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Old 12-15-2003, 08:14 AM   #26
ian
 
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I just read the thread I presume Kelly was referring to. I must admit I was suprised by the animosity and lack of constructive dialogue. Maybe it would be better if we only offered an opinion when it had been thought through and we felt it would benefit understanding? (and that is a note to myself also!)

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 12-15-2003, 08:16 AM   #27
SeiserL
 
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If a few trolls can stop someone from enjoying all the sharing and insight offered here, they have my deepest compassion.

To all those who stay and participate, my deepest compliments and appreciation.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-15-2003, 08:25 AM   #28
aikidoc
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Eric:

It was not you who threatened me. It was not a threat in a physical sense but a threat of doing certain actions. It was also an element of calling me a fraud. This was on an atemi thread. As before, I don't mind blunt spirited discussion. However, I do mind personal attacks and threats of any kind. They are inappropriate and uncalled for. We all have our agendas and spirited discussions are welcomed when they stay on the issue and are argued and discussed in a civil manner.
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Old 12-15-2003, 08:33 AM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
I have found this forum an exceptional resource and am thankful even for the more hurtful comments (Ron);-). Long live freedom (and ease) of speech on aikiweb.

Ian
Hi Ian,

I'm not sure if you are refering to this Ron, but if you are, please be more specific (give me some examples), and I'll try to do better.

Thanks,

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-15-2003, 10:41 AM   #30
Alfonso
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Smile

once upon a time people thought rude behaviour on the net could be controlled by consensus, (we'll not allow the TROLLS to control our destiny!) .. you know what happened? Spam.. oh what happened to netiquette..

reading these forums has provided me with hours of entertainment, and sometimes interesting information, insights. Sometimes the disturbing discussions that go on have forced me to face uncomfortable areas of my beliefs, and have precipitated change, growth even.

I think I'll still keep on reading the different fora, and hope to find some where discussion by people I'm interested in listening to post.. and hope to find some where beginners are welcome to do so as well.

I don't troll discussion groups, but it's a personal decision of mine.

Look, I don't know , but I read the thread in question and I think the underlying issue is a valid one to raise; I don't think trolling had anything to do with this, and strong language is not trolling at all.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:38 AM   #31
Alfonso
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.. posting under the disguise of anonymity to behave in a way you'd not dare to do if you were exposed is so much worse...

check it out, it's going on right now at AJ..

(these places are an excellent wake up call.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-15-2003, 12:02 PM   #32
fvhale
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For those who miss the wonderful insights,

stories and "Voice of Experience" of Sensei Furuya, they may be available to you at his dojo website in his "Daily Message."
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Old 12-15-2003, 12:36 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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I'm kind of at a loss for this whole thing. On the one hand, I like Furuya Sensei's posts in voices of experience, and I hope he keeps posting. On the other hand, I see the points some posters (Don Modesto, Fred Little) have made.

I disagree with Pasha's characterization of Furuya Sensei's post in the thread in question...but I like to read Pasha's posts, so I wouldn't want him to quit posting either. And even if I didn't agree with him, I wouldn't pick a fight with him cause he'd beat me up Maybe we all need slightly thicker skins (me too).

I'd hate to see anyone leave because of the topics being discussed, or to have the topics thought of as 'taboo'. And I don't think anyone was trolling. This forum has actually been enjoyable compared to some others of late. I didn't even notice the fuss until some of the ancillary threads got opened.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-15-2003, 01:19 PM   #34
akiy
 
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Hi folks,

First off, I want to thank everyone who has voiced their opinions in this thread.

I've been involved in online discussions and forums since the late 1980's in one form or another. Most recently, my involvement in places such as the Aikido-L mailing list, Aikido Journal, and these very own AikiWeb Forums has been going on for some number of years. For me, these online interactions have been priceless in one way or another for my personal growth in aikido.

Personally, I do not consider any of these forums to be any sort of "dojo," nor would I want them to be such. Unless you personally feel like doing so, there's no need to call anyone "sensei," unquestioningly accept what someone else is saying/writing, nor adhere to any such artificial devices such as dan rankings or such. There is no such structure here.

However, I've heard it said that budo starts and ends with respect. Some people treat that as the "bow" that they do coming and going intoq the dojo, but, to me at least, respect goes far and beyond any physical trappings that may belong to a single country, a single art, or a single dojo. Rather, it's something that crosses all of these boundaries and is the connection that we share as fellow human beings.

The very first "rule" of these AikiWeb Forums speaks most loudly and clearly: "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect."

Once again:

"Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect."

I've been fortunate to meet many of the people with whom I have interacted in these sorts of Internet discussion forums. I consider many of them to be my friends and I believe the same feeling is returned by at least some of them. As such, I try very hard to keep my "online" interactions to carry the same tone that they would "in real life." In fact, I don't really see much distinction personally between what I do on these forums and in person; they're both very much a part of my own "real life," as it were.

I truly don't understand those who seem to come here to primarily exercise their ability to take on an acerbic tone, brandish sour words of division, and target specific people regardless of the subject matter. Quite frankly, I don't appreciate my website which I have personally spent hundreds if not thousands of hours to build being used in such a manner.

To clarify here, as people have taken this sort of thing a bit differently than I intended in the past... I am speaking more about the manner and the tone rather than the content. Contrary views are welcome, of course; that's why these Forums exist. However, I believe there are many, many more ways to get a point across, to carry on a discussion, and to change other people's minds than to resort to using harsh, personal, and/or hostile rhetoric.

I apologize to people who have decided to join this community and found it lacking in one way or another. However, I do not apologize to those who come with intent to launch personal attacks, raise havoc and chaos, or to just feed off of other people's attentions through their behavior.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. If you are incapable of interacting with people here on the AikiWeb Forums with respect, please go find another venue for your thoughts. If you persist in a manner that belies this simple request for respect, please do not be surprised if your account gets summarily disabled. I have, as much as it pains me to do so, done so in the past and I will reserve the right to do so presently and in the future.

If you have any questions or thoughts regarding any of the above, please don't hesitate to send me e-mail or contact me in any way.

I truly hate taking on this sort of lecturing tone, especially in this time of the year when we should all be celebrating each other's presence in our lives. I hope everyone here has a good end of the year and that next year brings happiness (and good training!) to all.

Best regards,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
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Old 12-15-2003, 01:28 PM   #35
shihonage
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I think I found the thread in question (are there others?).
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Old 12-15-2003, 01:40 PM   #36
Pasha
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Ron,

I wouldn't. I am sure we would go for a beer and laugh it out.

What I am genuinely surprised about is the inability of some people discuss ideas rather than personalities. Mr. Furuya wanted to get a soapdbox in a public forum, I offered a contrary opinion (perhaps in a bit forceful manner, I admit), he started throwing fits and complain about being unappreciated. Well, too bad. One day he has to realise that discussions on a public forum are not entirely about him. If he feels the need to preach to willing audience, I am sure he can do it on his private site. If he chose to come to a public forum and offer an opinion there, he has to be ready for the opinion to be disected, argued about, and hotly debated. This is how the real knowledge, unlike storytelling, gets tested and evaluated.

In 12 years of physics research I participated and witnessed debates compared to which this little row ( by both scale and importance) seem like a hurricane in a tea cup. I suggest the we all take a deep breath and get back to debating/discussions/good-spirited headbutting. I miss Bartman !
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Old 12-15-2003, 02:14 PM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
I wouldn't. I am sure we would go for a beer and laugh it out.
I know, but I couldn't resist. I still take some of these discussions too personally, so it doesn't surprise me all that much when someone else does (and I don't mean you here).

I think the best way to sum up my overall perception is this:
Quote:
In Zen, often such dialogues take place. It is always easy to get offended if we hold too much pride within ourselves or too rigid in our thinking, usually we are just challenging each other's practice or level of training. Someone once said that asking a Zen master a question is like jumping on a sleeping tiger's back. Easy to get on, but hard to escape after!
Ron (no offense to any of the participants, in tone, or otherwise)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-15-2003, 04:35 PM   #38
aikidoc
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Jun:

Excellent commentary. Hopefully, we can all respect each other and still have spirited discussions.
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Old 12-15-2003, 04:49 PM   #39
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
"Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect."
I certainly agree with this. However, I think that the reality of the situation is that if you participate in an internet discussion you have to be prepared to take some lumps. That may not be the way that it ought to be, but IMO that's the way that it is.

Unfortunately, many senior folks are not used to having their opinions and statements questioned in this (or perhaps any) manner. Other senior people that I know in this kind of situation either worked through to a point where they develop a thicker skin or (similarly) withdrew.

For me, I think that there is a value in the statements of senior people being questioned vigorously, maybe even (for some people) rudely, since it is something that can only rarely occur in the dojo. Certainly, it helps keep you sharp .

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-23-2003, 06:51 PM   #40
Don_Modesto
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Summation

As one of the naughty in last week's excitement over the other Kamiza thread, I have posted a comment here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...0329#post60329

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 12-23-2003, 08:21 PM   #41
Hanna B
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My comment here has more to do with Internet fora in general, than the recent debacle.
Quote:
Frank Hale (fvhale) wrote:
This is a forum. That word is Latin, from "foris," meaning outside, beyond the door (of the dojo, perhaps), in the open air. This is a place of rhetoric, of dialogue, of conversation and even humor, sometimes sarcasm and criticism (but please play nice).

(snip)

Why do so few top academics participate in internet fora? Because in a real sense, they are "fora" in the classical sense of the word. They are "outisde." They are outside all the protocols and decora of our professions, of our status. If you are the President, Prime Minister, a bishop, a monk, or a seventh-grader, we all come here pretty much stripped of our dignity of office and status. This place is really "outside," and this can be a shock to folks expecting deferential treatment and "respect" that they receive in other places, such as dojo's or universities or government offices.
Well, yes and no.

Quite a few professional full-contact fighters (kickboxers and such) who retire from the ring start teaching expensive fighting seminars, where as a kind of special treat there is one occasion where all participants regardless of level are welcome to do a friendly sparr with the ex-champ. But after a while, most of these people remove the "I sparr with everyone at my seminars" from their curriculum.

It sounds ridiculous, does it not? This ex-champ certainly should be able to handle whoever turns up at the seminar, should he not? The thing is, the ex-champ and the student at the seminar do not play by the same rules in this sparr. It is supposed to be a friendly sparring (please play nice), but every now and then some people will forget this and try everything to win over the old champ. But the champ can not leave the rules of a friendly sparr! If he did, and he severely hurt and/or injured the person trying to get him with all his might... imagine what this would do to his reputation.

The "nobodies" and the well-known people with titles, position or status in the real world do not play by the same rules here on Aikiweb, or an other web fora. A lost face is much worse for those who are "someone" than for Ms Nobody. When she returns to the board after licking her wounds, nobody will remember who she is and she can start out fresh, without the memories of the old conflict adding a certain colour tone to everyting she writes.

Those of us who have an "Internet identity" and use the same nick on several sites also have more face to defend than the true Ms Nobody. But at least we have had some time to learn some basic stuff about internet communication. This includes things like when people write things directed to you that you find stupid or outright rude, it is better not to respond or it will be like trying to put out fire with gasoline.

Last edited by Hanna B : 12-23-2003 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 04-21-2004, 09:08 PM   #42
PeaceHeather
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Re: This Forum Just Lost Credability it had Left.

I'm new to the AikiWeb culture, but there is another forum where I post that is surprisingly light on trolls (except around the time of American schools' Spring Break, imagine that)... and the reason it is so light on trolls is because we, the community as a body, have chosen a very simple way to handle them.

In essence, we laugh them off the board.

If you're posting what is in all honesty a simple question, ignorant perhaps but honest, you will be welcome in the forum of which I speak. If, however, it is obvious that you are merely "trolling" for a reaction from us, what you will get are corrections on your grammar, corrections on your spelling, invitations to clarify your point of view, surrealist responses to your equally surreal troll-posts, and so forth.

The moderators will ban trolls if they persist in being a problem, but since most of the people who are trolling are doing it for recreation -- they WANT to rile up the board -- most of them are instead so bewildered by our response that they leave, because we simply won't give them the stress and angst that they're after. Which means that most of the time, the moderators don't even have to deal with the trolls, because we "regular" posters get to them first.

Heh.

Now, AikiWeb is considerably larger than the forum I'm talking about (it's for fans of a sci-fi tv show, in case you're curious), so I don't know if that technique could be consistently applied here. What do folks think?

Peace,
Heather
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Old 04-22-2004, 09:28 AM   #43
SeiserL
 
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Re: This Forum Just Lost Credability it had Left.

So let me get this straight, the entire forum, all of us, lose our credibility because you personally cannot ignore a few trolls? Is that a statement of our credibility, or of your choices? Sorry, this is the type of stuff that gets my soapbox out of storage. Don't take my comments personally, they are totally about how I see things.

IMHO, I find it a nuance that open-forums have trolls, but they do. I also find it sad that egos are so fragile that the presence of a few trolls gets someone to leave and cut themselves off from the rest of the genuine sharing and caring.

There are trolls everywhere. Learn to get off the line of attack, don't take it so personally or seriously, practice compassion for those so insecure that they troll, relax, breath, enjoy yourself, and get back to focusing on your own training. This forum is another place to practice Aikido. Trolls are just another attack. Take advantage of the opportunity. Tenkan out of range and keep going to the next post or thread that can benefit you.

I personally left Aikido-L do to attacks, I won't make that mistake again.

I am sad when anyone does not take the opportunity to learn from any situation. But that is their choice. I respect it. If you can't handle the training, that's a statement about you. Don't ask other to do it for you. I am not a fan of trolls or censorship.

If my training cannot withstand a bit of questioning and attack, I need to train better.

Thus endeth the sermon. He gets off his soapbox. Picks up his bag and heads for the Dojo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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