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Old 01-19-2004, 08:03 PM   #101
Erik
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Huh?
I'd like to express a similar insight!
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:36 PM   #102
Suzanne Cooper
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DeLucia Sensei,

Your name seems familiar. I know NOTHING about martial arts of any sort, so I can't imagine why.

You weren't part of the Discovery Channel Extreme Martial Arts show recently, were you?

Please don't anyone laugh where I can hear you! My younger teenager and I watched it with rapt attention: I from the egg-headed, scientific side and she from the martial arts side. I do so poorly with names.

But was that you, Sensei?

I got guts, yes I do. I do aikido--do YOU?
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:56 PM   #103
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OK that needed to be read a couple of times but I think I get the idea and, assuming I did, I might agree.

Anyone who has even seen Aikido can judge - the value of judgement reflects the level of experience. That experience does not even have to be in Aikido per se.

To even suggest that being critical of Aikido somehow lacks in maturity is about as foolish as you can get. There are, depending on your perspective, plenty of holes in the art and more to the point plenty of holes in the way it is practiced. The questions, comments and opinions expressed on this board are in fact nothing new and all have at one time or other been discussed by some very senior Aikido folk including major students of Ueshiba M..

Several of them tested their Aikido under very trying circumstance, some developed methods to do the testing under relatively safe circumstance. Jason chooses NHB, People like Shioda, Chiba, Kobyashi H. went prowling. Tomiki developed an Aiki randori. All knew that ordinary practice is not going to teach you Aiki without some sort of confrontational experience.

I once had a 5th Dan in a style other then my own tell me "I am a fifth dan you can not judge my Aikido". Thing is I had seen a good number of fifth dans that really could do the business. I was perfectly placed to judge even though I was only Shodan. I could have been wrong but the right to judge was still there.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-20-2004, 08:23 AM   #104
indomaresa
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Quote:
Jason DeLucia (JasonFDeLucia) wrote:
who ever is judging that ,nobody here is qualified to judge aikido itself ,is putting him or herself (at least in his or her own opinion)above everyone else.to criticize aikido training you are criticizing aikido.to say that the thing you're looking at is not aiki is like saying there must be no ghosts because i've never seen one.and a person who has done aikido only in dojos of traditional etiquete can can never have the same level as the one who has in addition a combative nhb experience ,never ever ever...
Glad to see that Sensei deLucia is finally chiming in.

There's hundreds of aikido styles out there. If I criticize aikikai, am I criticizing aikido? No.

Sensei deLucia, Am I criticizing your style? I don't know, I haven't seen it. But I don't approve the way you use aikido as a popularity gimmick. ( Judging from www.aikidog.com )

Plus I disapprove of your conduct in my heart only. Read carefully and you'll notice that my posts didn't even word anything resembling critic "on" you.

And... I AGREE WITH YOU that traditional aikido training can never be the same with the one with additional combative experience. If you had the time to ask one of your pupils, miss wendyrowe, you'll find out that I wholeheartedly approve with your realistic aikido training. I've discussed this previously with her via private messages.

I'm pretty sure I could be wrong, you could be completely honorable person and your techniques and demeanor reflecting the very essence of aikido. But I DON"T KNOW THAT. I only have your site to judge with. ( and that martial art show on tv ) Don't mind me, I criticize aikido training all the time. Especially mine.

Mr. Rehse, IMO people should see every aspect of aikido before judging aikido itself. So I still think no one IS & WILL EVER BE qualified to judge aikido. only the training.

Judging someone's aikido is not judging aikido. We all know the difference. I haven't seen all of aikido, and I'm sure you or aikidog haven't, so there.


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Old 01-20-2004, 09:54 AM   #105
L. Camejo
 
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Hi folks,

Isn't every person's Aikido different? Even within the same dojo? As it comes from that individual's particular abilities and combination of mind, body, approach toward training, experiences, mindsets etc.

If this is the case, then all we can do is judge Aikido at the moment in time that we are judging "someone's Aikido". The simple truth is that EVERYONE'S Aikido is different at some level, but the thing that makes "Aikido" different from something like Boxing for instance is a set of principles that define what each system is supposed to achieve.

Hence, if a person has a solid grounding and understanding of "the principles" (with Shodan being understood as someone who has a solid grounding in the basics in many places), then one who understands the principles should be able to determine for him/herself that (A) What they are seeing can be called Aikido (in principle), and (B) Whether it's any good (i.e. if the performer is adhering to the principles). Of course the principles that different groups may choose to focus on may be different, but that does not change the number of principles, only the ones that are focussed on.

I mean, do we need to see every possible permutation of kotegaeshi to be able to effectively understand and apply the principle of the technique? I hope not.

Peter gave the example of a 5th Dan who said that Peter could not judge his Aikido, but then if the principles that we adhere to as Aikidoka are the same, then why not?

If we do not adhere to the same principles, then maybe we are not doing Aikido as we had thought. The question then becomes, who determines what are the original core of Aikido's principles. I'm sure there is enough recorded history of Ueshiba M. in training to figure that one out though.

Just a few thoughts. When I first read this thread I began to wonder if Tomiki K. came across similar comments in his time.

Train hard people.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 01-20-2004 at 09:57 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-20-2004, 03:24 PM   #106
SmilingNage
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Quote:
Jason DeLucia (JasonFDeLucia) wrote:
who ever is judging that ,nobody here is qualified to judge aikido itself ,is putting him or herself (at least in his or her own opinion)above everyone else.to criticize aikido training you are criticizing aikido.to say that the thing you're looking at is not aiki is like saying there must be no ghosts because i've never seen one.and a person who has done aikido only in dojos of traditional etiquete can can never have the same level as the one who has in addition a combative nhb experience ,never ever ever...
Well to say you are an Aikido teacher and not ever been taught in Aikido; That does leave yourself open to be criticized and rightfully so. You arent teaching Aikido, its your own special take on martial arts. You and what you are doing have no ties to Aikido. Take a look at what you call your style, combat Aikido. Look at the word Aikido and see what it translates to in english, the way of peace/harmony. So the name of your style is the combative way to peace/harmony? I guess it means I will beat peace into you. Maybe you mistook peace for "piece". Thus, I will beat you into piece(s)as your style's name would make sense.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:52 PM   #107
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
OK that needed to be read a couple of times but I think I get the idea and, assuming I did, I might agree.

Anyone who has even seen Aikido can judge - the value of judgement reflects the level of experience. That experience does not even have to be in Aikido per se.

To even suggest that being critical of Aikido somehow lacks in maturity is about as foolish as you can get. There are, depending on your perspective, plenty of holes in the art and more to the point plenty of holes in the way it is practiced. The questions, comments and opinions expressed on this board are in fact nothing new and all have at one time or other been discussed by some very senior Aikido folk including major students of Ueshiba M..

Several of them tested their Aikido under very trying circumstance, some developed methods to do the testing under relatively safe circumstance. Jason chooses NHB, People like Shioda, Chiba, Kobyashi H. went prowling. Tomiki developed an Aiki randori. All knew that ordinary practice is not going to teach you Aiki without some sort of confrontational experience.

I once had a 5th Dan in a style other then my own tell me "I am a fifth dan you can not judge my Aikido". Thing is I had seen a good number of fifth dans that really could do the business. I was perfectly placed to judge even though I was only Shodan. I could have been wrong but the right to judge was still there.
Peter Rehse ,thank you for your exact understanding.you said what i was thinking but was unable to write .simply because i am a fighter, does not mean that i don't think aikidoka don't fight .but i do think that generationaly practice becomes watered down if there isn't something to spur intensity.

nothing spurs intensity like getting knocked out.but simple competition will surfice.

jason delucia
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Old 01-20-2004, 06:01 PM   #108
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Quote:
Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
Glad to see that Sensei deLucia is finally chiming in.

There's hundreds of aikido styles out there. If I criticize aikikai, am I criticizing aikido? No.

Sensei deLucia, Am I criticizing your style? I don't know, I haven't seen it. But I don't approve the way you use aikido as a popularity gimmick. ( Judging from www.aikidog.com )

Plus I disapprove of your conduct in my heart only. Read carefully and you'll notice that my posts didn't even word anything resembling critic "on" you.

And... I AGREE WITH YOU that traditional aikido training can never be the same with the one with additional combative experience. If you had the time to ask one of your pupils, miss wendyrowe, you'll find out that I wholeheartedly approve with your realistic aikido training. I've discussed this previously with her via private messages.

I'm pretty sure I could be wrong, you could be completely honorable person and your techniques and demeanor reflecting the very essence of aikido. But I DON"T KNOW THAT. I only have your site to judge with. ( and that martial art show on tv ) Don't mind me, I criticize aikido training all the time. Especially mine.

Mr. Rehse, IMO people should see every aspect of aikido before judging aikido itself. So I still think no one IS & WILL EVER BE qualified to judge aikido. only the training.

Judging someone's aikido is not judging aikido. We all know the difference. I haven't seen all of aikido, and I'm sure you or aikidog haven't, so there.

maresa,i am only doing a literal take on the words used ,not intending to assert ill intent ,but some times ,like myself it happens that we write it not the way we thought it.it is not for me a popularity gimmic ,it is how i feed my family.any one who is comissioned to fight in any capacity,is in fact consistant with the legacy that brought the art to you .
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Old 01-20-2004, 06:19 PM   #109
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William Oakes (SmilingNage) wrote:
Well to say you are an Aikido teacher and not ever been taught in Aikido; That does leave yourself open to be criticized and rightfully so. You arent teaching Aikido, its your own special take on martial arts. You and what you are doing have no ties to Aikido. Take a look at what you call your style, combat Aikido. Look at the word Aikido and see what it translates to in english, the way of peace/harmony. So the name of your style is the combative way to peace/harmony? I guess it means I will beat peace into you. Maybe you mistook peace for "piece". Thus, I will beat you into piece(s)as your style's name would make sense.
once again you show what you dont understand.

the kanji for aiki has many allegories ,but the true literal martial meaning is to harmonize with every intension in order to control it.which is why hapkido is aikido.are you going to tell koreans that they can't use the kanji for hapki simply because it doesn't jive with your romantic notions of having a deeper understanding of peace and love ?no .these were allegorical translations by a very religious, pious man who wanted to make it more than just a martial art.but the fact is that the aiki kanji denotes the axioms and principles of the military form and it is a happy coinsidence that they validate pious precepts.harmony of energy militarily means ,when pushed ,pull,when pulled ,push,

when pushed ,turn,when pulled enter.you do not know this because you study from the religious perspective which was derived after the military.the kanji existed long before mr.ueshiba allegorized it.and if you've done your home work yould remember some significant quotes from mr.ueshiba...aikido is 99% atemi .thats right ..atemi.that means striking .i figured i would interpret it for you since you didn't know what aiki really meant . wakata?jason delucia
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:41 PM   #110
SmilingNage
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Quote:
Jason DeLucia (JasonFDeLucia) wrote:
once again you show what you dont understand.

the kanji for aiki has many allegories ,but the true literal martial meaning is to harmonize with every intension in order to control it.which is why hapkido is aikido.are you going to tell koreans that they can't use the kanji for hapki simply because it doesn't jive with your romantic notions of having a deeper understanding of peace and love ?no .these were allegorical translations by a very religious, pious man who wanted to make it more than just a martial art.but the fact is that the aiki kanji denotes the axioms and principles of the military form and it is a happy coinsidence that they validate pious precepts.harmony of energy militarily means ,when pushed ,pull,when pulled ,push,

when pushed ,turn,when pulled enter.you do not know this because you study from the religious perspective which was derived after the military.the kanji existed long before mr.ueshiba allegorized it.and if you've done your home work yould remember some significant quotes from mr.ueshiba...aikido is 99% atemi .thats right ..atemi.that means striking .i figured i would interpret it for you since you didn't know what aiki really meant . wakata?jason delucia
Ok once again you dont understand. You have this perception you are actually doing something new and your not. Principles taught in Aikido dont need to be justified by you, countless men have died over the centuries pursuing these techniques. What O'Sensei has done is to group techniques that he had learned and modify them to some degree and gave what his special type of martial art and martial understanding a name, Aikido.

Do you see a theme here. O'Sensei learned techniques, changed some, and gave it a NEW NAME. And the name Aikido represented how he felt what his SPECIAL brand of martial art was meant to do for the world. To sum it for you, he gave what he was a doing a new name. Does an explanation get any simplier than that. Can you follow?

Again, you are using Aikido name to give what you are doing accreditiblity. What you are doing is not Aikido. You are leetching off of its name for your own means. Aikido is an established martial art. And yet again, you have never been trained in Aikido. Where do you get off using a name which you have no ties too. I am not to familiar with Mass. law but I would I go far as to say what you are doing is fraud and deceitful advertising. You are not an Aikido teacher, you are a pitfighter.

As for me, you dont know anything about me. So dont speak for what I do and dont know, what I believe and disbelieve. What I am giving you is the straight facts as presented by you. But I will let you in on a little secret, learning martial arts is about self mastery not self justification. It's not about taking what you have taught and justifying yourself by calling people out to fight you when they dont agree with you. Its shameful, anyone who behaves in such a manner shouldn't have never been trained in any martial art.

As always you continue to miss the point of conversation, instead you fire back with threats,lack of understanding and most of all a lack of humility. But with just 2 wins over the last 4yrs, 2 major leg injuries, the truth is being revealed to you. I would have been able to continue this conversation and enjoyed the exchange, but there is nothing you can no longer offer me but a boorish,self centered point of view.

Do you understand? William Oakes

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 01-20-2004, 11:02 PM   #111
PeterR
 
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Now this is getting silly. I re-read the thread and his site.
Quote:
William Oakes wrote:
As always you continue to miss the point of conversation, instead you fire back with threats
Where exactly did he threaten you?
Quote:
William Oakes wrote:
And yet again, you have never been trained in Aikido.
What I understood from the web site is over ten years of Aikido training including at least one visit to Aikikai Honbu and an attempt to see what's out there besides the teachers he's directly exposed to. Can't see how you go from that to no training. I'm curious as to who his teachers were but odds on I wouldn't know them anyway.

I must say I'm pretty close to Jason's view of Aiki. One could make an argument that the mindset required for NHB goes against the Aikido philosophy but even here you have two people choosing to test themselves - there is effect is no aggressor and both people tend to walk away relatively intact. As I mentioned before there is in fact really no difference from some very well known shihan in their younger days.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-20-2004, 11:28 PM   #112
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Aiki at it's best.
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Old 01-21-2004, 03:59 AM   #113
erikmenzel
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My probably way to late comment to all of this would be that I never trained with DeLucia so I cannot comment on his aikido.

I did visit his website and indeed he is guilty of making a poor website but then again so is 95% of the people making website (probably including myself also) and that has never been a crime nor has it been anti-aiki.

Can we nowgo back to the dojo and start training again?

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 01-21-2004, 04:13 AM   #114
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Eric, no, it's much easier typing than training. Anyway, we haven't fully discussed whether Jason has committed the ultimate crime of misrepresenting useful martial techniques as aikido
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:53 AM   #115
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If you have any questions about Mr. Delucia's aikido, he has several video clips and pictures available on his website (click on "Aiki Clips").

From viewing the plain aikido clips, it doesn't look to me like he learned it out of a book....

=wl

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Old 01-21-2004, 12:49 PM   #116
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Quote:
William Oakes (SmilingNage) wrote:
O'Sensei learned techniques, changed some, and gave it a NEW NAME. And the name Aikido represented how he felt what his SPECIAL brand of martial art was meant to do for the world. To sum it for you, he gave what he was a doing a new name. Does an explanation get any simplier than that. Can you follow?
Hate to be a hair splitter here William but I don't think O-Sensei gave the art the name aikido. I'm working from memories here, maybe someone with a better one and more knowledge of aikido history could chime in. I think that the name was given by a commitee/commission and O-Sensei merely agreed to let it be called that. I think I remember reading that he wasn't particularly fond of it either but for political reasons let it stand (but I could be thinking of something else entirely on that point).

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 01-21-2004, 01:39 PM   #117
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aiki-budo at first, then aikido later

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The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 01-21-2004, 02:34 PM   #118
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Bronson Diffin (Bronson) wrote:
Hate to be a hair splitter here William but I don't think O-Sensei gave the art the name aikido.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...p?ArticleID=87

AN INTERVIEW WITH MINORU HIRAI

by Aikido Journal

Aikido Journal #100

AJ: I believe you played major role in the name-change from aiki budo to aikido when you were a representative of the Kobukan Dojo to the Daí Nihon Butokukai

MH: I was the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan beginning around 1942 and I helped out Ueshiba Sensei in daily matters. "Aikido," rather than being a specifically selected name, was the term used to refer to "Butokukai-Ryu" aiki budo within the Daí Nippon Butokukai. The headquarters of the Daí Nippon Butokukai was located in Kyoto and Butokuden centers were set up in all prefectures. Tatsuo Hisatomi from the Kodokan, and Shohei Fujinuma from kendo, were close friends of mine. The Butokukai was an independent, umbrella organization for the martial arts, and it also was in charge of martial arts in the police departments.

It was very difficult to create a new section in the Butokukai at that time. Mr. Hisatomi proposed the establishment of a new section including arts for actual fighting based on jujutsu techniques. The techniques of yawara (an alternate term for jujutsu) are comprehensive and also include the use of the ken and jo. I also made a number of suggestions and Mr. Fujinuma and Mr. Hisatomi understood my ideas. However, had I insisted on these things nothing would have been decided.

There was discussion within the Butokukai about the choice of a name for this new section. It was discussed many times in meetings of the Board of Directors, and particularly in the judo and kendo sections. We had to consider all of the different individual arts encompassed when we tried to come up with an all-inclusive name. It was decided to select an inoffensive name to avoid future friction among the different martial arts.

(More follows for subscribers.)

FWIW, this issue is also being discussed at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...1666#post61666.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 01-21-2004, 06:16 PM   #119
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"...but i do think that generational practice becomes watered down if there isn't something to spur intensity."

That, friends, is the truth.

Discover Who You Are

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Old 01-21-2004, 08:05 PM   #120
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william ,are you related to frank burns?
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:48 PM   #121
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Quote:
Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
Glad to see that Sensei deLucia is finally chiming in.

There's hundreds of aikido styles out there. If I criticize aikikai, am I criticizing aikido? No.

Sensei deLucia, Am I criticizing your style? I don't know, I haven't seen it. But I don't approve the way you use aikido as a popularity gimmick. ( Judging from www.aikidog.com )

Plus I disapprove of your conduct in my heart only. Read carefully and you'll notice that my posts didn't even word anything resembling critic "on" you.

And... I AGREE WITH YOU that traditional aikido training can never be the same with the one with additional combative experience. If you had the time to ask one of your pupils, miss wendyrowe, you'll find out that I wholeheartedly approve with your realistic aikido training. I've discussed this previously with her via private messages.

I'm pretty sure I could be wrong, you could be completely honorable person and your techniques and demeanor reflecting the very essence of aikido. But I DON"T KNOW THAT. I only have your site to judge with. ( and that martial art show on tv ) Don't mind me, I criticize aikido training all the time. Especially mine.

Mr. Rehse, IMO people should see every aspect of aikido before judging aikido itself. So I still think no one IS & WILL EVER BE qualified to judge aikido. only the training.

Judging someone's aikido is not judging aikido. We all know the difference. I haven't seen all of aikido, and I'm sure you or aikidog haven't, so there.

maresa,part of the misunderstanding with all of this is words .every body speaks different english .much like our aiki,the french in my family don't speak english like the italian in my family,and thats my own family.but in this problem my web page was made by people who know me ,but are not me .i am not a business man.so what is done for the benefit of business doesn't concern me so much ,and the small details don't either .but business feeds my family so i give license to those who run my business.my job is only fight, teach and train.for me aikido is the most beautiful form even though i must consider all forms in my job .too much time is spent by some(william oaks)telling people to do what they want them to do ,instead of doing it them selves for them selves.can't we all just get along?
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:54 PM   #122
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I don't really have much to say in interpreting this discussion. I will chime in with my opinions though. Mr. DeLucia, while obviously not currently holding a Ph.D. in English, seems to be a very down to earth and honest type of fellow. I can't say that I've found much fault with the things he's said. At least one person on this thread seems to take this whole thing as a personal attack and I feel that that person needs to go back and look at himself rather than post here.

I also agree with the comments that the invariably well spoken people on this thread have posited about the web site. I feel that if you publish, and you are publishing Mr. DeLucia, information that you should make every attempt to do your research (which you've done), develope what you want to say (which you've done but not very well), and then perform some kind of peer review (take for instance, this thread right here). It is you who are responsible for the information on your web site. You're entitled to say whatever you want, but from your replies it would seem to me that you've let other people say things and have provided them with an implicit consent to a work that you have not put enough time into making sure it is developed correctly.

I can honestly wish you the best of luck and respect in-so-far as I know about you. Please try to keep an open mind and listen to the people here whom you feel have valid concerns.

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Old 01-22-2004, 01:09 AM   #123
indomaresa
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No, no, sensei DeLucia, I'm not offended by your posts. Nor am I angry when I wrote it. You'll notice there are smiles under my posts

<<------

MY sensei had a similar experience of being an outcast in our foundation because of his practical approach to aikido. Teaching in the military and promoting the practical application of aikido seems to generate hostility from traditional dojos here (god knows why)

So, I feel some empathy with your current predicament

But now that you've cleared that the website design and wording wasn't made by you or in your knowledge, that's good enough for me.

However, if you don't mind my suggesting. Why not ask the web maker to modify the site, to be less promotional, and more informative? I found out that excesively promotional words can turn some people off ( which your site is guilty of). Properly worded information can catch more attention.

Btw, I'm a copywriter and designer. So I hope my suggestion can carry some more weight.

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Old 01-22-2004, 10:25 AM   #124
Budd
 
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I have more respect for a man like Mr. Delucia that is willing to break a sweat and try things out than for folks that philosophize and speak in quasi-mystical tones without ever taking risks to find out if their method of practice works.

I'm not singling anyone out (aside from Mr. Delucia, who has my respect), but I suspect I am being clear.
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Old 01-23-2004, 08:18 PM   #125
carloguevarra
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hey guys, mushin

Last edited by carloguevarra : 01-23-2004 at 08:21 PM.
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