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Old 11-15-2003, 06:22 PM   #1
Megan L'Hommedieu
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Question Natural ability w/ ki?

I'm a new (not even white belt) member of my local aikido dojo. I have heard a lot about ki, and was wondering if it is possible for someone to have a natural ability with it? There is a girl in my dojo who has a really easy time with all the techniques and moves who is also a beginner. She has an almost uncanny ability to percieve peoples presence and their emotions. Is it just good body-language reading skills, or could it be ki?

Training with purpose,
Megan

~Niquia~
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Old 11-15-2003, 07:03 PM   #2
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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She might just be athletic/talented? Or perhaps she studied another martial art (even a different style of aikido? I don't know much about ki myself, so I'm not one to discuss that possibility. (Though I'd be curious to hear 'ki theory' on that matter.)

That, or maybe she's a killer ninja! Or robot! Or robot ninja! You have to watch out for those robot ninjas. They're uncanny.
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Old 11-15-2003, 08:24 PM   #3
Thalib
 
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Yes, Megan-san, it is the way it should be. Ki is supposed to be natural for everyone.

For most of us, we have forgotten all about Ki. We are not learning anything new. We are all learning to remember.

Our modern lives have made us forgot about the basics of life. There are fortunate ones are the ones who still remember deep in their mind without even realizing it.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 11-15-2003, 11:01 PM   #4
antdigoh
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every movement or effort we do, ki is always involved, we're not just aware of it maybe. especially in breathing ki is flowing in and out, we absorbed, assimilate and relese ki unknowingly or unmindfully. but it's a natural system of our being...

anton
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Old 11-15-2003, 11:42 PM   #5
Thalib
 
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Nicely put Antonio-san.

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Old 11-16-2003, 10:15 AM   #6
PhilJ
 
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LOL Paul, very funny, reminds me of one of our Bujinkan locals.

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
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Old 11-16-2003, 10:29 AM   #7
Atomicpenguin
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I'm curious as to how exactly you're defining ki.There are a lot of different interpretations. I've heard everything from the idea that it's the supernatural string that binds the universe and empowers us to the idea that it's nothing more than a model that helps to bring into sync the required physicality for the human body. Irregardless of where you fall on the continuum, it seems apparant to me that different people will be able to grasp the idea or harmonize themselves with the current at different skill levels, just inherently. For some reason the question, "Do people have natural ki ability," just strikes me really wierdly. Do people have natural quilting ability? Do people have natural Christian/Muslim/Zen ability? Do people have natural cat petting ability? Each of these sounds comparably wierd to me. Some people, at their start will have more that they put into quilting, some, by their natures will be better Christians/Muslims/or practioners of Zen and some will at their onset be able to pet cats a little better than other people.

Maybe it's because I tend to think of it in terms of variant initial levels rather than the dichotomous answer that seems required to the question. That is, the question seems to prompt: Yes there are some people who have the ki gene turned on and some who don't or no there is no such thing as a ki gene. I think the answer is more like, some have a gene that puts them at various levels of ability to comprehend ki just as some have a genetic affinity for weight gain or running or whatever.

I guess that's my long-winded way of saying yeah, sort of, to your question.
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Old 11-16-2003, 11:43 PM   #8
sanosuke
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Quote:
Antonino Digohermano (antdigoh) wrote:
every movement or effort we do, ki is always involved, we're not just aware of it maybe. especially in breathing ki is flowing in and out, we absorbed, assimilate and relese ki unknowingly or unmindfully. but it's a natural system of our being...
agree completely, everybody have ki within them, only that we don't realize it until we use it whether we intend it or not. I've heard stories such as people can run faster when they get chased by a dog, eventhough they are slow runner, or a story when people can suddenly climb high wall when they been chased and cornered. People from both stories didn't realize what they do and they just realize "how can i did such thing?" after they got away from danger. In my understanding, it is their ki that protect them. Their survival instict triggered it to come out and help them, only that they didn't realize. Here in aikido we are (at least what i believe) trained to realize, know, and blend with our ki, for ki is also part of us.
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Old 11-17-2003, 01:15 PM   #9
Eric Joyce
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Reality check

I have read these posts and have been on this forum for awhile and I do respect the opinions of others here on there definition of ki. If you define key as energy, life force, whatever...you may have some valid reasoning on your definition of ki. I for one have never in my life experienced ki in techniques and I have been doing this art and others for over 6 years. If what you are referring to is the ability to blend with an attack and redirect it...lets call it physics, timing, etc. I think some newbies that start have this image of energy flowing through our bodies that make the techniques work or that some aikidoka have this insight into others that has something to do with ki. Not poking fun or demeaning anyone, but I thought the same thing when I started. But as time went on, I began to understand. From a pragmatic point of view, physics, timing, kuzushi, maai, etc. is what you truly witness, not something magical like ki. Just my opinion here, but I am trying to be practical. No doubt I will be interpreted as a heretic here.

Eric Joyce
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Old 11-17-2003, 03:00 PM   #10
Thalib
 
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6 years... that's not a long time. People go for over like 20-30 years being skeptic of or not understanding Ki. I have been in Aikido for over 5 years, and I'm practically a newbie.

My sensei went for over 10 years being a skeptic. He believed that everything was technical. Until one experience turned him around. He went from a Steven-Seagal-Kick-Ass-I'll-Break-Your-Arm-Movie-Dou to uh... I don't know how to describe it now. Basically he has put back Ki in Aiki in everything he is teaching us now.

Is Ki only about blending, ma-ai, kuzushi, or other technical aspects? No.

Is Ki magic? Definitely not.

Is Ki natural? Yes, not only that it is natural, it is nature.

Could Ki be explained by science? Yes, it could, but our science right now are bounded only to our perception of the ability to manipulate 3 dimensions. We can't even manipulate the so called 4th dimension, time. As we speak scientists are trying to find the answer to the 10 dimensional hyperspace theory (or was it 11 or 12?). That theory will lead to "the string theory", which is the creation myth itself.

If the hyperspace theory is proven, the perceived 4 fundamental forces (gravity, electromagnetic, weak nuclear, and strong nuclear) will lose its place as being fundamental. The theory will prove that these forces are a result of other events occuring in the higher dimensions, unperceivable by us. So, why not Ki?

Basically science is catching up, but it is always one step behind. Some things have to be taken up with faith, but not blind faith. One has to search for it, not from some doctrine. It is the journey that matters. It is the path we take not the destination we are reaching.

It is OK being a skeptic. As long as you haven't felt it yet, I can't see how you could believe. Me, on the other hand have felt what it is. There's no point of me arguing any further because I don't know how to explain it. I could only feel it.

Last edited by Thalib : 11-17-2003 at 03:04 PM.

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Old 11-17-2003, 03:27 PM   #11
Eric Joyce
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I think from what I read from the first post on this topic, the person was referring to the ki of the techniques (effortless, blending, natural,etc) correct?

All I am saying is that I don't think that it is ki necessarilly, but simple biomechanics.

Is ki all about maai, blending with attacks, etc., not necessarily if you are looking at a much broader philosopical picture, but from a pragmatic point of view, my own rather, I think that the issue of having this ki in the techniques or having ki give us insight all sounds a little silly. I think that consistant and deligent training is what gives us that natural ability the same way it looked so natural for Michael Jordan when he played basketball. Was it ki for him? Hmmm, now there's a question.

Again this is just an opinion and observation. Maybe in time I will be wrong.

Eric Joyce
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Old 11-17-2003, 08:29 PM   #12
Pretoriano
 
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Post

Doing physical education at high school some more 20 years a go, we were playing soccer at a big camp, one classmate was signed up with the State Soccer Team on his very first class as a doorman!

The Brazilian coach Mr. Barboza who trainned for a while with one of the best of all time Pelé, saw the guy performance and told us that such naturality and acertiveness were "only" achieved after many years of hard trainning,

moreover he have to quit fooling around and train for the big fields.

This guy for somehow knew how to express his "ki" and to focus (channel) up on diverse activities, soon, all diferent trainers wanted to have it with them, but the guy not only wasnt interested, he never studied, used to throw chalks to classmates, smoked hidding at the buses and scapped from the school with girls, was a case, he died several years later.

This is Natural ability w Ki, this guy discovered his strenght at early age, but this without the necessary parallel personality proper development surely caused

that disbalance.

Pretoriano
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Old 11-17-2003, 11:07 PM   #13
Thalib
 
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Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote:
I think that consistant and deligent training is what gives us that natural ability the same way it looked so natural for Michael Jordan when he played basketball. Was it ki for him? Hmmm, now there's a question.
Yes, Joyce-san, it is "Ki".

Michael Jordan's ability to play well is his "Ki".

Albert Einstein's intelligence is his "Ki".

Rodman's bad temper is his bad "Ki".

And, Joyce-san, biomechanics are far from simple. There are many known and unknown parameters in there to make it simple. "Ki" is actually a simpler way to explain things.

The reason people are skeptic or do not understand these eastern principles is that because it is too simple of a concept to be accepted. Humans love to complicate matters.

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Old 11-18-2003, 12:00 AM   #14
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
If the hyperspace theory is proven, the perceived 4 fundamental forces (gravity, electromagnetic, weak nuclear, and strong nuclear) will lose its place as being fundamental. The theory will prove that these forces are a result of other events occuring in the higher dimensions, unperceivable by us. So, why not Ki?
On the other hand, why not Voodoo? Just because something is not completely explained doesn't mean that the first explanation to hand will be correct.

FWIW, Yukiyoshi Sagawa, who performed what can only be classed as "magic Ki" feats on a scale quite possibly unmatched by even Morihei Ueshiba, always steadfastly maintained that said feats were purely physics.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-18-2003, 01:00 AM   #15
PeterR
 
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Personally speaking, having a thing for roast chicken, I much prefer Voodoo.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-18-2003, 04:29 AM   #16
WylMorris
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Quote:
Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
Is Ki magic? Definitely not.
Let me say first that I have a background in magick, which predates my involvement in Aikido and currently practice both, and I've found that the feelings of using Ki and using Magick are the same thing.

I've also found that since I've started doing Aikido my magick has become more powerful and since i saw the connection my Ki has become stronger. *cue twilight zone theme*

Incidentaly, did anyone catch that Discovery Channel doco. where they found Ki as heat oving through the body of some one practicing with it?

BadgerBadgerBadgerBadgerBadgerBadgerBadger Badger
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Old 11-18-2003, 07:34 AM   #17
drDalek
 
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Ki and magic and whatnot are such loaded terms that you cannot possibly seriously believe in either as some mystical stand-alone force or energy.

Ki is a conmbination of concepts, its balance, body alignment, reading body language, breath control, correct relaxation, attitude, mindset and a whole bunch of stuff I probably forgot about but most importantly, its what you get when you do all these things at the same time.

Maybe your friend is more relaxed than you, maybe she has a better posture which makes it easier for her to move and breath correctly, you would not be able to tell yet, because you have not been doing it long enough.

But Ki? as in dragonballZ style fireballs and supersonic kicks? please.
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Old 11-18-2003, 09:10 AM   #18
Thalib
 
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Exactly Li-san, why not Voodoo?

Just because something is unexplainable does not mean it doesn't exist.

If you want "Ki" explained, try picking up a book by Nishino Kouzou, "ki no ogi". Too bad it's only in Japanese. My Japanese is pretty bad, but I was able to pick up a few things in it while I was browsing through it in the bookstore. Nishino actually explains "Ki" in scientific terms. He talks about biology and physics in it.

If Nishino Kouzou releases the book in english, I'll definitely pick it up.

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Old 11-18-2003, 11:30 AM   #19
indomaresa
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What's the english translation for "ki"?. Force? Power? Energy? Language is probably the problem here.

Energy comes in many forms and measurement. But humans have yet to figure HOW MANY forms and measurement exactly.

Maybe the people who thinks ki is a force to be used like dragonballZ is kidding themselves.

Maybe not. This is just a forum anyway. Can't prove anything here. Can't convince people on the other side of the globe either.

I'm just going to keep learning to use my supposedly non-existent powers of ki quietly until I can take over the world. Beware!

mwahaha

Last edited by indomaresa : 11-18-2003 at 11:32 AM.

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Old 11-18-2003, 11:41 AM   #20
akiy
 
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Quote:
Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
What's the english translation for "ki"?. Force? Power? Energy? Language is probably the problem here.
I guess the problem here is that we Japanese do not use the term "ki" in isolation in our everyday speech; rather, it's very much used in phrases such as those found in the following page:

http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html

I hope you'll be able to get a "feel" for how we Japanese use the term from the above page.

As an aside, the following pages presents phrases where the character "ai" is used:

http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ai_phrases.html

Hope that helps!

-- Jun

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Old 12-01-2003, 12:40 PM   #21
AsimHanif
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Megan,

obviously everyone has their own concept of what "ki" is. But in answer to your question, I personally have experienced people with no budo background at all and but had a very high level of energy that could be felt. They may not know the techniques but they have the feel.

Practitioners of Reiki or Kiatsu have warm hands and can transmit their energy to your body to heal affected areas. So that is one example of what I know as ki. Also I have felt very strong and precise technique and I have felt ki. To me there is a difference. If you look at what Chen Man Cheng (an extreme example) or others were able to do that could be called ki. When you hear accounts of a diminutive person lifting a car off of them (without a pause) - to me that is ki.

But I wouldn't get discouraged because strong ki and technique can be gained through consistent practice. Also some people start off strong and then tail off later and for some it is the reverse. So I wouldn't compare myself or my progress to anyone. I just put a penny in the bank each day!
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