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Old 10-30-2003, 07:24 AM   #26
thisisnotreal
 
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interesting.

i asked my teacher this.

He told me to try to box him.

I did.

He kept ma'ai until i got frustrated and really had to enter.

Then he did irimi tenkan so fast he literally disappeared, and then he was behind me at which point it was over, as he could do pretty much anything he wanted.

i learned a couple of things from that, most importantly, don't fight the way someone wants to fight. Keep distance, and don't let the boxer play to his strengths, if he wants to hit you he will really have to commit, at which point I believe a strike to the elbow (or block) with irimi tenkan ended the confrontation.

what do you guys think?

josh
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Old 10-30-2003, 07:34 AM   #27
Kevin Wilbanks
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Josh,

Are you, or have you been, a competitive boxer at the amateur or pro level? My understanding was that the scenario was trying to handle someone with serious experience and training, not just boxing-style attacks. The form of the attacks are part of what makes a boxer, kick-boxer, or muay-thai player dangerous. However, much more important in relation to most martial arts, including the way most seem to practice Aikido, is that they spend extensive time in a competitive, all-out, full-speed, freely interactive fighting scenario - developing reflexes, timing, instinct, etc... They also train their bodies as athletes, not hobbyists.
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Old 10-30-2003, 08:09 AM   #28
aiki_what
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Kevin,

That just about sums it up as good as I have ever read.

Nice post.
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Old 10-30-2003, 08:12 AM   #29
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
However, much more important in relation to most martial arts, including the way most seem to practice Aikido, is that they spend extensive time in a competitive, all-out, full-speed, freely interactive fighting scenario - developing reflexes, timing, instinct, etc... They also train their bodies as athletes, not hobbyists.
This is very important. Not only the technique, but the training methodology is important as well. Learning a technique during resistanceless kata does not necessarily enable one to apply it under resistance and other physical/psychological pressures.

Aikido will work, but the individual must train in a manner that will allow it to work.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 10-30-2003 at 08:17 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-30-2003, 08:18 AM   #30
aikilouis
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Hey Kevin, if you already know the answer, why bother asking ?

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Old 10-30-2003, 08:48 AM   #31
fjcsuper
 
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About keeping maai and luring the boxer in...

Now I know why they have rings with ropes tied to 4 poles to keep people in...

I wonder... will keeping maai in the ring work? What if you get cornered, or reach the ropes?

Just being curious

It is inevitable.
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Old 10-30-2003, 09:41 AM   #32
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Louis R Joseph (aikilouis) wrote:
Hey Kevin, if you already know the answer, why bother asking ?
You oversimplify. I suspected a particular answer and explained why. The option to be contradicted is still there.
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Old 10-30-2003, 10:56 AM   #33
Erik
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Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
Mr. Shioda covers these topics much better in his book "Aikido Shugyo" which is now available from Shindokan books online.

Apparently he dealt with a boxer who challenged him during a demo, by dodging his jab, grabbing his OTHER arm and "flattening" him with shihonage.

From my dabblings with an amateur boxing practitioner, however, I conclude that this type of feat would require the skills of someone like Mr. Shioda.
I seem to recall that there was more than one story of this type which typically ended with, and I'm paraphrasing more than a little bit, it wrecked his arm. In theory, in some circles, aikido has a paradigm of doing minimal injury to an attacker. Had this boxer attacked Rickson Gracie he likely (and I'm sure Rickson has tweaked a few arms in his career) would have been choked out and emerged virtually unharmed.

So, if I tackle someone, and I subdue them safely, it seems to me that such would qualify as perfectly acceptable aikido.
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Old 10-30-2003, 11:11 AM   #34
Johann Enslin
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A boxer needs to be balanced to box. Unbalance him! Make him over-extend.
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Old 10-30-2003, 12:38 PM   #35
shihonage
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
I seem to recall that there was more than one story of this type which typically ended with, and I'm paraphrasing more than a little bit, it wrecked his arm. In theory, in some circles, aikido has a paradigm of doing minimal injury to an attacker. Had this boxer attacked Rickson Gracie he likely (and I'm sure Rickson has tweaked a few arms in his career) would have been choked out and emerged virtually unharmed.

So, if I tackle someone, and I subdue them safely, it seems to me that such would qualify as perfectly acceptable aikido.
Actually that's exactly what I've seen Rickson Gracie do vs. a boxer in competitive environment.

He put on a boxing stance, projecting full intent of making it a boxing match, threw two punches/jabs and immediately tackled the opponent.
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Old 10-30-2003, 12:58 PM   #36
Nick Simpson
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I went two rounds with an amatuer boxer in march, just messing around in someones back yard. Id never boxed before and this guy I know challenged me cos he knew I did aikido, I was reluctant to except but when everyone is shouting you on its a little tough (peer pressure I know but I didnt leave it there, shameful shameful pride ).

Id never boxed before and this guy was taller than me and had a much longer swing so I got battered in the face as I tried to keep my distance, which I found impossible as his arms were so long. I realised I had to get close so I entered, jabbed him, he went down and I pinned him on the ground where things got messy, It was anything go's pretty much, so I could hit him on the floor till I got pulled off. Second round he was really mad (understandibly so) so he knocked me off a patio and into a flower bed. After that we decided we had no will to continue any further so we shook hands and had a few beers.

I wouldnt say that was aikido (try doing shionage with boxing gloves on ) but I did use aikido principles such as mai and kushuzi and it worked. I would never ever want to properly fight a boxer though, it hurts way too much!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 10-31-2003, 01:56 AM   #37
bob_stra
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Re: aikido aggainst a boxer

Quote:
Steven Wohlwend (solidsteven) wrote:
how would you use Aikido aggainst a Boxer?
Short response:

My aikido? I wouldn't.

Long Response:

There maybe be elements of aikido that can work "against a boxer". I can think of a few, mostly that have been mentioned here.

But you need knowledge / understanding of both fields to make that work. For example, all the fancy, beautiful, gliding foorwork in the world will not save you against sharp, continuos, aggressive, quick angled attacks.

But unless someone has thrown such an attack against you while you try to pirouette about, then you won't know.

IOW

(1)Understand aikido (2)Understand punching (ie: boxing) OR (3) Change the game (wrestle, kick, weapons, leave, run him over with a car etc)

"Straight out of the dojo / never tried it against a resisting opponent / no other experience" type aikido? Good luck with that ;-)

Last edited by bob_stra : 10-31-2003 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 10-31-2003, 04:14 PM   #38
Wil Branca
 
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Quote:
Johann Enslin wrote:
A boxer needs to be balanced to box. Unbalance him! Make him over-extend.
That's kind of what I meant by:

"Suwari Waza might screw up a

boxer's footwork... "

i.e.; no footwork = no balance.


Sapienta Arma Dedit
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Old 11-01-2003, 11:51 AM   #39
mattholmes
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I think the argument for training with/talking with boxers is has a valid basis. If the whole world looks like a nail to a man with only a hammer, then all the world's conflicts will appear to be appropriately solveable with aikido to an aikido practioner.

I think it's a mistake to assume that any one thing has the answer (or anything approaching it) to the world. I may be a really sharp philosopher, but there are still some questions better answered by a chemist. Both fields are useful and necessary.

I think this is an easy mistake to make in any martial art. Because we don't usually study it in a regular (cumpulsory) school setting, we are taught by individuals who want to keep people coming back. I have the greatest respect for people who teach the martial arts, so please don't misunderstand me, but most students are more likely to come back to study with a system that they think has an "answer" than they are to one that is more technically-minded. Something like an elite society.

I'm getting a bit off topic here, and I appologize. My point is this: aikido has the capability to be an effective and useful skill set in a self-defense (against a boxer, for example) situation. However, this capability can be enhanced exponentially by viewing the entire situation through more than one lense.

Matt

Last edited by mattholmes : 11-01-2003 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 11-02-2003, 08:03 AM   #40
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IMHO, one of the advantages of the irimi-tenkan is to enter and blend, to see from the other person's perspective by trading places with them. The best way to deal with a boxer, or any art, is to gain a better perspective of that art. Train in boxing. Every art has its vulnerabilities.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-02-2003, 10:23 AM   #41
Kensho Furuya
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As in every martial art, we must follow the old adage of "know your enemy." I don't think we should deal in idle speculation but, at the same time, there is too much to learn in Aikido to go off and learn boxing too. Also, the point of Aikido is not to compare ourselves with others, nor compete with others. This is against our custom. I have had much experience with boxers and many other martial arts. Most of my good friends are not in Aikido but other martial arts and I cultivated a strong friendly relationship with many other teachers and share their knowledge and experience. As you get to know other teachers of other martial arts, you find that we are all about the same and share the same experiences and problems and all feel the same way about everything. I admire boxers, kung fu teachers, kali eskrima, taekwando, etc. and often find that they are in great admiration and respect of Aikido too. . . .

More than anything, most Aikidoists are fearsome of boxers from what we see on tv or in the ring. More than boxing technique, we are more stilted by the power of the punches, speed and onslaught. As far as technique is concerned, boxing is, by far, more limited in what it can do than the numerous techniques and applications of Aikido.

One problem, I see is that, more often than not, when we practice against tsuki or munetsuki or yokomen-uchi, the uke attacks much too slowly for effective practice and, more often than not, does not make contact but stops mid-way. Generally, I like to see my students practice powerful strikes making contact (this has the additional benefit of teaching the student to move with his whole body and to issue power) - with no or limited impact - with the beginners. In more advanced practice, controlled or lightly controlled impact is permitted. I am not trying to change the dojo into a boxing ring, indeed. So generally, I like to say, "Contact, without impact." As the students get accustomed to dealing with a punch which is actually making contact with some impact, they eventually and very naturally learn to deal with it. It takes just as much effort, training and time to practice a technique against a punch which nevers comes and has no power and to practice against a punch which has striking power and is aimed at reaching its target (your face or body). In Aikido, we learn to look at all situations from "do-able" circumstances and not make it an "impossible" question to deal with. . . . . . Thanks!
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Old 11-15-2003, 09:23 PM   #42
Usagi Yojimbo
Dojo: Shinkikan Aikikai Aikido of Corpus Christi
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The General Self-Defense tactics of Usagi-san!

1) Adopt defensive stance

2) Give opponet a swift kick the groin

3) Repeat step 2

4) Repeat Step 2

5) Repeat Step 2

6) Repeat step 2

...

My head hurts...
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Old 11-16-2003, 05:59 AM   #43
John Longford
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I do know from expreience that Aikido works against someone trying to punch you, but a skilled boxer who can tell?

One thing is for certain Atemi would be a waste of time, boxers are used to being hit.

I once witnessed a very real fight between a semi-pro boxer and a karate 1st. kyu. The karate guy lost not because he did not react but because the boxer just shrugged off his attacks and kept coming.

The best advice I can give is keep training, swallow your ego and the chances are you will never have to find out.
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Old 11-16-2003, 09:45 AM   #44
Atomicpenguin
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Well said, Mr. Furuya.
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Old 11-24-2003, 02:00 PM   #45
AsimHanif
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Aikidoist v Boxer

This is a topic near and dear to my heart. Let me first say that of course we are talking about both technically sounds participants. I can only speak from my own experience (and I am be no means a great boxer). I do have over 20 years of pro and am experience in boxing and kickboxing. But assuming that a boxer is vulnerable to kicks is a big mistake because most boxers know how to close the distance (irimi) very fast. Also (and this is the big one), boxers are conditioned for contact and recieving atemi will not deter unless it is in a vital area (which of course can go either way).

I have to add though- one thing that bugs me. I have been asked to attack nage (nage including Shihan level) and have been asked why did I stop my attack short?. Two reasons - One, I was asked to attack not hit (which is very different in boxing terms. And two - as a boxer you are trained to keep your balance (one point, center, etc) until in perfect position to deliver one or more blows.

I love Aikido but I do think we tend to miss the point sometimes when it comes to training with a martial mind. Sometimes (IMHO) we are to theoretical or philosophical.

And this is coming from a Ki Society member:-)
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Old 11-24-2003, 02:46 PM   #46
Alfonso
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why don't you bring it up?

I made a fool of myself asking Amdur sensei about this, actually about jabbing, noncomited strikes.

he basically demonstrated the same response Rick sensei had shown me. Again, not kihon but principled, response. Atemi, blending, redirecting.

I made a fool of myself because there isn't anythin esoteric about this issue. Want to experiment, try it? Want to experiment with a pro boxer , go ahead.

What's the big deal anyway? Why is this important?

Why do you practice Aikido?

There are many other ways of becoming an athlete if that is what you want.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-24-2003, 02:49 PM   #47
kironin
 
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Re: Aikidoist v Boxer

Quote:
Asim Hanif (AsimHanif) wrote:
I have to add though- one thing that bugs me. I have been asked to attack nage (nage including Shihan level) and have been asked why did I stop my attack short?. Two reasons - One, I was asked to attack not hit (which is very different in boxing terms. And two - as a boxer you are trained to keep your balance (one point, center, etc) until in perfect position to deliver one or more blows.
Keep them honest Asim, keep them honest. ;~}

and if you whack one of them (black belts), just tell them Craig in Houston said to keep it honest.

former VKS member,

Craig
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Old 11-26-2003, 11:05 PM   #48
AsimHanif
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I'm not sure if I understand Alphonso or if he understood me but I'll give it a shot.

I do train with boxers still with the focus as Craig said "to keep me honest".

Also I don't think is a contradiction to be a good athlete and a good aikidoist (although that was not my point).

My point was a pretty simple one (maybe I made it sound bigger than it actually was) - a trained martial artist is a trained martial artists regardless of system. A committed attack to me is a balanced attack. As an aikidoist it would be incorrect to not be centered in my execution. As a boxer the same applies. Whether nage or uke.

We all practice for different reasons. That is a personal choice. The main thing is not to force our views on others. I practice aikido because to me it is a method of all around self improvement, besides the fact that I think it is a beautiful art. I don't practice to hit or injure people (ego) but I think it is inappropriate to assume that a Hidy Ochiai or a Roy Jones Jr attack is not committed. I use them only as technical examples.

I must add that my instructor is very good about this and we both learn from each other. And I sometimes train with judo players who have a totally different energy.

So it's not about being aggressive or non-committed. Every attack is different so each response should respect that.

I hope I explained that clearly and humbly.
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