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Old 01-19-2001, 07:34 AM   #26
ian
 
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P.S. its funny how many martial arts have stories of how their originator decimated all the opponents in other martial arts.

To me success in real situations is far more dependent on your attitude and natural fighting ability, learning techniques is just a bonus and allows you to act instinctively instead of freezing - don't ever believe there is an ultimate martial art of ultimate martial artist! In fact every situation is different and I'm sure you could kill any martial artist given the right conditions (e.g. enough suprise).

[this may exclude Ueshiba if you believe he could actually see the spirit of the attack before it began - which I reserve judgement on]

Ian
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Old 01-19-2001, 07:42 AM   #27
andrew
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Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
him, by his Daito Ryu techniques. And before this event Ueshiba was renowned as highly skilled and unbeaten practiser of MA. I'm not sure how well Mochizuki mastered Daito Ryu compared to O-senseis Aikido, but Daito Ryu is a complete MA and probably takes even longer to master that Aikido (if that's possible).
I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest Ueshiba was a renowned martial artist at this point. He trained for 20(?) years in the Daito Ryu. When his Omoto-kyó mentor (Onaisaburo?) persuaded him to open a dojo and give classes he began to build a reputation. Many years after meeting Takeda.

Aikido is, in part, a distillation of hundreds of Daito ryu techniques into a small number of principles. O Senseis mastery was in attaining the level of insight required to acheive this. He never recieved his Daito Ryu Menkyo kaiden. Don't confuse the written length of a cirriculum with the arts "completeness."
andrew
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Old 01-19-2001, 08:54 AM   #28
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Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
Quote:
darin wrote:

Interestingly, when Minoru Mochizuki went to France he was challenged by fencers, savate, wrestlers and boxers. He realized that Daito Ryu Aiki jujitsu was useless. So he changed to judo and kendo techniques and won easily. This is why he has added many judo and karate techniques to aikido. Upon returning to Japan he suggested to Ueshiba that he change aikido but he wasn't interested.
Yes but remember that Ueshiba himself came in contact with Daito Ryu Aiki jiujiutsu, when he challenged Takeda and was totally dominated by him, by his Daito Ryu techniques. And before this event Ueshiba was renowned as highly skilled and unbeaten practiser of MA. I'm not sure how well Mochizuki mastered Daito Ryu compared to O-senseis Aikido, but Daito Ryu is a complete MA and probably takes even longer to master that Aikido (if that's possible).
Mochizuki and Tomiki were the only ones who got Menkyo Kaidan from Ueshiba. At that time Ueshiba was teaching Daito Ryu.

As far as I know, none of Ueshiba's students reached his level of mastery. Its not surprising that Mochizuki as well as Gozo Shioda and Kenji Tomiki changed aikido to match their own ability.








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Old 01-19-2001, 01:44 PM   #29
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During this open conversation it has been established that Aikido is combat effective. Unfortunately not all encounters are the same. What works in the middle of a Middle East desert may not work at 2 a.m. in New York city.

Every soldier attending Basic Combat Training recieves two solid weeks of rifle marksmanship training. I saw few of my classmates go from no experience with weapons to consistantly knock down the 300 meter target. Accompanying the M16 was bayonnet, grenade, and machine gun training. So I'm pretty sure that the senior leadership isn't looking for another way to kill the enemy.

I know GJJ is easy to teach and is good physical conditioning. It may help sagging moral and bring back a warrior mentality. I do not believe that a hand to hand martial art will be a serious cause of enemy deaths in the next conflict. The battlefield has changed from when MA's were oftentimes the difference between life and death.

Martial arts are more beneficial to the regular military for the mindset they help produce than as a combative skill. The SpecOps community will probably continue with their own training programs.

I'd rather do Aikido but I wasn't consulted. Thanks for your time.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.

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Old 01-23-2001, 05:36 AM   #30
Aikilove
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Quote:
andrew wrote:
I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest Ueshiba was a renowned martial artist at this point. He trained for 20(?) years in the Daito Ryu. When his Omoto-kyó mentor (Onaisaburo?) persuaded him to open a dojo and give classes he began to build a reputation. Many years after meeting Takeda.
He trained sumo and kenjutsu before even meeting Takeda.

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 01-23-2001, 07:59 AM   #31
andrew
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Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
Quote:
andrew wrote:
I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest Ueshiba was a renowned martial artist at this point. He trained for 20(?) years in the Daito Ryu. When his Omoto-kyó mentor (Onaisaburo?) persuaded him to open a dojo and give classes he began to build a reputation. Many years after meeting Takeda.
He trained sumo and kenjutsu before even meeting Takeda.
I've trained aikido and kung fu. So what?
andrew
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Old 01-23-2001, 10:00 AM   #32
Nick
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Quote:
darin wrote:

Mochizuki and Tomiki were the only ones who got Menkyo Kaidan from Ueshiba. At that time Ueshiba was teaching Daito Ryu.



Roy Suenaka sensei was given a menkyo kaiden certificate by O'sensei prior to opening the Okinawa Aikikai, I belive in '63 or '64... not sure about the date, my books are at home.

Nick






---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 01-23-2001, 10:19 AM   #33
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Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
Quote:
andrew wrote:
I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest Ueshiba was a renowned martial artist at this point. He trained for 20(?) years in the Daito Ryu. When his Omoto-kyó mentor (Onaisaburo?) persuaded him to open a dojo and give classes he began to build a reputation. Many years after meeting Takeda.
He trained sumo and kenjutsu before even meeting Takeda.
Actually, according to most well researched historians (Stanley Pranin), O Sensei only dabbled in one or two other jujutsu (Tenshin Shinyo ryu and Yagyu ryu) styles and a little judo before beginning his study of daito ryu. This has been confirmed in interviews with the late Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba. See the interview with Stanley Pranin at this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/interviews/pranin0800.html

Regards,

Robert Cronin
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Old 01-23-2001, 12:30 PM   #34
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A: When did you begin the study of martial arts?

O-Sensei: At about the age of 14 or 15. First I learned Tenshinyo-ryu Jiujitsu from Tokusaburo Tozawa Sensei, then Kito-ryu, Yagyu-ryu, Aioi-ryu, Shinkage-ryu, all of them jujutsu forms. However, I thought there might be a true form of budo elsewhere. I tried Hozoin-ryu sojitsu and kendo. But all of these arts are concerned with one-to-one combat forms and they could not satisfy me. So I visited many parts of the country seeking the Way and training, but all in vain.


A: Then you did not learn aikido from the beginning. When did aikido come into being?

O-Sensei: As I said before, I went to many places seeking the true budo..Then, when I was about 30 years old, I settled in Hokkaido. On one occasion, while staying at Hisada Inn in Engaru, Kitami Province, I met a certain Sokaku Takeda Sensei of the Aizu clan. He taught Daito-ryu jujutsu. During the 30 days in which I leamed from him I felt something like an inspiration. Later, I invited this teacher to my home and together with 15 or 16 of my employees became a student seeking the essence of budo.

Jim23
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Old 01-23-2001, 02:21 PM   #35
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Interesting. It seems there is some inconsistent information between Mr. Pranin's interview with O Sensei and his interview last year by Jun (just an observation and no offense or criticism intended). I wonder if it had to do with how substantial O Sensei's studies of these arts were?

Robert Cronin
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Old 01-23-2001, 03:45 PM   #36
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I think you might be right

The following is from two interviews with Katsuyuki Kondo conducted in 1988 and 1992.

How do you view the relationship between Sokaku Takeda Sensei and Morihei Ueshiba Sensei?

Katsuyuki Kondo: This is just my personal opinion, but Morihei Sensei studied Daito-ryu for over twenty years and served Sokaku Takeda Sensei as his master. Sokaku Sensei looked after Morihei Sensei as his student in various ways. There are many stories about this aspect of their relationship, illustrating the courtesy of a student towards his master and the affection of a master towards his student. This relationship continued for a period of time, and at a certain point Morihei Sensei began to seek his own path and eventually created modern aikido. Morihei Sensei was a great person, and I believe that anybody who can be called great always exceeds his master. I do not know that Morihei Ueshiba Sensei exceeded his master, Sokaku Takeda Sensei, in terms of technical ability, but I think that realistically speaking, Morihei Sensei far exceeded Sokaku Sensei in terms of number of students and also the extent of his reputation.


Sensei, you mentioned the designations kyoju dairi and soke dairi. Historically, what do the kyoju dairi and menkyo kaiden qualifications mean and who has been awarded these certifications thus far?

Katsuyuki Kondo: There are quite a few people who received the kyoju dairi during Sokaku Takeda's time. Morihei Ueshiba Sensei was one of them. Also, there were Kotaro Yoshida Sensei, Kodo Horikawa Sensei, Toshimi Matsuda Sensei, Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sensei; all together I know of eighteen people who received the kyoju dairi from Sokaku Sensei.

---

From an interview with Kenji Tomiki.


It was in 1926 that Kenji Tomiki first met Morihei Ueshiba in Tokyo and was highly impressed by the latter's mastery of jujutsu techniques. After graduation from Waseda in 1927 with a degree in political science, Tomiki entered graduate school majoring in economics. During the summer of that year he spent a month of intensive training in Daito-ryu aikijujutsu under Ueshiba Sensei at the Omoto headquarters in Ayabe, near Kyoto. For Tomiki, Ueshiba Sensei's art included a huge body of essential jujutsu techniques which served as a vital complement to his judo training.


Jim23
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Old 01-23-2001, 03:55 PM   #37
BC
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What do those have to do with determining what martial arts O Sensei studied?

More relevant is how does any of this relate to the original topic of this thread - army combatives and aikido? My apologies to the starter of this thread.

Robert Cronin
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Old 01-23-2001, 05:13 PM   #38
Jim23
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Maybe you're right ...

... that this doesn't prove anything, and my other post was correct that you missed a few.

My personal feeling was that O-Sensi was probably playing down Daito-ryu by mentioning so many styles (I didn't just play baseball at college, I also played badminton, chess and table tennis).

But you're right, this is off topic. Apologies accepted on behalf of all.

Jim23
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Old 01-24-2001, 08:51 AM   #39
Aikilove
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[quote]andrew wrote:

Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
He trained sumo and kenjutsu before even meeting Takeda.
Quote:
andrew wrote:
I've trained aikido and kung fu. So what?
andrew [/b]
Andrew, In my statement I just replied your statement of you don't finding any record of O-senseis previous skilles of budo. And I believe Jim23 made it even clearer that O-sensei studied a bunch of jiujutsu and kenjutsu styles before Daitoryu.

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 01-24-2001, 10:17 AM   #40
andrew
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[quote]Aikilove wrote:
Quote:
andrew wrote:

Quote:
Aikilove wrote:
He trained sumo and kenjutsu before even meeting Takeda.
Quote:
andrew wrote:
I've trained aikido and kung fu. So what?
andrew
Quote:
Andrew, In my statement I just replied your statement of you don't finding any record of O-senseis previous skilles of budo. And I believe Jim23 made it even clearer that O-sensei studied a bunch of jiujutsu and kenjutsu styles before Daitoryu. [/b]
Here, look, there's a difference between being skilled and being renowned as such. Ueshiba was known for his physical strength at that time, but not as a master of the martial arts. That is my point. My own sensei is quite skilled, but he's known as a guy who does aikido to other martial artists, not as a renowned undefeatable master of budo to the general populace.

For the sake of topic, he _was_ supposed to be very skilled with bayonet while in the army.. (Are those still used?)
andrew
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Old 01-27-2001, 06:40 PM   #41
boyerc
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Smile US Army Secrets

Coming from someone who writes doctrine (not that particular one however) for the US Army, if the Army thought there was one thing in that manual it thought was a secret, the public would not have access to it.

When you write doctrine, you have to select whether or not you want to restrict access before it gets published to the web.
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Old 01-29-2001, 12:35 PM   #42
Jimro
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Bayonets are still in use.

James

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Old 02-07-2001, 02:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
ian wrote:
I don't think most of them are that secret - also I'm not sure if they are aikido or ju jitsu techniques; but I'm sure we don't want to get into that argument!

Ian
Army combatives owe more to the influence of jujutsu and judo teachers than to aikido folks (Heckler et al included). However, the technique similarities are such that it doesn't much matter.

The Army FM covering combatives was originally, IIRC, written in the late 1930s or early 1940s and has been modified over the years since.

I hadn't seen a copy of it for several years and got my hands on a recent version earlier this month, as a matter of fact. Not a whole lot had really changed sine I last read it.

Nothing secret there, BTW.

And BESIDES, aikido IS jujutsu, anyhow, making it all pretty moot.

I think the underlying theme here is that 'if the military uses aikido, it must make aikido a pretty kick-ass martial art.'

If I missed the point, there, I apologize in advance.

Here's my take on the sunject.

It's not important. Really. Do you enjoy aikido? Does it offer something that enhances your life? Then aikido is the 'right' martial art for you.

If not, go find something that does. Combat effectiveness? Geez, go buy an axe handle or a handgun.

Budo (and yes, Virginia, aikido IS budo) is a great way to learn a lot about yourself, learn some _principles_ of unarmed/lightly-armed combat, leanr something about a unique and fascinating culture ...

It's NOT about being the best fighter on the block. Not today, anyhow.

cg aka LOEP

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Old 02-07-2001, 03:09 PM   #44
Dan Hover
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[/b][/quote]
LOEP said
And BESIDES, aikido IS jujutsu, anyhow, making it all pretty moot.



Budo (and yes, Virginia, aikido IS budo) is a great way to learn a lot about yourself, learn some _principles_ of unarmed/lightly-armed combat, leanr something about a unique and fascinating culture ...


cg aka LOEP [/b][/quote]

So which is it a Jujutsu? which it clearly is not or a budo? Which it clearly is. Budo is not jujutsu and
vice versa. Army combatives are not in any way shape or form a "do" form.

you are mixing definitions in your post. And I am not quite sure what you were trying to say by the mixed defintions either.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:36 AM   #45
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: US Army combatives and aikido

Quote:
Dan Hover wrote:
[/b]
So which is it a Jujutsu? which it clearly is not or a budo? Which it clearly is. Budo is not jujutsu and
vice versa. Army combatives are not in any way shape or form a "do" form.[/quote]

Wow. This is reaching back. I hadn't realized that I hand't answered this.

Budo is martial ways and arts, bujutsu is a different way to express it. The terms jutsu and do are pretty much interchangeable (despite the misunderstanding fostered by a few writers' attempts to interpret and catalog something that simply doesn't translate well into English), and though they carry somewhat different 'flavors', they both connote a systematic, internalized study of a particular discipline.

Therefore, bujutsu is budo and vice versa.

Now then, jujutsu is a generic label that describes almost any unarmed or lightly armed Japanese combat discipline. Under the umbrella of jujutsu, we find things ranging from the very esoteric to the very mundane and systems ranging from joint manipulations to systems utilizing strikes and kicks.

Jujutsu is 'bread' and aikido is 'Poppa Ueshiba's homemade rasin nut bread.

What I was trying to say was that folks who say: Jujutsu is barbaric and aikido is sublime are contradicting themselves.

Chuck

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Old 12-23-2004, 02:25 PM   #46
Amassus
 
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Re: US Army combatives and aikido

Quote:
Remember that this talk of "aikido techniques" is really quite arbitrary. It would be more accurate to speak of them as "martial techniques." The techniques themselves are based on study of the human body and its physiology. What each style brings to bear is a different philosophy on the application of these principles
My thoughts exactly.
The wrists/limbs whatever, only move so many ways. I've seen kote gaeshi in many other forms of martial art, how and when you apply them makes all the difference.

Does the army teach ukemi?

Btw, Merry Christmas everyone

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 12-23-2004, 09:35 PM   #47
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Re: US Army combatives and aikido

Quote:
Willy Lee wrote:
Hello all,
In case you didn't know, the US Army has many manuals and other publications available on the web. One of them (FM 21-150, "Combatives", http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/at...21-150/toc.htm describes a basic course in hand-to-hand combat.
willy lee
Hey, that link doesn't work for me - what gives?


Oh - and a pretty old thread is it not?

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 12-23-2004 at 09:38 PM.

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Old 12-24-2004, 01:44 AM   #48
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Re: US Army combatives and aikido

Just trying to help you guys US. ARMY uses a system based upon B Jujitsu,... as it was developed by the Gracies . The truth is,.. that the system was gonna be... RIP but the guy,... got his posterior,... ungracefully wup,... on a UFC match by a guy called (The Specimen)..... the problem started when the announcer introduced him.. as.. a... US ARMY AIRBORNE RANGER in UFC 4 or 5,... and the Match doesn't last more than 35 seconds ... basically... he went for a shoot to the leg and didn't saw the knee coming in .....and..... poooof...... that was it..... of course this was seen as a discualifier of the system........ and then someone asked well,..... who the hell won the first 3 or 4?..... the answer was.......... a Brazilian named Gracie Sir and that was it I hope, I could tell you it was more complicated than that,... but no... that was it......... NOW......... not all soldiers fall under this rule of B Jujitsu based combatives specialized units S. Ops have the ability and budget to get specialized training from other sources,... this include G.Barrettes and Delta..... If you search the manuals for example, NAVY S.W. T you'll see portions made by Shidoshi Frank W. Dux formerly DUX RYU now F.A.S.S.T....... If you look at seminars for ST 1 or 2 on the Atlantic region, you'll see Paul Vunak as one of their favorite instructors..... if you go to the west side you'll see Frank Gucci, Rorion Gracie among others, this one type fits all is only for main force units, it doesn't apply to U.W. guys..... hope you have a better perspective

Evil Ways Of Dave (Tha Snake)
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Old 01-03-2005, 04:05 AM   #49
eyrie
 
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Re: US Army combatives and aikido

Quote:
Louis A. Sharpe, Jr. wrote:
Hello,

I've also read the posts on combat effectiveness and "real life" situations and have been waiting for someone to use the US Army and the Tokyo riot police as examples for Aikido being effective. I would also like to add that the US Navy Seals also utilize techniques which are very similar (if not identical) to some very common Aikido techniques (Kotegaeshi, Ikkyo, Nikyo). The Royal Canadian Mounted Police are taught the basic principles of Yoshinkan Aikido as well. I believe that the combat effectiveness of Aikido has been proven in many instances and those who feel otherwise are basing their judgements on silly competitions that are in no way similar to a "real life" encounter or a combat environment.
Actually these are "generic" techniques are found in many styles of jujitsu and aiki-jitsu. They come from a group of waza known as "ude osae" and are not specific to aikido.
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Old 01-03-2005, 01:47 PM   #50
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Re: US Army combatives and aikido

The old "21 Series" FM for combatives was supersceded a while back. the new one is FM 3-25.150. You can find more information about the Army Combatives Program at http://www.infantry.army.mil/combatives/

I am working extensively with the program in my unit and have also studied aikido for about 10 years now. If you have questions concerning the program I'd be happy to answer them or point you to a competent source.

The only thing I can say is that the program is currently being used by the Army. It is proving to be successful in it's goals, which is BTW, NOT to produce lethal budoka. While some of the applications may be useful to those outside of the Army, I would be hesitant to compare it to budo.

In fact, I think it is not possible to compare arts and kinda silly anyway as each has a different perspective, goals, and philosphy behind it. If it works for you...do it.
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