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Old 12-20-2000, 11:55 PM   #1
Erik
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Whatever the training task, the pace must be ruthlessly brisk. The learner should be expected to build at the same pace as an experienced developer. The difference between the learner and the wizard is that you expect the learner to make a lot of mistakes. The system as built may be awkward or not handle error cases properly. That's okay. Training research shows that if you get speed now you can get quality later. But if you don't get speed you will never get quality in the long run. We practice this technique in 6.916, Software Engineering for Web Applications, our course at MIT. Each student builds five database-backed Web applications during the 13-week semester. The first few that they build, during the course of the problem sets, are not necessarily elegant or optimal, but by the end of the semester they've become remarkably proficient, especially when you consider that each student is taking three or four other classes.

The bold part of this article caught my eye. The author seems to be encouraging the idea of going out and doing a lot of cuts, very fast, and if you do them fast enough and often enough you'll soon be able to handle a bokken.

Granted he's talking about software development but learning is learning. This seems to fly in the face of the way I've been taught Aikido which tended to emphasize consistent and regular practice. In fact, quality has always been emphasized before quantity. Always! Anyone ever put this to the test or is it something we've just accepted as a truism?

Thoughts?

The full text of the article, which is really about management, not training, can be found at http://www.arsdigita.com/asj/managin...re-engineers/.
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Old 12-21-2000, 01:54 AM   #2
jvdz
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Smile

I think what that author meant was, if you want to link it to aikido, not develop speed but train hard.
You can compare it with running: if you start with fast running, you can always switch back to walking (marathon style for instance). If you start with marathon it's much harder to step up and go for fast running (you know: 100 metre, 60 metre).
So, I think it's not speed that counts. How will you develop a firm stance if you always go fast? There is a difference between hard training and fast training.

I hope I made a clear point!hehe.

Jan van der Zee
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Old 12-21-2000, 07:51 AM   #3
Aikilove
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Lightbulb

You still have to bare in mind that training your brain compared to training your brain, reflexes and your body as hole (specially the last one) is alot different to each other. If you have seen MATRIX you maby understand what I mean. In the movie after gotten information pressed in to his brain Keanu suddenly says - I know Kung Fu!
This unfortunatly or fortunatly doesn't work as you all MA -practioners now. Simply because you have to learn your body, even more than your mind to move in a certain way. And there is only one way today to do that -train!

Have a nice x-mas and new year!

Jakob B

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 12-21-2000, 08:56 AM   #4
lyam
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Circle

Practicing slowly (but smoothly) encourages correct movements. Speed will come when needed. The more you practice incorrect movements, however quick they may be, the more they are reinforced. Speed is easy to vary, in/correctness is difficult to vary.

I'm not sure if this is correct for all people in all things, but it is for me in aikido.

I also agree with Aikilove - 'train!'

Happy Holidays!

-Sean
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Old 12-21-2000, 09:34 AM   #5
Chuck Clark
 
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Training with speed and power is okay for a small percentage of your training time if you train slowly without kinryokyu (sort of "brute force") but kokyuryokyu (force as natural as breathing) the rest of the time. Adding speed and power to a mistake just exacerbates the problem.

Try this...train slowly and gently, but with proper rhythm and get up from the ukemi quickly. Waste no time in between.

Falling down is easy, it's getting up that can be hard work. All activity during practice should be relaxed. Keep a lively but relaxed pace.

Periodically, let out the stops and "test" your ability to stay relaxed while going fast.

Safe and Happy Holidays to All.

Chuck Clark
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Old 12-21-2000, 10:13 AM   #6
BC
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I think it's also important to remember that training in and developing speed and accuracy skills in computer programming is more a matter of cost and efficiency than developing speed and accuracy in aikido and other martial arts. In aikido, it doesn't matter how fast you can execute a technique if you can't make it work! This could be somewhat important if faced with a life and death situation (at least to me!). Since aikido techniques require such precision, I would rather place more emphasis on precision than on speed initially. Once you can precisely execute techniques at manageable speeds, the ability to do them faster will come naturally. For example, this is precisely one of the methods of training in taijiquan, and I have seen that it works.

Additionally, has anyone ever seen Kissaburo Osawa Sensei in person or on film? He was known for his style of a slower, graceful technique, yet he was very effective. Aikido techiniques don't necessarily have to be executed with great speed to be effective. IMHO

Robert Cronin
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Old 12-21-2000, 12:04 PM   #7
crystalwizard
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To quote

What one of the more experienced Akidoka at my dojo said (he's got 10+ years)

Many people use speed to make up for bad technique. If you want to know if you're doing the technique correctly, move real slow.

same thing in any physical activity. You start slow riding a bike, pitching a ball, ice skating, whatever..and once you've done it enough times to have it programed in so you dont have to think about it you build speed. Then when you move rapidly you also move CORRECTLY

hate to argue with the originaly quoted author but he's dead wrong.

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Kelly Christiansen

A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 12-21-2000, 01:57 PM   #8
cguzik
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In software engineering training, it's useful to emphasize development speed because if what you build does not work, you can go back and review it and debug it and analyze what went wrong. The code gets nicely persisted in a medium where it can be examined after the fact, and even executed again and again in very structured simulations.

In aikido training, something happens and then it's gone. If you rush through it you never get the chance to examine it carefully after the fact. Certain facets may stick with you, but the complete perfection of the moment will be gone and all that remain are traces in your memory.

In aikido training we should move at a speed which challenges our ability to move correctly but not so fast that we cannot maintain full awareness of what's happening.

Chris Guzik
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Old 12-21-2000, 02:24 PM   #9
REK
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Re: To quote

Quote:
crystalwizard wrote:

hate to argue with the originaly quoted author but he's dead wrong.
I don't. It's a bunch of horse exhaust.

Rob

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Old 12-21-2000, 03:53 PM   #10
Erik
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Reread my original posting and didn't like how I wrote it. Let's add some things.

Messing up is critical feedback for the learning process. I believe the author's contention is that by speeding up the screw up process, you speed up the feedback process which speeds up the learning process. I assume you've all endured the sensei who could allow no wrong? To put it bluntly, I think they are sensei's of the worst kind. Screw up more to learn more. Although, ideally there are some mistakes you don't have to repeat or why have a teacher.

Secondly (one wasn't enough), there is something to be said for immersion. I've spent a lot of time listening to "consistent and regular practice is the key." If so, why is it that I know people who completely contradict this concept? The people who have learned quickly and became exceptional are almost always people who immerse themselves. Think O'Sensei's uchi deshi for a more general example. If there's no validity to this, why have the programs?

Lastly, has anyone ever really studied the idea of speed then quality? Or, do we just assume it? I guess the more general point here (because I believe in certain fundamentals as well) is that the author presented something completely counter to normal thinking. He's a smart guy, very smart. I'm willing to consider the possibility that he's right or that there is something to take from what he's saying. So are we discounting him because we've carefully evaluated the idea or because it challenges basic conceptions and historical norms about what we do?

[Edited by Erik on December 21, 2000 at 03:21pm]
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Old 12-21-2000, 05:18 PM   #11
Aikilove
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Quote:
Erik wrote:
So are we discounting him because we've carefully evaluated the idea or because it challenges basic conceptions and historical norms about what we do?
I don't know, but you got a point there!

Jakob B

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 12-21-2000, 05:45 PM   #12
Richard Harnack
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Speed in Training

Speed training in any physical activity is important. However, the type of speed discussed in the original article was of the type which says, "Let's get it done fast, we can fix it later".

In Aikido, and quite possibly even in computer programming, we first need to learn how to move properly and correctly then develop speed.

Even granting the author his premise, I have learned that attempting to do it right the first time through usually saves a lot of needless debugging.


Training movement slowly is appropriate when first learning the technique. At some point you have practiced the movement enough at one speed, and need to pick up the pace of training. Despite many people believing it, Aikido is not Tai Chi, neither does Aikido have much in common with Tai Chi. Tai Chi when performed at full speed is usually described as "combat Tai Chi", better known as the underlying art of Kung Fu.

Aikido is as graceful as ballet, but this does not mean that Aikido is ballet.

It is important in teaching that when we draw comparison between Aikido and other activities, that we remind our students and ourselves that we are doing so to call attention to a particular element of Aikido, and, that we are not saying Aikido is the same as the other art.

Proper training includes patience in learning and practicing a move, it also involves developing speed and facility with the movement, and, ultimately "understanding" the move.

I am sorry, but speed for speed's sake can only lead to disaster without having proper movement underlying the speed.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 12-21-2000, 06:02 PM   #13
cguzik
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Running Speed Versus Debugging Speed

In software engineering, when your program works, you run it at full speed. When it's not working, you run it slowly, in a debugger, stepping through the code a bit at a time. Sometimes you think it's going to work and run it at full speed, and then find it doesn't actually work -- and then you go back to the slow debugging process to figure out where things didn't go quite right.

I don't know about you all, but this seems to fit the way my aikido training goes pretty well.

So, to answer the original question, I think we learn how and where our errors occur at slow speeds and I think we discover that those errors exist at faster speeds. Efficient training needs a bit of both I suspect.

Chris Guzik

[Edited by cguzik on December 21, 2000 at 05:12pm]
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Old 12-21-2000, 08:41 PM   #14
Kolschey
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Unhappy Speed too often means flash over substance

Not only is the speed approach problematic for Aikido, but it also seems to produce poor software that never really gets properly made, no matter how many patches you slap onto version six, seven, eight point five, etc. I can only pray that more software engineers begin to take a budo approach, rather than a slapdash approach to coding. I have grown increasingly frustrated by error ridden hardware, software, operating systems, manuals and applications. If my Aikido was as sloppy as some of the computer applications I have had to deal with, I would quickly run out of willing partners to train with. I suspect that our software companies could find themselves in a similar predicament if they were ever confronted by companies that emphasize quality over speed to market. In that way, it is not unlike the difference between a serious practitioner who may take longer to learn solid technique, and the McDojo stylist whose theatrical stunts, fancy costumes, and tournament specific techniques are ill prepared to be used effectively in a real world context.

Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me" -Rudyard Kipling
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Old 12-21-2000, 10:42 PM   #15
tedehara
 
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Speedy Aikido

Quote:
Erik wrote:
...

Lastly, has anyone ever really studied the idea of speed then quality? Or, do we just assume it? I guess the more general point here (because I believe in certain fundamentals as well) is that the author presented something completely counter to normal thinking. He's a smart guy, very smart. I'm willing to consider the possibility that he's right or that there is something to take from what he's saying. So are we discounting him because we've carefully evaluated the idea or because it challenges basic conceptions and historical norms about what we do?

[Edited by Erik on December 21, 2000 at 03:21pm]
I had an opportunity to attend part of a 3 day Yoshinkan seminar. During the evening I was there, we went through a drill doing quick, repetitive shihonage. I don't know how long it lasted, but it seemed endless. Luckly, I had the best partner I've worked with in an inpromptu situation like that.

Honestly, I can't say if massive repetition helps in learning a technique. I knew how to do shihonage reasonably well before I started that exercise. The only thing is that when you do repetitive technique, your technique usually gets sloppy after fatigue sets in. Another thing (perhaps this is what they were trying to promote) is that you have to rely more on your body's instinctive moves, rather than try and do/move everything according to some plan.

On the downside, you really need more "healing" time than an average class. The physical abuse itself, might put some people off.

Perhaps on a physical level, the feedback from the technique is better, but on a conscious level, it is almost non-existant.

For myself, speed is a component of ma-ai (distance) rather than physical quickness. Since the ability to relax enhances your awareness and ma-ai, speed begins to be affected by your own state of mind.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 12-22-2000, 05:29 AM   #16
crystalwizard
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Quote:
Erik wrote:
So are we discounting him because we've carefully evaluated the idea or because it challenges basic conceptions and historical norms about what we do?]
Carefully evaluated the idea...based on personal experience and the experience of other people.

The example of programing was given and it's valid but there are many other activities where speed is only valid AFTER the technique has been learned well enough that you dont have to think about what you are doing.
Very very bad to bull your way through anything like that..at least if you want to be good at it.
You might with your speed succeed in throwing uke and no one noticing that you're doing so sloppily but at some point, when you finaly decide that you need to work the kinks out of that technique, you're going to slow down...unconciously but you WILL slow down...so you can think, and when you finaly work out all the kinks and have decided to speed back up you'll have to re-learn how to do the full speed technique all over again since what you'll be doing now is different from what you did.


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Kelly Christiansen

A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 12-22-2000, 11:08 AM   #17
BC
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Re: Speed in Training

Quote:
Richard Harnack wrote:
Training movement slowly is appropriate when first learning the technique. At some point you have practiced the movement enough at one speed, and need to pick up the pace of training. Despite many people believing it, Aikido is not Tai Chi, neither does Aikido have much in common with Tai Chi. Tai Chi when performed at full speed is usually described as "combat Tai Chi", better known as the underlying art of Kung Fu.

Aikido is as graceful as ballet, but this does not mean that Aikido is ballet.

It is important in teaching that when we draw comparison between Aikido and other activities, that we remind our students and ourselves that we are doing so to call attention to a particular element of Aikido, and, that we are not saying Aikido is the same as the other art.

Proper training includes patience in learning and practicing a move, it also involves developing speed and facility with the movement, and, ultimately "understanding" the move.
I never meant to infer that taijiquan and aikido were the same, and I'm sorry if you thought that. I only meant to point out that training slowly or at less than full speed in practicing techniques in any martial art helps to develop precision, and used a reference to tai chi as an example of that practice taken to a certain extreme.

By the way, taijiquan and aikido DO have a lot in common. They are both martial arts and the human body mechanics are the same, no matter what martial art you practice. And taijiquan practiced at full speed is not "combat tai chi," it is simply taijiquan. Just as aikido practiced at full speed is not "combat aikido." Regards.

Robert Cronin
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Old 12-22-2000, 12:11 PM   #18
Russ
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In having a solid connection with uke proper speed should take care of itself. The speed of the application of technique will be dependant on the energy provided by uke.

My teacher often reminds us "Don't do the technique by yourself..." ie. too fast, or rather, so fast you lose connection with uke.

Speed,I would imagine, comes down to practising with a partner who is sufficiently advanced to offer you the kind of energy that decrees you move quickly. This kind of training is no more or less important than training with the total newbie and having to move in slo-mo, it's just different.

Both of these kinds of training can help you gain a proper grounding in basic movement.

Merry Christmas all,

Russ
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Old 12-25-2000, 05:33 PM   #19
TheProdigy
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Lightbulb

Actually the author is right!

I've read through many of the responses and several who claim the author is wrong, but they dont take his idea when showing that he's wrong. What's in bold reflected upon his initial statement...

"The learner should be expected to build at the same pace as an experienced developer."

Within the software engineering this means cramming the 5 tests with errors into a short time period so that they are forced to learn it quicker... Within aikido the pace of an "experienced developer" (a shodan) is often slow. That is the so-called fast pace that a learner should be expected to learn at.

To get the quality in aikido later, use that same speed as those experienced in the art. In aikido, this is typically slower. So "if you get speed now you can get quality later". When you look at experienced aikidoka, they typically move slower in training... so slowness is the speed which will obtain quality later.

Perhaps I'm playing with the words a bit, but to me, I'm just stating what they mean.

Jason Hobbs
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Old 12-26-2000, 07:58 PM   #20
Erik
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A few more thoughts.

Senior folks do not work more slowly than beginners. That is a misstatement and probably due to how I presented my original post (badly). If you don't believe me do the following test:

Take two 6th kyu's and have them do a specified technique for a certain amount of time. Then take 2 yudansha and repeat the process. The yudansha will absolutely complete more repetitions than the 6th kyu's assuming they are familiar with the technique. I predict it will be a minimum of 2 or 3 to 1.

The reason isn't speed of execution (although it would be a factor), it's economy of execution. Beginner's spend a lot of time messing things up, asking for help, talking to each other trying to figure things out, trying to center themselves, stumbling back up from a fall, catching their breath, whereas the more senior folks just work on the technique and because they need less help they can get in more reps. My practice, in the context of technique can be brought to a crawl if I happen to draw a beginner (please no lecture's on my spiritual impurity). I can spend 30 seconds throwing and 3 minutes explaining/showing.

Now that I've thought about it, I think the author's contention is that you put beginner's on the same work load as a more advanced person. However, doing the same work will take them longer, and it will be less accurate, hence, beginners would have to stay after class, work at home or take special training to get the necessary repetitions. Some of us do these things (or did) but the reality is that most won't because of perfectly valid reasons like they want to have a family-life or something.

Therefore, I believe the author is correct on speed then quality. Beginners don't have quality, with the occasional exception, but if you can't get a beginner past the initial phase of stumbling around for 20 seconds or whatever per technique you will never get them to the point where quality comes into play. They will never get the needed repetitions, unless, they work extra time. Perfect quality isn't, because nothing ever gets done. Plus, making mistakes counts for a lot in learning.

In regards to speed training. Anyone who has played competitive sports has had the experience of going up a level and having a "holy shit, these guys are fast, strong and way better" revelation. It can be a serious eye-opener. To me, this type of experience makes me seriously doubt the concept of always training slowly. I think the first time you are confronted with speed you will be tweaked by the speed if you've never seen it before. You need to work with something to learn it and speed is no different.

Finally, I think the author is talking about something that most of us don't want. I'm not prepared to give my life to a company and I don't think most people should give their life to Aikido either. There is something to be said for balance and enjoying a good sunset or sunrise.
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Old 12-28-2000, 11:22 AM   #21
Richard Harnack
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Talking Re: Aikido, Dai Qi, etc...

[quote]BC wrote:
Quote:
[i]
I never meant to infer that taijiquan and aikido were the same, and I'm sorry if you thought that. I only meant to point out that training slowly or at less than full speed in practicing techniques in any martial art helps to develop precision, and used a reference to tai chi as an example of that practice taken to a certain extreme.

By the way, taijiquan and aikido DO have a lot in common. They are both martial arts and the human body mechanics are the same, no matter what martial art you practice. And taijiquan practiced at full speed is not "combat tai chi," it is simply taijiquan. Just as aikido practiced at full speed is not "combat aikido." Regards.
BC -
Before we bounce back an forth explaining and apologizing, to quote deceased president Richard M. Nixon, "Let me say this about that..."

Over the past several years I have noticed several instructors in the St Louis area who have become enamored of Dai Qi. While I do not fault them for their interest, I do find that they have begun to attempt to forcibly connect Dai Qi and Aikido.

Here there are persons who teach Dai Qi as both an "exercise form" and "combat form", hence my source for "combat dai qi" comes from them. Whether or not this is promotional hyperbole on their part is beyond my interest.

While all physical activities do share the common ground of the human body and therefore, mechanics being mechanics, will eventually have points of comparison, there are strong disimilarities between Dai Qi, Aikido, Kung Fu, Shotokan, ballet, etc.

Each discipline has its' own rationale and mode of training distinct from the others. Hence my statement that they are not the same.

I suppose I am overly sensitive to this because of my experience here. There is a point where the comparisons between different arts and different styles within the same art can create greater misunderstanding and confusion.

From my perspective Aikido is unique in both its' training, techniques and underlying philosophy. Morihei Ueshiba was distinct and different from all who preceded him. His historical roots can be traced, but his intrinsic revelations which led him to transform himself and his training remain uniquely his.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 12-28-2000, 04:16 PM   #22
Kenn
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Richard,

I would simply like to state the following. I have been a student of Tai Chi Chu'an for three years..(I know not a very long time), and have begun Training in Aikido for about 4 months now.

Part of what lead me to study Aikido is it's similarity in philosophy and style to Tai Chi Chu'an.

Although, obviously, there are differences....thus the two different arts....the similarities are many. The basic martial philosophy of push when pulled pull when pushed...use your "opponent's" energy against him..etc.

Just my thoughts for what they're worth.

Ken

Kenn

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