Aikikai Aikido Academy

Charles Hill wrote: This guy has seventh dan from the Aikikai Honbu dojo where he trained for a period of less than 10 years. I'm not so sure that "legitimate" ranks are all they are cracked up to be. Charles Hill

I agree with this post. Look at the Honbu homepage, aikido academy? I practice for for two days a week for 10 months and Im a shodan? A year and a half for nidan? Of course you could practice for hours and hours everyday at hombu, but that extra practice isnt listed as a requirement. I hope that Im terribly mistaken about the whole thing, but it sounds like belts for sale to me.

Ryan Bigelow wrote: Look at the Honbu homepage, aikido academy? I practice for for two days a week for 10 months and Im a shodan? A year and a half for nidan?

Why is that a problem, if "shodan" = "beginner," and nidan is just the next rank after that?

Thread split from original thread.

For those wishing for more information on the Aikido Academy at Aikikai Hombu dojo, you can find it here:

http://www.aikikai.or.jp/Eng/hombu/Academy.htm

-- Jun

Kent Enfield wrote: Why is that a problem, if "shodan" = "beginner," and nidan is just the next rank after that?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

I may get roasted for this but....,

In my experience Japanese students are more willing to shut up and submit to the training process at the beginning levels. In general, they advance from the beginner level to the intermediate level, what John Stevens Sensei has called "knowing your right foot from your left" faster than your average westerner. If we think "shu ha ri" it is at the "ha" level where most Japanese get stuck.

Charles Hill

Just to keep Charles company in the pot I concur. Many Westerners also try to run through the three levels and talk Ri when they would best be served at Shu.

What's the big deal? I've heard from a highly-respected sensei that has practiced in Japan, that Shodan is a "throw away" rank in Japan without a great deal of meaning. Doesn't Shodan translate to "first level?"

I've heard from many people that in Japan, shodan can be earned in 1-2 years. Most credible associations in the U.S. grant shodan in 6-10 years of consistant training.

I would love to do the program. I doubt it's a "gimmee rank" program. It's a great chance to practice consistantly with a Hombu instructor. That's a bad thing?

Daniel Pierson wrote: What's the big deal? I've heard from a highly-respected sensei that has practiced in Japan, that Shodan is a "throw away" rank in Japan without a great deal of meaning. Doesn't Shodan translate to "first level?"

Depends on the organization. But 6-10 years is just silly for Shodan.

Peter Rehse wrote: Depends on the organization. But 6-10 years is just silly for Shodan.

It took me 9 years (albeit with 2 dojo changes) in Canada. And that was practicing 3-6 times per week depending on the year.

And I have no qualms with the time taken. Every moment was important. Of course, then I had to learn it all over again when I came to Japan <sigh>

I do feel that shodan can be achieved faster in Japan (at least in Yoshinkan) and I think the reason for that is that there seem to be different "Aikido tracks" where the person is either a hobbiest (ippon), a serious student (kenshusei) or in the instructor track (uchideshi/senshusei).

The first one is pretty much a "throw away black belts" but the other two are more serious, but the amount of training is also much different for each track.

I would say that the Aikido I practiced in Canada basically only had a single track and that was somewhere between the kenshu and instructor-like track. Maybe not as serious as uchideshi, but the goals were similar and therefor the time taken was longer than here (although actual mat time might be similar).

My few yen,

--Michael

Hi Michael;

It took my four years but the first year was a loss. I moved to Honbu and got tossed right to the bottom.

We don't have formal tracks like you described but their are sort of informal ones. The dojo works both as a Honbu dojo and a neighborhood dojo. It contains everything from top-drawer athletes to 40 year old housewives deciding to do something completely different.

In the grand scheme of things the actual length of time is not important but 9 years???? Exactly how clumsy were you.

Peter Rehse wrote: In the grand scheme of things the actual length of time is not important but 9 years???? Exactly how clumsy were you.

Ha ha

Get on that shinkansen and come on up and find out <rubbing hands together fiendishly>

The dojo changes were a big deal. Politics is alive and kicking in Ontario, Canada <wry grin>

Talk to you later,

--Michael

Michael Stuempel wrote: The dojo changes were a big deal. Politics is alive and kicking in Ontario, Canada <wry grin>

Ah they are infamous.

Peter Rehse wrote: Depends on the organization. But 6-10 years is just silly for Shodan.

It took me 11 years including a 2 year "sabatical" in Japan where I also got tossed to the bottom of the pile and started again .

But who cares how long it takes, my Aikido is what's important, not the rank, and my ability is reflective of what I invest.

regards

Bryan

Bryan Bateman wrote: It took me 11 years including a 2 year "sabatical" in Japan where I also got tossed to the bottom of the pile and started again.

OK OK A reasonably healthy person, taking 6-10 years in a single dojo, with regular training of at least twice a week, is silly.

Peter Rehse wrote: OK OK A reasonably healthy person, taking 6-10 years in a single dojo, with regular training of at least twice a week, is silly.

I'm almost there and I'm nowhere near shodan

But you did take a break didn't you?

Peter Rehse wrote: OK OK A reasonably healthy person, taking 6-10 years in a single dojo, with regular training of at least twice a week, is silly.

Twice a week?!? Tell me that's a typo. That's like eight hours a month. It takes a minimum of six years to achieve Shodan with the USAF Western Region, and that's with closer to eight hours a WEEK of training. I guess we like our Shodan to be good.

I think about 400 practice days is about right. Any more than that Shodan is really not what it's name implies - beginning level.

I suppose you could give yourself kudos about how difficult your particular Shodan is but after that length of time it is essentially meaningless.

I also said at least twice a week and I assume that's a reasonably long class.

Aikikai Hombu system allows you to obtain Shodan after about 350 days of practise; providing you acheive all kyu grades on time. So two classes per week its 2-3 years (allowing for holiday breaks).

In saying that took me 7 but that was partly due to age restrictions (I was Shodan at 17)

... And not withstanding the individual's ability to learn and the quality of the instruction given at dojo level.

I agree with Bryan, the grade is a recognition of a given standard (and that's an entirely different debate) but the grade isn't important, time and experience on the mat is.

I don't uinderstand Ryan's post. In his intro he says he has been training about a year in Japan and is about to take his first kyu.
I inferred this to mean, this is how long he has been training, but maybe he's been training for seven years in the states and only a year in Japan.
But first kyu in a year is just a little short of shodan in a year, in the "long run", isn't it?

When a dojo has regularly scheduled gradings and/or a set syllabus, its possible to advance much faster than a dojo that operates "holistically" in the sense that testing is scheduled when enough students are ready to test.
If I test once a year I will make shodan in six years. That will be four years from now.

Bodhi Richards wrote: Twice a week?!? Tell me that's a typo. That's like eight hours a month. It takes a minimum of six years to achieve Shodan with the USAF Western Region, and that's with closer to eight hours a WEEK of training. I guess we like our Shodan to be good.

And are those 8 hours a month in an open class...where grades range from 1st nighters to x dans?...

or in kyu level specific classes where everyone is on a par?.

In the first scenario progress is bound to be hampered by continually having to ensure the newbies can practice safetly.

This whole issue is complicated by how a shodan is measured. What defines a shodan? Ability to win a fight? Ability to perform x techniques? ability to demonstrate self defence via techniques? ability to show an appreciation of base and a competence to start practicing it?

My feeling is that within all organisations they like their shodans to be good - Its just that what one group emphasises is good may disagree with what another group endorses.

At the end of the day its reallly really important but just as milestone.

Once you've earned it then its all about practicing

D

Peter Rehse wrote: OK OK A reasonably healthy person, taking 6-10 years in a single dojo, with regular training of at least twice a week, is silly.

Peter:

By that standard, it looks like most of North America is a pretty silly place, at least those areas which have USAF or ASU dojo.

But I would echo the observation that the SHU aspect is something that seems to be much more carefully observed by beginners in Japan than here in the US, which is one factor that goes into the increased time requirements.

I've also observed that US dojo tend to maintain fairly tight correlations between seniority and dan ranking, which sometimes makes for a bit of a glass ceiling for individuals here who are diligent about SHU and thus make quick technical progress. My view is that this is a misconstrual of the sempai/kohai construct, but it is also a social reality in many US dojo.

I also think that the comparatively longer time to shodan in the US is related to the greater tendency among US students to misconstrue the coveted black belt as something more than a "first step" and the caution of Japanese Shihan and their senior students about fostering a situation in which underqualified individuals might run out and start their own dojo.

Lastly, it also appears to me that even where there's no question of the new shodan running out and immediately opening up a dojo, more than a few instructors ask themselves whether or not a given individual is likely to continue training after shodan. If the answer is not clear, getting instructor approval for a test date may be difficult in many dojo.

I have mixed feelings about all of this, but for the most part, it seems to me that without these tendencies and patterns, there would be many, many more complaints about the quality of instruction and grading standards in the US than there are at present, although I've also seen some cases in which first-rate practitioners have walked away from the art entirely because of overly-tight linkages between dan gradings and seniority.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

Fred Little

There is no inherent formula of time spent in Aikido to calculate when a student will or should achieve Shodan or any other rank. Each individual, regardless of national origin, will take as long as he/she takes to reach any given level. There is nothing good or bad about this - it just is.

Peter Rehse wrote: I think about 400 practice days is about right. Any more than that Shodan is really not what it's name implies - beginning level. I suppose you could give yourself kudos about how difficult your particular Shodan is but after that length of time it is essentially meaningless.

meaningless,
Really ?

I took 6.25 years to shodan and given my frequency of practice up to then, something approaching 2000 practice days. I hardly felt it was essentially meaningless. Minimum time to shodan for my organization was 5 years determined by my shihan. He had a two year minimum as ikkyu which is why I didn't test earlier.

Someone doing a shodan in 10 months by training twice a week is a pretty meaningless black belt in my book. I would hardly call someone in my dojo training twice a week for less than a year a "serious beginner who has mastered the basics". Outside of Japan that practice would certainly qualify as a belt factory. However it's not exactly news that fastest way to get promoted in aikido organizations is to go to Japan.

should there be such a dramatic bias against those not being taught in Japan ?
well doesn't have to be, for my iaido organization that is based in Japan, a shodan is typically 2-3 years regardless of whether you train at a school in Japan or outside of Japan. However, all yudansha test outside of Japan are videotaped and sent to Japan for review and approval of advancement even though a shihan is doing the testing.