Old 12-20-2003, 05:38 PM   #6
Peter Goldsbury
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I regularly visit three forums and I moderate one of these (E-Budo), and I must confess that I have never yet encountered a thread in this forum that was so bad that it made me want to give up posting altogether.

If I get exasperated with AikiWeb, it is not because of the content, but because it is now less easy than it was to post Japanese, and my software is all in Japanese. (But I espress my exasperation to Jun Aikyama via PM, not usually in public.)

Like Mr Wilbanks, I think that censorship is quite out of place in a discussion forum and the forum rules should be as minimalist as possible. The martial arts are influenced too much by a cult of secrecy: a 'need to know' ethos and this sometimes becomes a cover for actual abuse.

A discussion forum is not a dojo, though we would like to believe that good habits gained from training in the dojo will influence behaviour in the forum. Thus, a forum is the one place where the weight of experience should not really count\or if it counts at all, it should appear in the quality of the opinions expressed and arguments deployed, not merely from statements such as, "I have trained for X years... " (and am therefore owed respect etc etc).

If this is too much for some people, it is a pity. But it should be an occasion for some individual self-relection, for for censoring the forum.

Best wishes to all for Christmas and the New Year.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 12-20-2003, 07:41 PM   #7
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Censorship

Having participated in that other thread, I am amazed, and quit disappointed that it was deleted. Of course, without knowing Jun's reasoning, we can only speculate if the end result is censorship, or fair play. I agree with both Mr. Goldsbury & Mr. Fairbanks. I did not see that anyone was overtly rude, or even moderately hostile. I happened to be the target of some sentiments that I felt were off the mark, and as a result of someone posting comments about me in a public forum based on something I wrote to them via private e-mail, requested that they remove their comments. I don't like being lectured in condescending tones by persons who I have not given that type of permission. It is tantamount to walking past the front door of a dojo and someone coming out and telling you how unconscious you were to not come in and bow to their kamiza...

In any case, I would certainly like to know Jun's thinking. Quite honestly, we should as a group demand it. I am one for moving my posting habits, and more importatnly my borwsing habits away from this site over to one of the other two sites, and to continue to refrain from posting here until I can be assured that arbitrary censorship without any sign of sense of responsibility to the group as a whole on the part of the moderator(s) is not going to be the norm.

WHO'S WITH ME?

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 12-20-2003, 07:50 PM   #8
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Deleted thread part 1

Deleted thread part 1

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:D...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 12-20-2003, 10:24 PM   #9
Chuck Clark
 
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Concerning the thread that was deleted... I really didn't see anything that rude or disrespectful contained in that thread. As some have stated, this is not a dojo and the communication style is not what some people are used to.

I have seen much worse and think Jun has taken a couple of threads off and revoked a few people's ability to take part for good cause.

There must be certain levels of respect maintained but I agree with Peter that it should be monitored with the lightest touch possible.

Safe and Joyful Holiday Season to All,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 12-21-2003, 12:32 AM   #10
Michael Young
 
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Mr. Rhodes, I apologize for being the one responsible for getting this thread off subject with my first post. I guess I should have just stuck to the topic. Really, I was hoping to kind of keep it on track and pertinent to the question you asked. I learn something new everyday, sometimes what not to do.

Oh well, since it has started...for those who don't think the post was all that rude or no insults were hurled, please read toward the bottom of the post carefully (also note the link you provide is not the entire thread, the were more posts) word likes "fascist" directed at other members, as well as personal jabs and cursing were starting to get hurled around. Personally I applaud Jun for taking the thread off...its his site and he is the moderator, so he is moderating...As some have rightfully pointed out, its not a dojo, its an internet forum, one run by a private individual. But, of course someone else used the dojo as an analogy...so I will too: If you don't like it, nobody is stopping you from leaving and going elsewhere, just like nobody is forcing me to post my opinions, or you to read them or accept them...but I will treat everyone here with respect.

Respectfully,

Mike
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Old 12-21-2003, 04:41 PM   #11
Hanna B
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The act of searching the deleted thread out by Google and post it here, is in my mind to show little respect for the person/s maintaining and moderating the board. On the board where I co-moderate, measures would be taken against the person who did so.

It is like practising a person's class: if you do not like it you do not have to come back, but during class you do not do things the person leading the class clearly shows you he does not want to see.
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Old 12-21-2003, 08:01 PM   #12
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Censorship

Quote:
Shaun Ravens (Misogi-no-Gyo) wrote:
I happened to be the target of some sentiments that I felt were off the mark, and as a result of someone posting comments about me in a public forum based on something I wrote to them via private e-mail, requested that they remove their comments. I don't like being lectured in condescending tones by persons who I have not given that type of permission.
If you expressly requested censorship of material that you didn't like on the thread, you have no business calling for mutiny because the thread was censored, or indulging in the kind of drama you posted. Perhaps your request was the cause of the threads' removal. In any case, you are not a political constituent of this privately published board, and nothing like Censorship with a capital 'C' has occurred. I doubt anyone is "WITH YOU".

******

On a more general note, it seems fairly likely to me that the threads were censored because a highly ranked and publicly visible Aikidoist was making a fool of himself, and the situation was worsening. I found it of particular interest because some of what was said seemed illustrative of a kind of contemptuously judgemental wolf dressed in beatific sheeps clothing attitude that is not uncommon in the Aikido world.

That's just my interpretation though, and may have little to do with the real motivations... exactly the kind of thing that proliferates when secrets are kept. In general, I find that which people are most reluctant to talk about and most eager to hide to be most interesting. I did not mean to cast my objection as some sort of grand moral stand or anything. It's just that if this becomes a place where conversations get banned just when I find them interesting, it will be too dull to frequent.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 12-21-2003 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 12-22-2003, 01:16 AM   #13
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Re: Censorship

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
If you expressly requested censorship of material that you didn't like on the thread, you have no business calling for mutiny because the thread was censored, or indulging in the kind of drama you posted. Perhaps your request was the cause of the threads' removal. In any case, you are not a political constituent of this privately published board, and nothing like Censorship with a capital 'C' has occurred. I doubt anyone is "WITH YOU".
Mr. Fairbanks,

Just as a point of order, I would like to make a minor correction to my previous post. That is, that I had asked Furuya Sensei to consider (at his option) to go back and delete his own post - and that is all. As for your (continuing) doubts, they moved the thread along, as usual.

As for the public dissention that I was seeking, having discovered the thread in response to the deletion in the Feedback on Aikiweb forum, I am much inclined to remove my own post, should that ever become possible. The only thing I was polling for was to see if others would be interested in pressing for an answer as to why the thread was pulled. Jun addressed this in the other forum, but not really directly stating his own reasons for making such a decision.

As for posting a link to part of the initial thread, well I am guilty as charged. At least it assists in letting others make up their own mind before posting knee-jerk responses to the entirety of the issue. After all, isn't that what the forums are supposed to be about in the first place. I am open to being wrong in either case.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 12-22-2003, 09:00 AM   #14
Chuck Clark
 
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Quote:
C.E. Clark (Chuck Clark) wrote:
Concerning the thread that was deleted... I really didn't see anything that rude or disrespectful contained in that thread. As some have stated, this is not a dojo and the communication style is not what some people are used to.
I realize from these messages that I obviously didn't see the last messages that caused the most upset.

I do know one thing though, I know Jun Akiyama well enough that I trust his judgement about this sort of thing. One thing about the internet... we all demonstrate our "human qualities" for all to see. I love it!

Safe and Joyful Holiday Season for All,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 12-22-2003, 10:34 AM   #15
Alfonso
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Dear sirs,

I believe Jun's post addresses the issue quite clearly

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...9864#post59864
Quote:
To clarify here, as people have taken this sort of thing a bit differently than I intended in the past... I am speaking more about the manner and the tone rather than the content. Contrary views are welcome, of course; that's why these Forums exist. However, I believe there are many, many more ways to get a point across, to carry on a discussion, and to change other people's minds than to resort to using harsh, personal, and/or hostile rhetoric.
This is a moderated forum; these are the ground rules.

I'm glad that the discussion wasn't cut out due to the content. There's an important underyling issue here which is relevant since Aikido has become a global practice.

I really doubt anyone can progress in any endeavor without risking making a fool of oneself, so I don't think that was an issue.

I hope that within the constraints of this moderated forum, the issue can be brought up again.

In retrospect that thread had some really serious "tenchi" going..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-22-2003, 11:06 AM   #16
Erik
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I've read that thread a half dozen times and the most interesting thing about it is that Don Modesto's side thread, which went into solid detail on Zen in the MA, had one response.

To quote Winston Churchill,

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
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Old 12-22-2003, 11:34 AM   #17
Misogi-no-Gyo
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...see next post

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 12-22-2003, 11:35 AM   #18
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola (Alfonso) wrote:
Dear sirs,

I believe Jun's post addresses the issue quite clearly

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...9864#post59864



This is a moderated forum; these are the ground rules.

I'm glad that the discussion wasn't cut out due to the content. There's an important underyling issue here which is relevant since Aikido has become a global practice.
I also read Jun's post. While it did shed some light on his desire for members to interact with civil manner and tone, it fell far short of expressing even a hint of where he thought the thread went off that mark to the point that it needed to be removed from the system in its entirety. It is not as though he had advised or warned anyone that there was any danger as such. As a matter of fact, given the only slightly heated words being expressed, I would have been surprised to see even a warning. Oddly, it seemed to me that the most complicit party in anything rude, judgmental or unnecessarily condescending was from the party that was telling others how bad they were for being rude, judgmental and unnecessarily condescending.

I, for one, am over the matter with regards to needed any further explanation from Jun as to why he deleted the thread. It is his board, and he does make the rules. I support this attitude from the person who made the board possible. However, I think maybe some of us can agree that Jun should have at least signaled a change to a yellow light before giving out tickets for running a red one. What say you Mr. Fairbanks?

I am sure that should Jun choose to shed any further light on the subject, we all would be better off for the knowledge.

I would like to take a moment to say to all, "Have a Merry, Happy & Safe holiday!"

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 12-22-2003 at 11:40 AM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 12-22-2003, 12:28 PM   #19
Alfonso
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just to comment, I don't know any of you in person (I've met Erik, if that counts, and have beein in the same mat with Jun, not that he'd know), so I'm not saying these things out of a sense of affiliation or anything like that.. just opinon from a long time internet user..

I seem to recall that the posts were flying in thick and furious, and I'm not sure that they all stayed in. At some point I remember reading a couple of posts that were pretty severe and harsh , though perhaps the author decided it wasn't worth leaving in what might have been written in anger. Like Mr. Clark said , this is humanity at work.. and i too love it. FWIW Shaun I don't think that your exchange is what closed the thread.

Erik, i also would have liked to see the Zen in the Martial Arts discussion pan out. I don't think the conclusion is anywhere near as cut and dried as you make it sound..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-22-2003, 12:45 PM   #20
Kevin Wilbanks
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SR,

First of all, although I look good in green tights and a pointy hat, the name is Wilbanks, not Fairbanks.

I saw nothing shocking or line-crossing in the threads. I did find the tone of condescension and belittling of others who deviated from a certain style of expression as somehow not real Aikidoists or beneath Aikido a bit annoying. This sentiment, and a squeamishness about vigorous word play in general, seems to be the norm here.

As you say, there are not enough specifics to know for sure, but I get the idea that what is being decried, or even banned, as improper 'tone' here is basically what I consider just normal, spirited communication style for a discussion or a debate. From my background in Philosophy and liberal arts schooling, and what I've seen everywhere from journalistic to academic print, from small classrooms to videos of formal debates at Oxford, I don't think my point of view is idiosyncratic. The history of western culture has been rife with kind of "tone" militated against here for millenia - and this is in fact what makes it interesting. Ironically, the kind of syrupy, obsequious tone that seems to be required here - in the name of being open and harmonious - looks like a very narrow and intolerant standard by comparison.

I see it as part of a constellation of recent trends. Communication of all types is becoming more bland, more fawning, and more devoid of real content. Instead of real political debates we've got polite sound-byte exchanges, and when the harsher, more devisive words are spoken, it's only privately amongst those who agree. We're constantly bombarded by freakishly 'positive' commercial messages and sales pitches. Many now feel entitled to a risk-free life, made possible via massive insurance coverage and creative litigation... now it is extending to what "tones" we're exposed to... I think it's absurd. What I wonder about is whether all these people are really so witheringly fragile, or it is just a facade, with something dangerous seething underneath. Is the norm protective or repressive?
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Old 12-22-2003, 01:12 PM   #21
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Blush!

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
SR,

First of all, although I look good in green tights and a pointy hat, the name is Wilbanks, not Fairbanks.
...duly noted.
Quote:
I saw nothing shocking or line-crossing in the threads. I did find the tone of condescension and belittling of others who deviated from a certain style of expression as somehow not real Aikidoists or beneath Aikido a bit annoying. This sentiment, and a squeamishness about vigorous word play in general, seems to be the norm here.

As you say, there are not enough specifics to know for sure, but I get the idea that what is being decried, or even banned, as improper 'tone' here is basically what I consider just normal, spirited communication style for a discussion or a debate. From my background in Philosophy and liberal arts schooling, and what I've seen everywhere from journalistic to academic print, from small classrooms to videos of formal debates at Oxford, I don't think my point of view is idiosyncratic. The history of western culture has been rife with kind of "tone" militated against here for millenia - and this is in fact what makes it interesting. Ironically, the kind of syrupy, obsequious tone that seems to be required here - in the name of being open and harmonious - looks like a very narrow and intolerant standard by comparison.

I see it as part of a constellation of recent trends. Communication of all types is becoming more bland, more fawning, and more devoid of real content. Instead of real political debates we've got polite sound-byte exchanges, and when the harsher, more devisive words are spoken, it's only privately amongst those who agree. We're constantly bombarded by freakishly 'positive' commercial messages and sales pitches. Many now feel entitled to a risk-free life, made possible via massive insurance coverage and creative litigation... now it is extending to what "tones" we're exposed to... I think it's absurd. What I wonder about is whether all these people are really so witheringly fragile, or it is just a facade, with something dangerous seething underneath.
Here, Here!
Quote:
Is the norm protective or repressive?
I have been asking the same question for a long time now. Afraid my answer may get the thread deleted, so I will leave it to those who know me better to read between the lines.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 12-22-2003, 02:21 PM   #22
Erik
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Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola (Alfonso) wrote:
Erik, i also would have liked to see the Zen in the Martial Arts discussion pan out. I don't think the conclusion is anywhere near as cut and dried as you make it sound..
For the record, I don't have an opinion on the topic of Zen. My knowledge of Zen is minimal and that is when I think I know something. If we were talking about ki, and that nonsense, I would be glad to share an opinion.
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Old 12-22-2003, 02:29 PM   #23
Hanna B
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Being a cop is a dirty job, and your actions will always be questioned. Always.

Keep it up Jun. I do not have so terribly strong feelings about the deleted thread, neither for nor against, but I support you for keeping this site. I once started discussing my actions as a moderator - it was a very bad decision. I will not do it again. I'd like to quote one of the moderators at E-budo, Michael Stinson:
Quote:
Just like everyone else I get irritated and make an !!! of myself from time to time.
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...threadid=17852

I do not care if Jun's decision was right or wrong, but if we keep discussing the referee's decisions this soccer game will simply not be possible.
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Old 12-22-2003, 04:08 PM   #24
Don_Modesto
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Re: Censorship

Quote:
Shaun Ravens (Misogi-no-Gyo) wrote:
Having participated in that other thread, I am amazed, and quit disappointed that it was deleted....WHO'S WITH ME?
I was disappointed at its disappearance, too but I think Ms. Björk makes a good point.


Last edited by Don_Modesto : 12-22-2003 at 04:20 PM.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 12-23-2003, 07:50 PM   #25
Don_Modesto
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Summation

As one of the naughty in last week's excitement over the other Kamiza thread, I have posted a comment here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...0329#post60329

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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