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Old 10-29-2003, 11:24 AM   #1
solidsteven
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aikido aggainst a boxer

how would you use Aikido aggainst a Boxer?
I just cant get this question out of my head
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Old 10-29-2003, 11:27 AM   #2
Bronson
 
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I'd be like, "Dude, stop hitting me in the face and I'll teach you unbendable arm"

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 10-29-2003, 12:00 PM   #3
Clayton Kale
Dojo: Nihon Goshin Aikido Academy
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Avoid confrontation as much as possible. If that doesn't work, go after his legs. Don't know how much atemi your dojo uses/encourages, but a good front kick to the side of the knee will slow down anybody.

"Pefect practice makes perfect." -Steven A. Weber Godan Nihon Goshin Aikido

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Old 10-29-2003, 12:19 PM   #4
akiy
 
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The below thread has 100 posts on the subject:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...?threadid=1452

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Old 10-29-2003, 12:29 PM   #5
shihonage
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Put on a boxing stance, throw 2 jabs while closing the distance, and then tackle him.
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Old 10-29-2003, 12:35 PM   #6
twilliams423
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"Put on a boxing stance, throw 2 jabs while closing the distance, and then tackle him."

And this would be what kind of Aikido?
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Old 10-29-2003, 12:52 PM   #7
gamma80
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Your best chance....Do a rear break fall and play dead!
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Old 10-29-2003, 01:32 PM   #8
shihonage
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Quote:
Tom Williams (twilliams423) wrote:
"Put on a boxing stance, throw 2 jabs while closing the distance, and then tackle him."

And this would be what kind of Aikido?
The one that has a chance if you're faced with a boxer.

Just look at the tackle as an atemi done with your whole body.
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Old 10-29-2003, 01:38 PM   #9
Brehan Crawford
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Well the best option is definitely to avoid the fight altogether. But if that's not possible, I'd say since boxing strikes are quick and short range, just get out of the way, or increase your ma ai. The boxer will have to either a: swing longer, which will give you more time to catch/deflect the punch and perform your technique of choice, or b: close the distance, at which point he'll be momentarily off-balance and you can just push or pull him over.

This is all theory, btw. I've thankfully never had to put any of it into practice aside from the first sentence.
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Old 10-29-2003, 01:43 PM   #10
aiki_what
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I just usually give my boxer a doggie treat and he leaves me alone.
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Old 10-29-2003, 01:44 PM   #11
aiki_what
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Until he wants another one.....
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Old 10-29-2003, 01:46 PM   #12
twilliams423
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I look at a tackle as exactly what it is, a tackle, which is wrestling, not atemi nor Aikido. Good Aikido has options against any kind of attacker short of abandoning Aikido for wrestling or boxing.
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Old 10-29-2003, 01:51 PM   #13
ikkainogakusei
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Quote:
Tom Williams (twilliams423) wrote:
"Put on a boxing stance, throw 2 jabs while closing the distance, and then tackle him."

And this would be what kind of Aikido?
I'd vote for the avoid confrontation altogether. Grapple or run if diffusion fails. Boxers aren't necessarily track stars.

OTOH if you want to follow the 'aikido out the window' line already suggested, might I suggest the 9mm 'spray & pray' tactic, maybe a pipe bomb, or several starving rabid dogs....starving rabid children on ritalin, alligators, or really cross nuns.



itwasjustasuggestion


"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 10-29-2003, 02:06 PM   #14
shihonage
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Quote:
Tom Williams (twilliams423) wrote:
I look at a tackle as exactly what it is, a tackle, which is wrestling, not atemi nor Aikido. Good Aikido has options against any kind of attacker short of abandoning Aikido for wrestling or boxing.
The "Aikidoka vs. a boxer" debate is pointless.

When you are willingly engaging a boxer in a fight, you have already abandoned the true Aikido mindset and have adopted a competitive mindset instead.

In real life there's a lot more going on than just "a boxer" "confronting" "an aikidoka".

Its one person who wants to beat the shit out of another person.

There's an intense emotional energy in a real situation. There are also all kinds of potential weapons lying around which can be used in the manner of a sword or a stick.

You may want to keep the Aikido distance where he can't reach you immediately, and rile him up emotionally to the point where he can't control himself any longer.

He will not have the patience to keep chasing you around, and instead he'll close the distance in a flash, while trying to hit you simultaneously with a dedicated, strong attack, and thats when you can apply Aikido.

But that is, of course, assuming that he doesn't have friends, or a knife, or that your wife isn't nearby, or millions of other possibilities.

Mr. Shioda covers these topics much better in his book "Aikido Shugyo" which is now available from Shindokan books online.

Apparently he dealt with a boxer who challenged him during a demo, by dodging his jab, grabbing his OTHER arm and "flattening" him with shihonage.

From my dabblings with an amateur boxing practitioner, however, I conclude that this type of feat would require the skills of someone like Mr. Shioda.

Last edited by shihonage : 10-29-2003 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 10-29-2003, 02:18 PM   #15
twilliams423
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"Apparently he dealt with a boxer who challenged him during a demo, by dodging his jab, grabbing his OTHER arm and "flattening" him with shihonage.

From my dabblings with an amateur boxing practitioner, however, this type of feat would require the skills of... Mr. Shioda."

This is exactly my point! Thank you.
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Old 10-29-2003, 03:21 PM   #16
L. Camejo
 
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The age old quote again - Aikido works, though your Aikido might not.

Train hard folks. Shioda's other hand shi ho nage is a good example of how Aikido works best by not letting our minds get bound into predetermined, comfortable patterns. There is no rule that means we must deal with the attacking limb at all in order to execute kuzushi and technique.

Of course I do not beleive that one needs to be Shioda or Ueshiba M. to pull these things off either, just train seriously with realism in mind, not BS-ing ourselves into looking good executing poor technique with a cooperative Uke.

Personally though, I think the best thing to use against a fast strike (if the boxer is using boxing alone) is a well timed atemi waza. Shomen ate anyone?

Of course self defence is not limited to any fighting style or rule, so it does not matter what a person does, except at the time of confrontation itself.

Just a thought or 2.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-29-2003, 03:50 PM   #17
mj
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There is an aikido move where you drop down and apply pressure to his shin bone into the knee to make your opponent collapse and drop. Thus allowing you to kick him in the nuts.

I don't actually think that would work though, it will just get you a worse beating.

Do we have anyone, exept for me, who has fought boxers?

My only advice would be...strike first. With ki and shin and tai, and everything else you have picked up. (kitchen table, school bus etc)

Other than that...get to a boxing club

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Old 10-29-2003, 03:53 PM   #18
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: aikido aggainst a boxer

Quote:
Steven Wohlwend (solidsteven) wrote:
how would you use Aikido aggainst a Boxer?

I just cant get this question out of my head
I wouldn't. The way I train Aikido, it wouldn't be of much direct use. As suggested above, anything but standing around in punching range would be worth a try. I won't get into a fight over words or silliness, so if it came to that, I'd probably be looking to do something devastating with my knife or a nearby found object/weapon.

I don't think there is any reason you couldn't use Aikido against a boxer, and I don't think you'd have to be a 30 yr. veteran/master to do it - you would just have to train for it. I think the idea that you should just train in some set traditional way for a really long time waiting for some mystical level of mastery to set in is silly.

The first step is to find yourself someone with boxing skills and/or get some Aikido partners and take some boxing lessons. Next, experiment with entries and moves at reduced speed and power until you find a few things that seem useful. Finally, put on a bunch of protective gear and practice nearer and nearer to full speed and power.

If you want to fight a real boxer (athlete), then I'm guessing you'd have to train intensely enough that you'll be taking some hard, painful punches on a regular basis, and the boxer would probably be experiencing minor joint injuries (at least). I wouldn't feel truly confident about fighting a bona fide boxer without training at a level involving serious pain and injury risk... which is one of the reasons I don't train to be a fighter.
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Old 10-29-2003, 05:15 PM   #19
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, good boxer are hard to deal with for any system.

That being said, keep your distance and flow with the jabs, slip it as you enter and take balance. Grabs tend to be difficult so just enter and throw Irimi-nage or Shiho-undo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-29-2003, 06:54 PM   #20
Nacho
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I totally agree with Kevin's opinion.

And I would like to add that tackling someone to the ground would require knowing wrestling or grappling ability, not only for the ground scenario but also the tackling is not that easy. Also it isn't easy to throw jabs to a boxer to reduce distance. If you have doubts about something you have to test it, practice it, in this case with someone who knows boxing.
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Old 10-29-2003, 09:14 PM   #21
Nafis Zahir
 
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If you truly want to know how to defeat a boxer - here it is. Don't try to defeat a BOXER. In aikido, as well as any other martial art, it is a grave mistake to try to figure out how to defeat another style. By doing this, you have already been defeated, because you are going to compromise your art. The boxer is going to do what he does - box. As aikido practitioners, you should just do aikido. Blend with him, take his balance and control yourself. Sure, it is good to study other forms of fighting to look at its strengths and weaknesses, as well as to know how to better defend against them, but ultimately, you must be true to your art. When I was in high school, boxers who fought wrestlers would box, and the wrestlers would wrestle. Just as you should never pre-plan techniques for self defense, like wise you should not do the same for boxers. Remember, boxing is linear, aikido is circular - that's our advantage.

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Old 10-29-2003, 09:41 PM   #22
ikkainogakusei
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Talking wait...I got it!

Okay, wait...you defeat a boxer by inventing a time machine, traveling back to early greek times and convincing the first 'boxer' that they should try wrestling or dancing instead, then there will be no boxers, no confrontation with the boxer, thus an aiki way to surely beat a boxer!

Or...uh...just get out of the way, set ego aside and don't confront, and uh...cover your ears to prevent nibbling.

"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 10-30-2003, 01:34 AM   #23
p00kiethebear
 
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Timing is everything.

Increase your ma ai, when he swings wider to reach you, enter in quickly, and precisly, performing an atemi to the inside of his arm (where all the tender vital parts of the arm are). Grab said arm and pull a quick sankyo.

I was told this is how o sensei defeated a boxer of sorts. Though i make no claims that the source is valid (friend)

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 10-30-2003, 02:39 AM   #24
Wil Branca
 
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Re: aikido aggainst a boxer

Quote:
Steven Wohlwend (solidsteven) wrote:
how would you use Aikido aggainst a Boxer?

I just cant get this question out of my head
Suwari Waza might screw up a
boxer's footwork...


Sapienta Arma Dedit
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Old 10-30-2003, 03:57 AM   #25
philipsmith
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I have two students who have boxed at an amateur level, in addition Shihan Smith (UKA) also boxed in his youth and I can tell you that a short jab is hard to defend against!

The only real option is to get behind them with a strong irimi or irimi-tenkan movement as then they have to turn around (OK so it only buys time)or you can apply an irimi-nage.

Really I try to practise with them a lot and accept that I may get hit now & then whilst trying to apply technique.
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