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Old 12-05-2003, 01:35 AM   #1
BKimpel
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Sep 2003
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'with the joint'

Does anyone know if Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu's Aiki-Buken teaches only techniques that go ‘with the joint', or was that an invention of O-sensei (invention meaning he chose a subset of Daito-Ryu - only the techniques that blend ‘with the joint' and not against the joint as in traditional jujutsu styles)?

I have of course seen some Aikido techniques that go 'against the joint' but very few. Futhermore, the main style of Aikido that promotes many of the ‘against the joint' techniques (such as empi-nage, similar to ikkyo but locking the elbow) come from Gozo Shioda (of Yoshinkan Aikido) and he studied Daito-Ryu after he left O-sensei to start his own independent dojos.

Now I am not asking does Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu have both ‘with the joint' and ‘against the joint' techniques (I know it does). I am asking are all the Daito-Ryu ‘with the joint' techniques grouped together as one set (such as the Aiki-Buken) and are they taught separately from the ‘against the joint' techniques.

I am really wondering if the use of just the ‘with the joint' techniques was a construct of O-sensei in order to promote HIS idea of Aiki (harmony), or whether that particular concept was already established in Aiki-Bujutsu.

Bruce Kimpel
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Old 12-05-2003, 07:55 AM   #2
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
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Isn't the throw where you lever their elbow against your shoulder and throw them over your shoulder part of the daito-ryu stuff? From what I've read and discussed with aiki-jitsu people I'm under the impression that with/against the joint seperation is artificial. I'm not sure if the differentiation is really important since all 'with the joint' techniques can be used to break the joint, just as 'against the joint' techniques.

Interestingly even techniques like kaiten-nage and sumi-otoshi are easily turned in to joint dislocation (in this case the shoulder) techniques.

I think what Ueshiba did with all these techniques was to produce a method of training which could be vigorous and realistic (i.e. not staggered of having to with-hold power) without damaging uke, yet contained within them the ability to cause great damage if necessary. (no technique comes to mind which cannot easily become a killing/disabling technique).

Ian

Last edited by ian : 12-05-2003 at 08:01 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 12-05-2003, 10:15 PM   #3
BKimpel
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Let me explain my concept of ‘with the joint', and ‘against the joint'.

Take for example the difference between kote-gaeshi in Aikido, and the same technique in formal jujutsu arts.

Most Jujutsu styles do a version of kote-geashi with both hands on one, and directly apply the pressure to the joint of the wrist - straight backward. The technique relies completely on pain to subdue uke, and if uke does not respond to the pain the wrist will break.

Kote-gaeshi in Aikido is different in that the whole movement around the technique causes uke to fall before the ‘lock' portion of the technique reaches a critical breaking point. Furthermore the pressure in kote-gaeshi is not straight back against uke's wrist, it is to the side (i.e. with the natural movement of the wrist MORE THAN against the joint).

That is what I am talking about.

Now what I was wondering was Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsju one of the first jujutsu styles to emphasize movements that utilize the principle of the joint lock to make uke fall rather than relying on the pain of the technique to make uke submit (diametrically different than all jujutsu/classic judo styles I have seen). Or was that a construct of O-sensei (i.e. did he pick and chose out only the techniques that met that goal, or furthermore did he actually alter the DR AJJ techniques to make them like that).

Bruce Kimpel
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:06 AM   #4
lt-rentaroo
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Howdy,

I understand the difference you are referring to. I've seen, practiced, and taught Aikido's Kotegaeshi in both manners. If the technique doesn't work as well using version 1, then you can switch to version 2 easily. I'm sure other members on this board share the same experience. I'm not certain one way is more specific to Daito-ryu or Aikido than the other.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:17 AM   #5
lt-rentaroo
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Oh, my apologies for not attempting to answer your question. It is a good question though, I'm interested to hear what the older (read: more experienced) members on the board have to say.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 12-07-2003, 12:38 AM   #6
indomaresa
Dojo: Aiki Kenkyukai
Location: Indonesia
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Jujutsu? ...and I thought I was practicing aikido kotegaeshi

The regular with-the-joint kotegaeshi isn't very effective for beginners, gives uke a chance to counter.

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 12-12-2003, 03:43 PM   #7
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
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Quote:
Bruce Kimpel (BKimpel) wrote:
Take for example the difference between kote-gaeshi in Aikido, and the same technique in formal jujutsu arts.

Most Jujutsu styles do a version of kote-geashi with both hands on one, and directly apply the pressure to the joint of the wrist - straight backward. The technique relies completely on pain to subdue uke, and if uke does not respond to the pain the wrist will break.

Bruce,

I would have to disagree with you there. The technique that your are referring to is called Kono Gaeshi. It really doesn't rely on pain to subdue the attacker. The movement of the hips is what makes the technique effective. As you lock up ukes wrist and shuffle forward (or just by simple extension of your arms) can cause uke to drop. Thats how the techniques is really done versus something that relies completely on pain as you described.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 12-15-2003, 01:28 PM   #8
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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I have seen kote gaeshi taught in both ways in the ikkajo and nikkajo syllibus from the mainline of Daito ryu. As most of my experience is in yoshinkan, I'm more comfortable in saying that both ways of doing throws are taught there. I do know that in some of the police training I've seen in the states, there is a stress on locks that go with the joint, due to the need to reduce injuries and subsequent law suits.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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