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Old 12-15-2003, 08:59 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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As to aikido not having kicks, I was taught one kick by a 7th dan, and if you watch the AikiFriendship tapes, Saotome Sensei uses a kick on his uke (who happens to post here, actually).

I haven't checked out the site in question yet, I'll get to it shortly.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-15-2003, 10:58 AM   #27
Roy Dean
 
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Jason is a great martial artist. He actually puts his body on the line to test techniques and fighting methods. I respect the fact that he's trying to breath new life into aikido with his hard earned fighting perspectives and personal interpretation of the art.

The man has skills, and attributes, and the fact that he teaches groundwork as a complement to traditional Aikido tells me that he's both open minded and progressive.

He's had some impressive wins, and some losses, and some injuries. He's been around the block and I think the Aikido community should be very happy that a seasoned fighter would be willing to invest himself in this beautiful art.

Just my 2 cents.

Roy Dean

Discover Who You Are

www.roydeanacademy.com
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:04 AM   #28
Alfonso
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thanks, I'll pass on the dog..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:44 AM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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ok, not my thing...but hey, if it floats his boat...no big deal.

I'd be currious about his teachers, and what they think of what he does. Not that its any of my business...

Just in passing, there was a time when proponants of Daito ryu and other arts were willing to step up. In some ways, its a shame that time has passed...but in other ways, man, am I glad!

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-15-2003, 01:55 PM   #30
Michael Young
 
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I've been following this thread and debating with myself about posting in it again, because I'm going to come accross as very opinionated, but here goes...

Masa Katsu...it's one of the complex principles of Aikido...does it apply here, and if so how?

I don't know this guy. I don't know about his skill level, personality, integrity, etc. All I do know is that he has posted a web site where the motivation is obviously self promotion...a site that, IMO, presents Aikido in a disrespectful light...and presents the wrong idea to the general public about what Aikido is. Yes, I know there is a lot of argument going on about what Aikido is and isn't...but I've never seen O'Sensei nor an Aikido Shihan wondering around in bikini briefs with knee pads on, flexing their muscles. Maybe I'm mistaken here (insert sarcastic tone), but from those Shihan and direct students of the founder is where Aikido is being handed down to us from...and maybe we ought to look to them a little more often for their guidance instead of making statements like "26 years experience in Martial Arts and over 50 professional fights " and "studying O-Sensei's techniques from his many videos and books" as justification for claiming some type of unique vision that gives one the ability to present Aikido differently than is traditionally done (don't want to split hairs on how Aikido is traditionally presented..suffice it to say that this website is WAY out of the norm, thus the reason we're discussing it).
Quote:
I respect the fact that he's trying to breath new life into aikido with his hard earned fighting perspectives and personal interpretation of the art.
I wasn't aware Aikido needed "new life breathed into it", with the growth of so many dojos and students it seems to be breathing just fine to me. I submit that maybe looking harder at how to practice Aikido more sincerely in the form it is being taught now, instead of looking for some half-baked,ill-concieved way of making it "better", would be the path to follow.
Quote:
I am interested in applications of Aikido philosophy to what may be new and more effective techniques. Delucia is trying to apply aikido technique to the MMA ring world. I'm quite interested to see if THAT works.
AGATSU- The defeat of one's ego...without concern with winning and losing, life/death...pick another definition or interpretation if you like, but how does that apply here? I have a hard time believing that stepping into a ring with the intentions of winning and/or defeat over another, or winning a title or trophy, is application of Aikido. It may be application of techniques as learned in a dojo somewhere, but it is definitely not application of Aikido principles...many techniques of Aikido derived from Daito Ryu Aiki Jyu-Jitsu and other MA's, this doesn't mean that by practicing and applying those techniques that one is practicing or applying Aikido. I might apply a nikkyo or irimi nage to someone, but without the correct spirit and intention behind them, I'm not doing Aikido. To "advertise" and present Aikido in this light is misleading and incorrect. What is going on here is sport, nothing less, nothing more...if you really want to test your technique, go down to the local bar and pick a fight...yeah, picking fights at your local bar is not Aikido, but then neither is stepping into a ring...so don't present it as such.

That's my main issue here...not that DeLucia wants to make money or promote himself. If he wants to persue many martial arts and be a competitive winner in the ring, and use his Aikido practice to supplement this...more power to him, I hope he finds what he wants. But don't present this to the public as Aikido please.

I hate coming accross as hardline here...I believe Aikido encompasses many things and that anyone should practice who wants to...but if you want to present yourself as an instructor, there is a certain level of integrity and respect for the art that should be maintained.

Just my 2 cents

Best regards,

Mike,

always keep an open mind, but don't let your brain fall out in the process
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Old 12-15-2003, 02:04 PM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Speaking of Masa Katsu Agatsu Katsu Hayabi...

There are some interesting comments on this phrase in the following thread:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...threadid=15895

Oh, the interesting comments are by Peter Goldsbury, not me...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-15-2003, 05:44 PM   #32
Alfonso
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Mr. Ron, if you could posibly elucidate on that post over here... i assume you mean this part..
Quote:
Masa-katsu ( = tadashiku katta = I truly won, i.e., in a proper fashion) A-gatsu ( = watashi wa katta = I won = It was I myself who won and no one else) Kachi haya-bi (q?1/2 = binsoku katta = I won with speed and agility).
sounds like Mojo-Jojo to me..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-15-2003, 07:14 PM   #33
Noel
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Lots of glittery, sparkly things on that page. Kinda offends my sense of propriety, but I'm just a curmudgeon. (Ask my wife, she'll confirm it.)

Were I back in Eastern Mass, I'd probably prefer a place with less flash. For instance, there's little place on Mass Ave in Cambridge, just past Porter Square...
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Old 12-15-2003, 09:04 PM   #34
Michael Young
 
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Hail fellow Curmudgeon! Best regards to your offended sense of propriety and your astute wife...count yourself lucky to have both, as I do

Mike
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Old 12-15-2003, 09:48 PM   #35
Chris Raywood
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I don't know what to make out of this site, but I tend to side with what was previously mentioned by Michael Young and Kieum Kim.

Somehow the old phrase "Gargage in, garbage out" come to mind refering to information that has value.

If this man has anything to contribute to the art, either in whole or in part, then such contribution(s) will stay and be made use of. If he does not, his site (and/or ideas) will sooner or later disappear.

Personally, (and maybe through my own character flaw) I tend to be put off by any multi-faceted "expert" that claims to be the new messiah of any art.

On the other hand, and with the respect I have for martial artists who put their "money where their mouth is" and get in a ring, I will say this:

No art, whether martial or otherwise stays stagnant. It either evolves, or its dies. I'm sure I don't have to point out to the respondents on this site the number of times in history where an individual presented new ideas that went against traditionalist views or mainstream thought. Their contributions changed and benefited mankind from that day forward.

2 cents.

Regards,

Chris

PS My compliments to Ms. Rowe for jumping in and defending her Sensei. Even though I may not agree with everything she had to say, such an trait is certainly admirable.
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Old 12-15-2003, 10:25 PM   #36
Michael Young
 
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Thank you Mr. Raywood for you astute comments, it made me re-read my post, and realize I should have complimented Ms. Rowe on her bravery to stick her neck out as well. My apologies Ms. Rowe, I mean no disrespect to you or your instuctor, and admire your gumption, I also wish you both the best in your Aikido endeavors (although I still stand by my opinions about the website, etc). I would also like to say a general thank you to everyone replying to this thread so far, for keeping it a civil and respectful discusion.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 12-16-2003, 03:17 AM   #37
happysod
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Wendy, please pass on my support to your sensei. I like different takes on aikido and personally prefer his more "practical" take on aikido to those sites which prefer the esoteric approach.

To those who find the site an affront, all I can say is remember the aiki-golf one?

[insert badly translated smug admonishment here]
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Old 12-16-2003, 12:25 PM   #38
AsimHanif
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My 2 cents...

Aikido is just one of many means to an end. Since each individual in this world has a unique way of understanding, each individual will respond to different means. So no, aikido is not for everybody, although it's benefits can be shared by all.

To a deeper part of this question I answer with another question...

Has aikido been there for everyone?

I don't know of others experiences but I have ALWAYS one of the few Blacks in the dojo (if not THE only). I often wonder why that is. I don't feel that aikido has been accessible to certain demographics. I am not saying that is a fault of the art that we study but it may be a flaw in how we as practitioners market or reach out to others of the various ethnicities. I believe that if aikido is to spread and become relevant in the future somehow we have to reach a wider audience than what has been the norm for the past 30 years.
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Old 12-16-2003, 06:04 PM   #39
DaveO
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I've been debating whether or not to post on this thread; might as well wade in hip-deep.

Let's look at this:

Here's a guy who's been studying MA for - as he says - 25 years; primarily specializing in groundfighting. His venue of choice is the MMA arena - something in which while I'm not a fan; I'm certainly not against. It's just another venue.

During his travel through the MA world; he has turned to Aikido for a different skillset. He believes in aikido enough to devote a site - or part of a site - to it.

From his student; we see he's an honest, respectful teacher; teaching traditional (I assume aikikai) aikido while practicing its use in MMA for his own expansion.

People have a problem with this?

To put it bluntly; he does what turns his crank. No-one has the right to say he's right or wrong; any more than with anyone else's personal opinions, beliefs, practices, etc. Agree/disagree, debate, yes, but to state outright "This is garbage" is highly arrogant - hardly what aikido teaches, don't you think?

What he does in the MMA ring isn't true aikido? No, of course it isn't; so what? He's competing in a bloody hard field; no art in that field is 'true'. It's a blend of what the individual finds works best for him.

A couple people have stated they don't agree with - to quote one - "I tend to be put off by any multi-faceted "expert" that claims to be the new messiah of any art." Show me where on his site he claims that.

Another didn't like the chosen costume of briefs and kneepads - that's standard dress in the MMA ring. I don't particularly like it either; but if the rules say that's what one wears, then that's what one wears. (Besides, kneepads are just good sense in that venue.)

"Aikido is what it is for each person." That's been stated time and again by the best on this forum, and generally agreed to - until someone shows up and actually does change it to suit himself. Speaking for myself; I certainly wouldn't mind learning a bit from the Sensei in question; I'd learn a lot.

There is one thing about the site, and his technique, that I disagree with however; and Wendy; I'd be grateful if you'd pass this on to your teacher.

He's chosen to call his style 'Combat Aikido'. While it's a flashy name; I really don't like the word 'combat' being used so loosely - those of us who have seen real-life combat overseas find it somewhat offensive. Combat is about death, pain and fear. It's something no sane human wants to associate with; but go into anyway in the service of our country. No real objections here; just personal ones, but please tell him I said - with the greatest of respect and geniality - that if he knew the true, horrific nature of combat; he's be less inclined to use it as an advertising slogan.

Thanks.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 12-16-2003, 07:14 PM   #40
Noel
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Personally, I have no problem with people teaching whatever they please, be it martial arts, curling, or koryu basket-weaving. Caveat emptor. I, however, have gotten a bad vibe every time I've been in a place that promises Combat-this, or Streetfighting-that. I've had friends get hurt (unintentionally) by the overly enthusiastic products of those kinds of dojo.

I think Wendy has guts for standing up and being counted. However, it doesn't change the fact that if I were looking for a place to practice, after seeing a website like that, I'd let my fingers keep walking, metaphorically.

BTW, what the heck is aiki-golf Ian?
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Old 12-16-2003, 07:57 PM   #41
Chris Raywood
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[quote="Dave Organ (DaveO)"]A couple people have stated they don't agree with - to quote one - "I tend to be put off by any multi-faceted "expert" that claims to be the new messiah of any art." Show me where on his site he claims that.

Dave:

Maybe my wording came over a little strong, and if that be the case, I apologize to you. However, any person that states on their website that they have "a unique understanding of Aikido and groundfighting" well what can I say. Sounds like "one who deliveres a message" to me.

With best regards,

Chris
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Old 12-16-2003, 08:20 PM   #42
wendyrowe
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Re John Riggs' credentials question:

Jason Sensei told me he plans to post on this thread. So rather than my passing along secondhand info, I'll leave it to him.

Thanks for some good posts and an interesting exchange of ideas, folks. But I hope it winds down soon; I'm losing sleep because I keep sneaking downstairs to my computer to see what's popped up since last time I looked.
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Old 12-16-2003, 09:04 PM   #43
Chris Birke
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An aside: The reason people don't wear more clothes in mma is because they turn into little more than gripping handles on your body and a noose around your neck.

It's not a uniform because of it's look, its purely a matter of functionality.

The reason they wear tight pants is because muai thai shorts ride up when you grapple...

(the reason for any pants at all is to keep the cup securely in place, an unquestionably wise descision)
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Old 12-16-2003, 09:45 PM   #44
indomaresa
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[POOF!]

a suggestion?

wendy, why not take off the site's content and replace it with less self-promotion and more practical information

i.e ; fighting techniques, photos of him in the dojo,

and btw,

what's a cudmurgeon? what does 'caveat emptor' means? curious....

[POOF!]

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 12-16-2003, 09:52 PM   #45
Michael Young
 
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Have to jump back in an clear a couple of things up...

Like I put in my disclaimer on my first post, I was a little uncomfortable with responding to all this because I felt the tone of my post would come off rather strong...looks like maybe it did to some and not to others. Mostly I would like to respond to Mr.Organ's post. I won't speak for what others have posted but only for myself and the issues he addressed from my post.

Mr. Organ wrote:
Quote:
From his student; we see he's an honest, respectful teacher; teaching traditional (I assume aikikai) aikido while practicing its use in MMA for his own expansion.
Quote:
People have a problem with this?
I have absolutely no problem with this. As I stated in the last post, I don't know Mr. Dulucia, all I have to go by is what he posted on a website. My opinions were regarding the way Mr. Delucia is presenting Aikido on his website...it looks like you also have an opinion on this too, as regards his use of the word "combat" and how it does not portray the spirit of Aikido, or could give the wrong idea or conotation. My opinion about the site extends further beyond just that word, to the portrayal of Aikido to the public, please re-read my post, as I don't want to re-write all of the reasons...I will address a few more things, however.

Please note I did write in the post:
Quote:
If he wants to persue many martial arts and be a competitive winner in the ring, and use his Aikido practice to supplement this...more power to him, I hope he finds what he wants. But don't present this to the public as Aikido please.
I try not to write any opinion like this lightly and think it through before I do, so I meant it in all sincerity when I said I hope he finds what he is looking for...I've got no problem in the world with any other martial arts, or anybody mixing martial styles, cross training etc...but combining Karate, Tae Kwon Do, groudfighting, and Tai Chi, etc., then calling it Combat Tai Chi is no more correct than what Mr. Delucia has done with regard to Aikido on his site.

Also Mr. Organ wrote:
Quote:
Another didn't like the chosen costume of briefs and kneepads - that's standard dress in the MMA ring.
I'm sure that was a reference to what I wrote, but it is taken a bit out of context. I did not say I didn't like the chosen "costume", in fact I didn't say anything about my like or dislike of it, this is what I wrote:
Quote:
I've never seen O'Sensei nor an Aikido Shihan wondering around in bikini briefs with knee pads on, flexing their muscles.
I'll admit, the language comes off rather strong, and I should have phrased it better or added to it. I'll take the opportunity to now: In the ring of commercial fights, I can see the practicality of wearing briefs and kneepads (I won't say anything about flexing muscles) I don't have a like or dislike of it anymore than I have a like or dislike of the uniform of a boxer or any other activity..it is simply a tradition and/or practicality of the chosen activity. But again, let me beat my dead horse some more, it is not the appropriate portrayal of Aikido (again, I'm referencing my experiences with how Aikido is given to us by the Shihan and thus indirectly, O'Sensei).

Another quote from Mr. Organ
Quote:
What he does in the MMA ring isn't true aikido? No, of course it isn't; so what?
There is the problem sir, he is portraying that it is Aikido on this website...that is what, IMO, needs to change.

Please understand, I am not trying to personally attack Mr. Delucia, I simply disagree with the commercialized blend of martial arts he is trying to pass off as Aikido on his web site, and the way in which it is done. I am also very skeptical of people with only 10 years experience in Aikido making statements to the effect they have unique and better views of what Aikido is and the ability to change it to something better or new.

I hope I made clear some of what I meant in my earlier post, and in the process haven't offended. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to read my opinions Mr. Organ, your post gave me the opportunity to solidify what I meant and hopefully gave others food for thought as you have for me.

Sincerely,

Mike
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Old 12-17-2003, 01:12 AM   #46
Abasan
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Caveat Emptor is buyer beware.. essentially saying is, you buy a product service on as is where is basis. if you fail to like it later, thats your problem.

as far as cudmurgeon goes your guess is as good as mine and since i don't have a dictionary with me, it means i have to buy more readers digest and go through their word power section more often.

i thought i read somewhere in aikiweb that the jason delucia posting here was a fake one?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 12-17-2003, 02:46 AM   #47
wendyrowe
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Ahmad Abas,

It was in the "No Holds Barred Fighting" thread that Jason Sensei posted and someone said it wasn't really him.

But you have my word that it really was him posting; he even remembers the exchange.

Wendy
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Old 12-17-2003, 04:33 AM   #48
indomaresa
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ahmad, thank you for the translation.

So if I were to use it in a sentence, it would be something like; "all of you caveats should emptor of empty promises from the vendors"

Caveat emptor is latin right? I wonder what's the latin for "takemusu aiki"

Curmudgeon is.... (flipping thru dictionary);

curmudgeon

An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 12-17-2003, 05:26 AM   #49
paw
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Let me see if I understand....

Aiki-Extensions = Good

Combat Aikido = Bad

KiAiGolf = ????

Disagreeing with Jason Delucia is ok, saying he's not teaching "true" aikido is alright, that's a difference of opinion. If Mr. Delucia stops posting in the general fora because of these concerns, that is what is it. Questioning another Sensei results in people being labled as "trolls" and if that Sensei stops posting in the general fora, then this site loses credibility.

Did I get that straight?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 12-17-2003, 05:32 AM   #50
Peter Goldsbury
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Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola (Alfonso) wrote:
Mr. Ron, if you could posibly elucidate on that post over here... i assume you mean this part..



sounds like Mojo-Jojo to me..
I am not Ron, but No, it is not Mojo-jojo, whatever that means.

It is a translation/explanation of what the phrase Masakatsu Agatsu Katsu Hayabi actually means in the context where it was first used in written Japanese.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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