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Old 11-18-2003, 06:30 AM   #76
rachmass
Dojo: Aikido of Cincinnati/Huron Valley Aikikai
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Thanks Amelia!

Bruce wrote:
Quote:
I would love to take a mini-poll to see how many yudansha actually do randori (multiple attackers) on a regular basis. I know for a fact most do it once for their test and a few times before the test - that's it (in some dojos I have been in, not all).
Actually, I know quite a few dojos that work on randori a lot. I have a friend whose dojo does randori once a week in advanced class. In my dojo we do juyi waza 3-4 times a week, and will start working on randori weekly once I've got a couple of 3rd kyus (the bulk of my students are 5th kyu or unranked).

My old teacher worked on randori once every couple of years, and consequently whenever he did, people would get hurt. People got hurt because they were so nervous and attacked so eratically. Bloody noses, black eyes, torn muscles; scary stuff. He didn't like to work on randori because he felt if you knew your basics thoroughly, that the randori would just come. It doesn't in my experience. Juyi waza is a great way to build up to it in a less frightening and more controlled manner.

So, anyway, to your poll; I do juyi waza 3-4 times a week now, and I'll do randori whenever I go to visit my friends dojo.

Amelia wrote:
Quote:
Today, my opinion of rank is that it's a great way of keeping new, athletically talented students with over-blown egos from assuming they are the best aikidoka around. They might assume it, but they still (theoretically) need to stick it out and pass the milestones.
oh so right you are!!
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Old 11-18-2003, 07:00 AM   #77
justinm
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Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Justin-I'm surprised you were able to test without the fees. Most organizations require member dojos to only test under their auspices-i.e., can't issue rank without the fees and testing must be done under organizational rules. So, if your sensei is a member of the organization and is not authorized to issue rank certicates then you could have a problem with validating your rank certificate.
It may be a special case - my sensei is the head of the organisation which is registered with the IYAF and he is authorised to grade under the IYAF. He issues organisation certificates, and I paid the (small) grading fee my organisation requires. However there is a larger fee due to the IYAF if I want to have a IYAF certificate that is only available from Hombu. As far as my organisation is concerned, I am nidan and a dojo instructor. However my grade is not registered with Hombu - to do this I must pay for a Hombu certificate. So if anyone were to check with Hombu, I'd be registered as Shodan.

Not sure how this works in other organisations - for instance Aikikai? Do all dan grades have to send money to aikikai hombu for their grade to be registered there, and if not are they still valid grades if issued by the local shihan?

Justin
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Old 11-18-2003, 07:12 AM   #78
MaylandL
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Quote:
Rachel Massey (rachmass) wrote:
...

My old teacher worked on randori once every couple of years, and consequently whenever he did, people would get hurt. People got hurt because they were so nervous and attacked so eratically. Bloody noses, black eyes, torn muscles; scary stuff.

...


That's a real surprise. We do randori occassionally but with experienced students - third kyu and above. By occassionally I mean once a month. Sensei starts us off by demonstrating what key principle or lesson he would like us to focus on. To my knowledge, no one's ever been hurt to the same extent that you've mentioned.
Quote:
Rachel Massey (rachmass) wrote:
...He didn't like to work on randori because he felt if you knew your basics thoroughly, that the randori would just come. It doesn't in my experience. Juyi waza is a great way to build up to it in a less frightening and more controlled manner.

...
I think you need to be an experience aikidoka to do randori (at least 2 years of consistent and regular training). I agree that Juyi Waza is an excellent learning environment and Sensei uses that at the end of the class sometimes to pull together the key lessons he has illustrated during the class.

Just on a side note, doing randori, has anyone had this particular experience. I've noticed that when I am doing randori, its more about movement, position and posture than doing techniques. The techniques become very much secondary because there is just so little time to do a technique before the next attack is on you. I find myself just moving, being in the spaces where ukes are not and keeping my posture. In this way I find myself doing a whole bunch of "stuff" that might be termed kokyunage or kokyunage type "techniques".

Anyone have any comments?

Mayland
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Old 11-18-2003, 07:25 AM   #79
Nafis Zahir
 
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Hey Everyone! Why can't you be tested and then told you are ready to move on to the next level or not be told but just instructed in higher echelon techniques without be ranked? It wouldn't diminish your ability or your understanding. If you really love the art, why do you have to get rank or look forward to it in order to get motivated or strive harder? Do you believe if there was no ranking system that there would be nothing to gain? If so, then you've fallen victim to the system!

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Old 11-18-2003, 07:38 AM   #80
happysod
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Hi Nafis, "just instructed in higher echelon techniques without be ranked" - you're basically taking the same route the Chinese army took rather than getting rid of rank here (no outward displays of rank, but look at all my pens...). If you truely want a rankless dojo, everyone would have to be taught the same at the same time, or even better, everyone teaches...

As for falling for the system, a trifle harsh here I think, I look at it more as common courtesy. It's not my association, so I'll play by their rules as long as as it suits me. What my rank means is really up to them, I just like aikido.
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Old 11-18-2003, 07:43 AM   #81
paw
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Quote:
Why can't you be tested and then told you are ready to move on to the next level or not be told but just instructed in higher echelon techniques without be ranked?
No reason absolute reason why not. However, since the kyu/dan ranking system is so common in aikido that would be somewhat irregular.

I suspect that in the long run, those without rank would have a difficult time having students attend their dojo, attend their seminars, purchase their books or instructional videos, advance "politically" in their aikido organization or be considered legit by the community at large.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-18-2003, 08:04 AM   #82
Chuck Clark
 
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Rank surely does "matter", if it didn't, this powerful discussion wouldn't be happening.

Great stuff, thanks for all the different viewpoints.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 11-18-2003, 09:34 AM   #83
kung fu hamster
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I'm trying to imagine how things were before the current testing system made martial arts accessible to people at large. Before the current situation, you had to get an introduction and travel to the teacher, you had to jump through hoops to be accepted as his student and be allowed to be humbly shown whatever aspects of that art that he was willing to show you. He didn't show it to just anybody, and not lightly, he looked for loyalty and commitment. I've noticed that by the time 3rd kyu rank rolls around, at least 70% of the beginners have dropped out. It that because they decided they didn't like it or what? If we didn't have ranking, how could we tell just on physical ability who is committed to the art of aikido, enough to really stick it out? In the ‘before' years, the martial arts teacher could personally monitor the development of his all students and see for himself how committed and loyal they were, if there were transgressions I'm sure he didn't hesitate to boot them out of there. Only a chosen few were shown the highest aspects of the art and ‘secret' techniques handed down through generations, not an across-the-board transmission such as people seem to expect now. There was documentation involved, something formal which stated that such-and-such person was now at whatever level of attainment in the art that the sensei decreed. It's a privilege to be able to train in aikido, a privilege made possible to huge numbers of people by the introduction of the current ranking/documentation system. If you are accepted by your sensei as his/her student, the old conditions haven't changed that much, they still look for loyalty and commitment to the art, and at least a ‘groping in the direction' of high standards, and if you aren't an ‘accepted' student of said teacher, he is by no means obligated to show you the more advanced aspects of his art, even if you did pay the same fee for the seminar or exposition (or whatever) as his own students. Don't get me wrong, if a qualified sensei wants to give a student rank without testing and he feels confident that he knows the student well enough to do so, that's his prerogative and I have nothing to say about it. That's great that the student had that close enough of a relationship to the teacher that he could do that. But for the masses, people who are not fortunate enough to have that day-to-day contact or even sporadic contact, the ranking system (flawed though it may be) does tend to weed out the uncommitted students. It's a long process, a long road, and teachers can't afford to waste their time and substance on people who can't be committed, so I feel the testing process at least is an indicator of who made it through the gauntlet and who didn't. If you don't have rank but still have ability, that's great, it doesn't matter to you after all. But to a teacher, it may make a difference, I don't know. Some teacher's just won't work with junior students on advanced techniques, why should they reveal their good stuff to someone they may not consider ‘worthy'? My teachers teach advanced techniques to all the students, we're so lucky that way, I've known even white belts to have had a chance to do randori practice (half speed or even slower if necessary, just so they can learn to move). When testing time rolls around, he says his classes are like gardens, and testing time is when he gets a chance to look at the prospective ‘harvest' and see how the seeds he planted are doing. Anyway, these are just my thoughts, rambling and disjointed, but intended to help people appreciate (I hope) what the ranking system has done for aikido. If I'm wrong on any of these points, I'm sure people won't hesitate to let me know!

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Old 11-18-2003, 12:11 PM   #84
paw
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Linda,
Quote:
If I'm wrong on any of these points, I'm sure people won't hesitate to let me know!
Well, since you asked.....
Quote:
I'm trying to imagine how things were before the current testing system made martial arts accessible to people at large.
Unless I'm mistaken, rank was Kano's creation. As Kano was an educator, it would seem there were reasons as to why he would not only establish rank, but group techniques in the manner that he did. In short, it was for the benefit of the student so the entire art could be learned in an efficient manner.
Quote:
If we didn't have ranking, how could we tell just on physical ability who is committed to the art of aikido, enough to really stick it out?
I don't see how higher rank indicates a higher level of committment. I personally know a number of people who were uncoordinated, had little free time, lacked money for training, or could not make most training times, yet nevertheless trained as often as they could come hell or high-water. They were often had a relatively low rank compared to others who did not have such obsticals. They were certainly not less committed.
Quote:
In the ‘before' years, the martial arts teacher could personally monitor the development of his all students and see for himself how committed and loyal they were, if there were transgressions I'm sure he didn't hesitate to boot them out of there.
Instructors now should do the same thing. If they do not, I certainly won't train with them. Loyalty goes both ways in my book.
Quote:
If you are accepted by your sensei as his/her student, the old conditions haven't changed that much, they still look for loyalty and commitment to the art, and at least a ‘groping in the direction' of high standards, and if you aren't an ‘accepted' student of said teacher, he is by no means obligated to show you the more advanced aspects of his art, even if you did pay the same fee for the seminar or exposition (or whatever) as his own students
The worst thing one can say about a bjj instructor, worse even than they are abusive, is that they "hold back". That is to say they deliberately choose not to show all aspects of the art. Loyalty and committment go both ways. If an instructor ever "holds back" from me, I will not give them my loyalty or my money. An instructor is still flesh and blood, not an exaulted entity, there's no reason to treat them as such.
Quote:
But for the masses, people who are not fortunate enough to have that day-to-day contact or even sporadic contact, the ranking system (flawed though it may be) does tend to weed out the uncommitted students. It's a long process, a long road, and teachers can't afford to waste their time and substance on people who can't be committed, so I feel the testing process at least is an indicator of who made it through the gauntlet and who didn't.
Again, I submit there is no relationship between rank and committment. Further, you seem to be suggesting that instructors only have an obligation to the talented and the gifted....or those willing to submit entirely to the beliefs of the instructor. I'm not sure either is healthy.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-18-2003, 02:56 PM   #85
kung fu hamster
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Hi Paul,

Yes, I do remember reading somewhere that Kano sensei developed the ranking system, I was talking ‘before' in the sense of a couple hundred years ago or even further back. In fact, in thinking about what I posted I do agree with you that rank and commitment are not always related, I guess I was talking more generally from the standpoint that someone could look at a nidan or sandan and infer that there had been some certain level of commitment to training, enough to get to this point anyway, as opposed to the junior kyu ranks. I certainly think there are blackbelts who simply quit after they get the rank, so yes, higher rank and commitment don't go hand in hand as I hastily wrote. If you look at many people who are my junior in rank at our dojo, their aikido technique and ukemi is far superior to mine, they may show a greater level of commitment than me, yeah, you're right there, rank and level of commitment may not always correspond, but generally speaking I think that I am going to get a level of aikido instruction from a yondan that I wouldn't expect from a shodan. Could be an erroneous expectation, like you said, I'm not exactly talking in absolutes here.

"The worst thing one can say about a bjj instructor, worse even than they are abusive, is that they "hold back". That is to say they deliberately choose not to show all aspects of the art. Loyalty and committment go both ways. If an instructor ever "holds back" from me, I will not give them my loyalty or my money. An instructor is still flesh and blood, not an exaulted entity, there's no reason to treat them as such."

Well ok, if you say so, but even though a teacher may give the students all he's got, I'm pretty sure a regular student does not get the same level of instruction that the uchi deshi's are getting. I'm not resentful about it, I understand in my own limited way, why a teacher structures things that way, and if a student didn't offer that level of commitment to the teacher, why should the student expect that level of commitment from the teacher?

"Further, you seem to be suggesting that instructors only have an obligation to the talented and the gifted....or those willing to submit entirely to the beliefs of the instructor. I'm not sure either is healthy."

I don't think teachers have obligations only to the talented and the gifted, I was thinking more along the lines of ‘committed and loyal to the art', as in possible inheritors of the system that the teacher is trying to impart, hopefully for future generations to enjoy and improve on. Why does a teacher teach? Just to make money? Some do. Ego? There's some of that too. I'm very thankful that the Ueshiba family decided to spread aikido to the West, if it weren't for the teaching system that was used I'm not so sure I would be able to train today with the teachers that I have. My teacher explained about the word ‘keiko' -- the kanji have some meaning of reflections of the past in the sense that we practice today with the same spirit, intensity, integrity, etc. that practitioners did hundreds of years ago (or whatever time frame, I hope you can tell what I'm saying). I realize that I speak from my point of view with the ‘ideal' situation I have, I do understand that there are some teachers out there who charge inordinate amounts of money and some who are not entirely on the up-and-up, in such case, where does one point the finger? Sometimes even a great teacher is mistaken too, they are human, if a student they promote has character flaws that they overlooked, it isn't always a problem of the ranking system. It takes a long time to get to know someone and some of the ways how they are (traits), that's what I ultimately think. Anyway, these are just more ramblings, thinking out loud. A couple of months ago my teacher said to me (really harshly!), "Linda, I know you have a lot on your mind, but do you have to VOMIT it all over everybody else?!" Don't you pity my poor teacher?


Last edited by kung fu hamster : 11-18-2003 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 11-18-2003, 04:12 PM   #86
Kensho Furuya
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I hate to respond in this segment but I have been following it and so finally I thought I would ad my opinion for what it's worth (not much!) with the hopes that I don't get into too much trouble here.

First of all, I should like to say that I don't like to emphasize rank or acquiring rank in my dojo and teach the attitude that it comes when it comes or when you are ready. Rank obsessed students generally turn me off.

In an ideal world, we could probably do without ranks. Many years ago, about 30-35 years ago, we knew each other and all the teachers around and most all of the black belts. We also knew what everyone taught, weak and strong points, relaxed or intense classes, weapons or no, etc., so it was easy to evauate a student just by hearing the name of his teacher.

Nowadays, there are so many groups and so many teachers and students moving around that one cannot possible keep track of everyone. Nowadays, when a student visits and I ask the name of his dojo or teacher - it is usually someone I never heard of before - this is common today, but not like many years ago.

I think we have to realize that rank is very subjective and is really a matter between the student and his teacher. It is much like a college degree - in some ways, as many argue in this thread, that it may be useless in the real world, but, at the same time, we hope that our dentist or neuro-surgeon or car repair man has some kind of credentials from somewhere to indicate that he has had some kind of training. I heard that even hair dressers and gardeners need credentials nowadays because of all the chemicals they use. Even a barber has some credentials to hang on his wall to indicate that he has had some training - whether, in your own opinion, he is good or not.

Although one should get a good idea of what level a person is at just by the way he moves and executes the techniques, often this is not the case. I have seen many students come to the dojo and have wondered about their rank or how they received their ranking. . . .

I once studied under a very famous concert pianist who was trained in Europe and had performed all over the world. However when she played, it was not very good and she only taught young people like me at the time to make a modest living for herself. In her senior years, she was suffering from severe arthiritis in her fingers - a condition quite beyond her control. She was a totally qualified and experienced artist of great prestige. In this case, I relied on her experience and mastery, not her immediate or present ability. . . . . I think this case can apply to many senior instructors - you body doesn't function the same when your are 20 and when you are 60 - at least not mine. . . .

Finally, I have seen very high ranking, skillful instructors who do not make good teachers. And I have seen some 1st Dan assistants who are not well-experienced in technique but know how to handle and deal with people and can communicate ideas very well. It is not a case of rank here and not even skill -

Each teacher and organization has different goals and standards - some are much lower or much higher than others. . . . . . some are much tougher and some more relaxed. Some organizations emphasize "killer" type Aikido which is strong and brutal. Some teachers emphasize a more "personal development" approach. Who can say which is better? Again, it depends on the teacher and student. . . . .

At least, if they say they have a rank from Aikikai, it is easy to verify. I have had 5th Dan and even one 7th Dan whose rank could not be verified - I had to verify it because I thought their level of training and expertise was questionable. In this case, a verifiable Dan grade is necessary, especially when they request to teach . . . . . . There was a person who used my name without my permission and was going around in another country giving seminars and issuing dan grades but had no experience at all. Somehow he was able to fool hundreds of black belts, teachers and students that he was a 6th Dan black belt claiming to be my student. . . . . . very troublesome and very dangerous and very terrible. Very embarrassing for me when a magazine called me to ask me questions about this "famous" teacher who used to be my student. Fortunately I can remember every black belt I have ever trained over the last 40 years. . . . .

I think many people chatting here are, for the most part, "students" of Aikido. I think as the years go by and one becomes a teacher, you will find that rank is important for yourself - as you represent the prestige and authority of your organization and have a position as teacher. At the same time, you will find it important for your students as well to show that you approve of their progress and recognize their hard work, efforts and support of your dojo over the years.

I once had a student, 73 years old, who came into my dojo and said that he only wanted to practice mildly at the side of the mat for medical and health purposes, he said he could not keep up with the normal students nor was he interested in rank at all. . . . . He came everyday for several years and I was happy that his physical condition improved immensely. One day, a visiting teacher came and saw him and asked what rank he was - because he was only wearing a white belt. I told him "3rd kyu" which he was. He was immediately promoted to 2nd Dan! I was so surprised!

Even for the most diligent and committed of students, it will be hard to practice for 20, 30, 40 years without any type of recognization at all. . . . . It can also be difficult to say, "I have been practicing for 30 years and I am a 6th kyu" - hahahaah! (sorry, just kidding here). But eventually, even if you are only a student, you will take on some teaching, guidance or management duties in your dojo. The rank creates a heirarchy - which is not good, but it also creates an order within the dojo. My students in my own dojo know who to turn to for any problem if they don't want to approach me directly because assistant instructors, senior advisors are clearly designated. . . . Also, the ranks of the assistant instructors give new students an approachable ideal or goal to work for and or least aspire to. . . In this sense, rank has a positive energy to encourage new students.

As a priest, I carry a blood-line - it is a piece of paper written to me by my teacher and it is a lineage which show me as a student of my teacher with all the names of his teachers going back to the Buddha himself. Wherever I go, whether I look or act like a priest or not, this is my proof that I am a priest and that I am my teacher's student. My poor teacher is long gone so there is no one but this paper and my name registered in the main temple to show my proof of ordination. . . . . I think rank can be a mixed blessing but it depends on whether we use it correctly or abuse this practice. Because there is always someone around to distort or take advantage of this, we probably need rank more than we can do without it.

I would also like to point out and I think this is shared my many veteran teachers - I don't hold back anything in teaching but I do notice very much that students have different absorption levels. As far as what I teach is concerned, I hope, beyond hope, that all my students would pay more attention, watch for the finer details of my instructions, follow them correctly and practice them until I don't have to go back and repeat myself over, and over, and over, and over again, and over again. . . . !

I have one student, over 35 years of training, and somewhere he picked up a bad habit with his back leg and always puts his foot down automatically shifting his center of gravity to his backside. I have been correcting him for years. . . . I refused to be defeated and told him that I will correct him until I die and still come back and haunt him as a ghost until he gets it. I certainly hope he reads this - because now you are all my witnesses! If this imput does any good at all - I hope he will correct his d*mn back foot! Thanks for your patience. . . . now back to "silly poems!"
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Old 11-18-2003, 08:04 PM   #87
paw
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Linda,
Quote:
Well ok, if you say so, but even though a teacher may give the students all he's got, I'm pretty sure a regular student does not get the same level of instruction that the uchi deshi's are getting.
I'm not sure what your point is.

I submit the fundamental role of an instructor is to improve the performance of their students. Period. An instructor that arbitrarily determines that a student doesn't have the proper "level of committment" and therefore withholds details is not concerned about the student as a person. Do you disagree?
Quote:
I don't think teachers have obligations only to the talented and the gifted, I was thinking more along the lines of ‘committed and loyal to the art', as in possible inheritors of the system that the teacher is trying to impart, hopefully for future generations to enjoy and improve on.
As an instructor, my students must be at least as good as I am, otherwise the art will decline. That's a rough paraphrase of a bjj instuctor who just won the World Championship (Mundials). To my mind, that is the responsibility of the instructor.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-18-2003, 10:18 PM   #88
Nafis Zahir
 
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Sensei Furuya, how was it back when you were training? Was there a ranking system? Was there and organization? Do you know how O'Sensei promoted people? Your input is very valuable for this thread. Thank You Sensei!

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Old 11-19-2003, 07:37 AM   #89
kung fu hamster
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Hi Paul,

Sorry, I don't have the experience or expertise to disagree with you on these points, although I do question the feasibility of the logistics. If you hold to these ideals then I think you must be an amazing teacher.

Cheers,

Linda
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Old 11-19-2003, 08:43 AM   #90
indomaresa
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i agree wholeheartedly to sensei furuya's standing. Rank is necessary to make a dojo grow, since a sensei can only handle so much students. Sempais are there to help kohais.

there won't be any sempais without exams though.

Nafis,

it's different for every person. The system's necessary, but many people dislike the ranking system too.

I personally will only test if my sensei wants me to and I won't test if my fellow shodans aren't testing.

No hurry. the tests are expensive anyway.

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 11-19-2003, 09:01 AM   #91
happysod
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Maresa, "there won't be any sempais without exams though". Sorry, totally false. We've had threads mention grades awarded (even at kyu) rather than tested and many organistions don't grade at all above 3rd/4th dan, again they're awarded.

"No hurry. the tests are expensive anyway" - why are they so expensive? Does your dojo fly in a sensei or something? I can just about understand paying for the tester's time and a reasonable admin cost, but I've been horrified when reading some organisations testing costs...
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Old 11-19-2003, 09:08 AM   #92
Thalib
 
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Funny that Ian...

I'm in the same dojo with Maresa. Our dojo is under a foundation which also arranges the yudansha testings. We don't have a high enough ranking yudansha to test someone to a shodan.

And the answer is yes, we do fly in a shihan once a year from Aikikai Honbu for yudansha testing. I can't remember exactly, but it costs us like U$200 for a yudansha test.

Last edited by Thalib : 11-19-2003 at 09:15 AM.

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Old 11-19-2003, 09:21 AM   #93
happysod
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thalib, thanks for the info, all I can say is eek - although with the air fare/accomodation taken into account I can understand the cost and even (though it grates me to say this) feel it's probably quite reasonable
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Old 11-19-2003, 09:21 AM   #94
indomaresa
Dojo: Aiki Kenkyukai
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well ian,

There's no rank awarded here in indonesia, ever. Except maybe kyu grades at secluded dojos. The National organization frown upon such practice.

So, it's still "no exam - no sempais" for me.

And frankly, I agree because self-testing dojos here can sometimes create a mess. The organization here try to let the dojos take exams together to ensure a standard.

The expensive test I mentioned are dan tests, where you're supposed to pay 20.000 yen. How many dollars is that? Here in indonesia it's equal to my one month pay. Or.... 240 bowls of noodle. ^_^

The kyu test fee is... probably 5-6$

How much do u pay for tests there?

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 11-19-2003, 09:36 AM   #95
Nafis Zahir
 
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My shodan test was $300.00! That's not a typo! I got a really nice certificate from Japan with the only english on it being my name. (So I don't know what it really says!) And my old instructor who is a control freak, keeps all the blue books of the yudansha. I did get it once I finally decided to leave. See my thoughts on the "Why Test" thread. Can you say rebate anyone?

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Old 11-19-2003, 09:50 AM   #96
indomaresa
Dojo: Aiki Kenkyukai
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nafis,

I know some japanese, and if the certificate is from honbu, it'll translate to;

Date dd/mm/yyyy

We, the collective mind hereby states that you, -insert your name here- should not resist, for resistance is futile.

surrender and be assimilated

signed;

the borg

^0^

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 11-19-2003, 09:54 AM   #97
Nafis Zahir
 
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[quote="Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa)"]nafis,

I know some japanese, and if the certificate is from honbu, it'll translate to;

Date dd/mm/yyyy

We, the collective mind hereby states that you, -insert your name here- should not resist, for resistance is futile.

surrender and be assimilated

signed;

the borg

^0^



Ha-Ha-Ha! But you know what Maresa? You're probably right! But I've decided to just walk the earth. You know, like Kane in Kung Fu!

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Old 11-19-2003, 09:59 AM   #98
Michael Karmon
Dojo: Aikido Jerusalem
Location: Jerusalem Israel
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote:
My shodan test was $300.00! That's not a typo! I got a really nice certificate from Japan with the only english on it being my name..... See my thoughts on the "Why Test" thread. Can you say rebate anyone?
Well perhaps the theread should be "Why do tests cost so much?"

In our dojo our sensei tests and rank us up to Kyu 1. My Sensei does not charge for Kyu tests.

Dan test are given by a Shihan who is flown in from overseas. In October Seki Sensei awarded two Shodan, two Nidan and a Sandan ranks to members of my Dojo. The ranks were given during an open seminar Seki Sensei was giving in Israel. Tested persons were required to participate in the entire seminar (some 200$) and pay for the certificat from Humbo Dojo some 300$. Not too cheap - amounts to half of an avarege salary here.

My sensei does not charge for Kyu test because no one is making his living from Aikido and because he is a true idealist who believes money should not come in the way of someone who thrives to learn Aikido.

Open question: does you sensei makes his/her living of Aikido?

Last edited by Michael Karmon : 11-19-2003 at 10:06 AM.

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Old 11-19-2003, 10:07 AM   #99
Nafis Zahir
 
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Michael - my old instructor does make his living off of aikido and we had to pay for kyu testing. The higher the rank, the more the cost. i don't have a problem supporting the dojo, but then again, not all certificates are accepted at all dojos. YOu know what I mean!?

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Old 11-19-2003, 10:09 AM   #100
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
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Maresa, Thalib, I'm now back up to "how much". Maresa, I'm assuming you're about average in the pay scales for your country (apologies if not), so you and Thalib would pay the equivalent of 1 months wages for a dan grading?? Trying to picture the scene, partner's voice.. "ok, where's the rent money gone... ", gradee - "but look at the fancy writing". I think in Indonesia I'd never get a black belt (ok, if rank = skill, its a moot point, but you get my drift?).

As to our costs Maresa, it's 20-40 GBP which is 1/2-1 days average wages (or a round in a London city-centre pub)

Michael, please start this new thread, but could you ask for costs in buying power/ wages terms, Maresa now has me gobsmacked...

Totally off topic, do these organisations charging these amounts ever publish their accounts so you know who gets what?
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