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Old 12-13-2000, 04:36 AM   #1
ian
 
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are martial artisits peaceful?

Although I've never been in any fights with someone who seems to be really good at martial arts (probably a good reflection on martial artisits as a whole), I've never been in a fight where I've ended up being on the ground. (I was thrown once, but they threw me away and my reverse ukemi had me on my feet in no time).

A few questions really; do fights end up on the floor? and has anyone been the victim of a particularly good martial artist? And, if so, did that make a big difference in your response?

Ian

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Old 12-13-2000, 08:03 AM   #2
REK
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Square

First, to connect this thread to another, the 95% of fights end up on the ground statistic is skewed. Perhaps they meant "95% of the people who fight end up on the ground, because that's where gravity takes you when you get the @$*! knocked out of you".

Not that anyone cares, but I work in a locked forensic unit. Some of our inmates are violent. Some of those are trained in MA. And yes, if they are trained, my response has been different. I quote Bill Gleason Sensei:
"Aikido is what you do when your assailant does everything right". If they are not skilled, I have never had to do much more than tai sabaki. If they are, I protect myself and my assailant to the best of the ability. (you can understand how this might differ from the response a correctional officer may have...)

In numerous assaults, I have never been taken to the ground. That doesn't mean I never will be. But I sure haven't experienced that statistic cited above.

Rob

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Old 12-13-2000, 09:00 AM   #3
Kevin73
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The statistic that they never give you is that 100% of fights start standing up. That sounds silly, but it is very vaild to understand that point.

I work as a Corrections Deputy for a Sheriff's dept. that houses around 550-600 inmates. They range from not paying child support all the way up to murder. I have seen alot of fights and unfortunatly been in alot of them as well. Here is what I have learned from MY observations.

1) Inmate vs. inmate: Only a couple went to the ground because one inmate picked up another one and threw him down. The only time I have seen it go to the ground other than that is because of environmental factors, such as, tripping on a chair

2) Inmate vs. guard: Just about every one of them goes to the ground because we have to hand cuff them.

I have never seen a single leg, double leg takedown before in any of these fights. They were either picked up and thrown straight down. Or taken down from officers with an ikkyo type technique. I hope this helps out some, as far as fights go.
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Old 12-13-2000, 10:00 AM   #4
Aikilove
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Re: are martial artisits peaceful?

...
Quote:
ian wrote:

do fights end up on the floor?
...

Hi Ian. I've worked as a member of an rapid assault team were I met two type-senarios

1. I was attacked - I managed to deflect the knife (in that case) and got him to the ground, since he was to be arrested and we had to controle( pin) him and cuff him.

2. I interveened in fights ( more like heavy argumentes with puching around) before one was knocked down.

In both cases I belive that one or more would have ended up on the ground, stabbed, shot or knocked (throwened) down.

As I have said before: If you don't have the time to run away from the attack then either you talk your way out of it or one of you will end up on the ground - maby not in a pin but throwned down or shot or....

You all maby ment submission type of "ending up on the ground" in that case my post didn't answard anything.

Jakob B - I'm late for training... see ya!

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 12-13-2000, 11:42 AM   #5
Matt Banks
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Fights on ground

The old line ''95% of fights end up on the ground'' How can that be proved? What I cant tell you from a family of police officers and marines in our experience no they dont go to the ground in the conventional sense. Yes 1 guy does as hed been knocked or thrown down. The above line is pushed by Gracie Jiujutsu so it gains popularity and sells more t-shirts, the main culpret is the UFC (of which the fight organiser is Rorion Gracie ''suspicious'') they get a nice paded ring a grapplers haven 1v1 and they dare call it ultimate fighting. Not true if you were locked up the guys mates would kick your head in and you couldnt do anything about it. What can be proved by stats and which ive seen from my cities stats is that most attacks on people definately occur at least 1v2+ so pure grappling is rendered useless. Most fights Ive seen end in 3 seconds all of which have been a quick tenkan and hes hit the floor. If it did go to the floor each fighter tries to get up straight away. I know how to grapple I used to go competion jiujitsu but I would not in real life with hard concrete floors or worse to have your head slammed against and the threat of of people attacking me on the ground while im locked up.

Dont let the UFC cloud your judgement.


Matt Banks

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Old 12-13-2000, 05:32 PM   #6
Erik
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The one real fight I've been in went to the ground. I tried to kick (no I didn't know how but I'd seen movies on it), he caught it, we tussled, we went down, tussled some more, he wound up on top and that was bad. He won on points and I bled. Truthfully, neither of us were hurt much at all.

The most amazing thing about it, is that I knew most of the people watching the fight. No one, and I repeat no one, moved to stop it and they could easily have done so. So much for enemies when you might have friends.

I should add that neither of us were martial artists at that point. I think we wound up on the ground because neither of us knew what to do standing up.

[Edited by Erik on December 13, 2000 at 07:01pm]
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Old 12-14-2000, 02:23 PM   #7
BC
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[quote]Erik wrote:
[b] The most amazing thing about it, is that I knew most of the people watching the fight. No one, and I repeat no one, moved to stop it and they could easily have done so. So much for enemies when you might have friends.


Gotta be careful on assigning blame on this one, I think. You're the one who got into the fight, correct? Besides, I tried to break up a fight once, and lost my front tooth (they don't grow back), and another friend attempting the same received ten stitches in his forehead. This was a number of years ago, and a short time before I became involved in the martial arts. Even now, I would hesitate to break up a fight unless someone I really cared about was at risk of getting badly injured. Alot of variables to consider and alot of risks as well.

I'd like to bring up another issue relating to this thread's topic, fighting other martial artists. That is, no matter how good you are in your martial art, or how good a fighter you are, there is always going to be someone who is bigger, stronger, meaner, tougher, badder, better, nastier and faster than you. If you keep playing the odds, you will eventually learn this lesson the very hard way. Also, all of this seems to ignore the fact that aikido isn't about fighting. Self defense, yes; but fighting, no.



[Edited by BC on December 14, 2000 at 02:33pm]

Robert Cronin
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Old 12-14-2000, 06:00 PM   #8
Erik
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Quote:
BC wrote:
Gotta be careful on assigning blame on this one, I think. You're the one who got into the fight, correct? Besides, I tried to break up a fight once, and lost my front tooth (they don't grow back), and another friend attempting the same received ten stitches in his forehead. This was a number of years ago, and a short time before I became involved in the martial arts. Even now, I would hesitate to break up a fight unless someone I really cared about was at risk of getting badly injured. Alot of variables to consider and alot of risks as well.
Actually, I've headed off a number of similar confrontations since then in exactly the same situation. Of course, I've gotten them before blows were thrown but not by much a couple of times. It usually requires people a bit older or more mature who won't tolerate that crap and it absolutely requires some semblance of community on the part of everyone. If either of those are missing you can get serious problems.

There's a book called the Psychology of Persuasion (it's excellent) and one of the chapters involves people's reactions to accidents or crimes. The author points out that people are almost always willing to help (even in New York) if the appeal is direct to them. If they are part of a group and the group doesn't help, they won't help. He tells a story of being in an auto wreck and watching everyone drive by rubber necking. They were in a group, in line and the line kept going forward. He said that to get help he went directly up to people and started asking them to do things (call 911, get a blanket, etc). Everyone helped. Had he just sat there everyone would have driven by watching the blood leak out of him. Think about it and tell me you are different?

Back to my situation, once I've stepped into the beginning's of fights, in general, other people stepped in. The group mindset rules.

PS: I understand your points. I'm not assigning blame to anyone other than myself. I was an idiot on that one.
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Old 12-14-2000, 11:34 PM   #9
sceptoor
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"He said that to get help he went directly up to people and started asking them to do things (call 911, get a blanket, etc). Everyone helped. Had he just sat there everyone would have driven by watching the blood leak out of him. Think about it and tell me you are different?"


Personally, I'd have to say that I am different. If I didn't see emergency vehicles at the scene of an obvious wreck, with obviously injured people, I'd have to say I'd get the hell out my car right after I dialed 911, which is why I find his story hard to believe. It's absurd to think a multitude of human beings would just casually ignore that kind of a disaster and not help without first being persuaded by the injured. I'm sorry, I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but one has to admit that's a pretty tall story.

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Old 12-15-2000, 12:49 AM   #10
crystalwizard
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:
"He said that to get help he went directly up to people and started asking them to do things (call 911, get a blanket, etc). Everyone helped. Had he just sat there everyone would have driven by watching the blood leak out of him. Think about it and tell me you are different?"


Personally, I'd have to say that I am different. If I didn't see emergency vehicles at the scene of an obvious wreck, with obviously injured people, I'd have to say I'd get the hell out my car right after I dialed 911, which is why I find his story hard to believe. It's absurd to think a multitude of human beings would just casually ignore that kind of a disaster and not help without first being persuaded by the injured. I'm sorry, I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but one has to admit that's a pretty tall story.

Guess that depends on where you live. I sat in Earl K. Long Memorial Hospital in Baton Rouge, LA one night when the cops brought in a girl on a stretcher...the top of her head was ripped off and her brain exposed. No one moved..even the receptionist just sorta sat there and told the cops that the girl would have to wait cause the doctors were busy. The cops finaly busted the door to the ER open and forced a doctor to deal with her. Too late by that time she was dead. Wasn't shock at the situation that kept everyone from moving...most of the people had been there 6 or 7 hours and were bored...They all just sat there watching what was happening as if it were some ordinary thing ...me..I was in too much pain to move.

[Edited by crystalwizard on December 15, 2000 at 12:52am]

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A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 12-15-2000, 02:26 AM   #11
Erik
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:
Personally, I'd have to say that I am different. If I didn't see emergency vehicles at the scene of an obvious wreck, with obviously injured people, I'd have to say I'd get the hell out my car right after I dialed 911, which is why I find his story hard to believe. It's absurd to think a multitude of human beings would just casually ignore that kind of a disaster and not help without first being persuaded by the injured. I'm sorry, I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but one has to admit that's a pretty tall story.
Sorry, it's the other way around and it's not absurd at all when you think about it. If the accident happened right in front of you, it's different than if you were the 15th car to go by. You might find yourself thinking, "gee, they didn't stop, what do they know that I don't?" It's not that people are callous or don't care, they want to help, but when the external stimuli suggests that no one else is helping, people factor that into their judgement. Plus, with cars, you are already moving as a group and if you stop, you stop traffic. We aren't the rugged individuals we all think we are.

Think about it another way. You are walking down a busy street. A person is sitting on a sidewalk convulsing and shaking but none of the 50 people walking by do anything, would you? Conversely, imagine yourself walking on a trail and you see the same thing. Who is more likely to get your help? The author cites studies (they faked epileptic fits) on this and with one person help was given 85% of the time whereas with 5 it was only 31% of the time.

Get the book, it's by Robert B. Cialdini and it's called "The Psychology of Persuasion" and he's dead on with this and a lot of other things.

It's a great read and now I'll go find a psychology forum.
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Old 12-15-2000, 07:20 AM   #12
REK
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:
Personally, I'd have to say that I am different. If I didn't see emergency vehicles at the scene of an obvious wreck, with obviously injured people, I'd have to say I'd get the hell out my car right after I dialed 911, which is why I find his story hard to believe. It's absurd to think a multitude of human beings would just casually ignore that kind of a disaster and not help without first being persuaded by the injured. I'm sorry, I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but one has to admit that's a pretty tall story.

I am sad to say that it is not a tall story. It is in fact so common, that social scientists have dubbed it the "bystander effect". Many explanations exist, none satisfy everyone. It relates to this post in another way: you can say all you want about aikido, your beliefs and your training, but until you face it, you have no idea what you will do. You can say what you THINK you will do. I, for one, hope you are right.

Rob

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Old 12-15-2000, 09:04 AM   #13
akiy
 
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Quote:
sceptoor wrote:
Personally, I'd have to say that I am different. If I didn't see emergency vehicles at the scene of an obvious wreck, with obviously injured people, I'd have to say I'd get the hell out my car right after I dialed 911, which is why I find his story hard to believe. It's absurd to think a multitude of human beings would just casually ignore that kind of a disaster and not help without first being persuaded by the injured. I'm sorry, I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but one has to admit that's a pretty tall story.
It's not quite what Erik was describing, but check out the pretty famous story about Kitty Genovese who was murdered in Queens in 1964 in plain view of 38 witnesses -- none of whom offered any assistance to her being attacked.

-- Jun

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Old 12-15-2000, 11:30 AM   #14
mjmishou
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If you ask me...

Basically, I agree with the point that people will NOT help if people around them are NOT helping. People as individuals are smart, people as a whole are stupid. It's a harsh thing to say, and even harsher to admit it to myself, but I've done things before because other people are, and anyone here has as well. It's a fact of life. Oh, and by the way. Hi everyone, I'm Mike. I'm new to the board, and hope to start Aikido classes sometime soon, I'm an eight year Kenpo practicioner and I wanted to expand my horizons...and I like Steven Segal. That's about it, cheers.

Mike Mishou
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Old 12-15-2000, 12:19 PM   #15
Erik
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Quote:
akiy wrote:
It's not quite what Erik was describing, but check out the pretty famous story about Kitty Genovese who was murdered in Queens in 1964 in plain view of 38 witnesses -- none of whom offered any assistance to her being attacked.

-- Jun
Kitty Genovese was the basis for this section in Cialdini's book.
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Old 12-15-2000, 12:52 PM   #16
BC
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Wow, I hope I wasn't the cause of this thread drift! If I am I apologize.

Eric, I agree with you. When I stated my hesitance about breaking up a fight, I was referring to the point in a fight where blows were actually being exchanged. I think you are right about being able to intercede when a confrontation is still in the verbal stage.

As far as the part about humans and crowds, I've think it is true that humans are less likely to offer assistance when in a crowd. I've personally witnessed it too many times to say otherwise. Why else do you think people so often refer to human behavior as a "herd" mentality?

-BC

[Edited by BC on December 15, 2000 at 03:24pm]

Robert Cronin
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Old 12-16-2000, 03:26 AM   #17
Robert Cowham
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Intervening

I had an interesting experience once - was on my bike (pushbike) coming up to a junction and this skinny chap on a scooter drew up. Then a rather large guy on a motorbike (typical courier) drew up and started swearing at the scooter guy, talking about how he had cut him up, couldn't ride for peanuts, etc. Then motorbike guy gets off and steps over a couple of yards and tells scooter guy to get off - which he does (bad idea!), at which point swearing is punctuated by pushes to chest. Motor bike guy seemed to be working up to something (road rage I suppose).

Without really thinking, I found myself just pushing my bike between the two of them and standing there. I nodded politely to motorbike buy at how stupid scooter guy was, and after a bit more talking and swearing (no more pushing), everyone got on their bikes and rode off (I told scooter guy to go a different direction!).

What would have happened if he had pushed me - don't know, but I think verbal calming would have been effective too.

Robert
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Old 01-14-2001, 02:25 PM   #18
darin
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Re: are martial artisits peaceful?

Quote:
ian wrote:
Although I've never been in any fights with someone who seems to be really good at martial arts (probably a good reflection on martial artisits as a whole), I've never been in a fight where I've ended up being on the ground. (I was thrown once, but they threw me away and my reverse ukemi had me on my feet in no time).

A few questions really; do fights end up on the floor? and has anyone been the victim of a particularly good martial artist? And, if so, did that make a big difference in your response?

Ian

I can believe that many fights end up on the floor. But its probably due to the guys involved not being very skilled. There is no clean takedown or sacrifice throw, just them tripping over their feet.

Take downs and sutemi (sacrifice throws)are very effective if executed correctly. Their main use is in situations where you are against a bigger, stronger opponent where conventional throws don't work. This isn't ground fighting but where you are using your weight to break joints, slam or choke someone out.

Its a good idea to test your aikido against other styles. Just do some friendly sparring with your mates or have a look at some other schools. Probably the safest way to prepare...

I have never been in a fight outside of a dojo. I have been confronted many times but have always been able to avioid anything by appologizing even if it wasn't my fault. Worked so far... hehehe








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Old 01-14-2001, 05:45 PM   #19
jin
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I think it's true that most fights end up on the ground.

I think it has something to do with wrestling. I remember back in middle school, everyone was required to do a quarter of wrestling in P.E., which was the only form of acceptable fighting there was in school, and for most people, that quarter would be the extent of their combative training for life there after. Also, most of the kids these days watch the WCW, WWF etc. and mimic the moves of there idols. So, I believe that wrestling on the ground is a more natural thing to do when you don't know how to skillfully fight standing up. And you have to admit that probably 95% of people in today's societies have never been trained to fight. Also, "slamming" people on the ground seems to be a popular thing to do. And people tend to do what's more popular.

I've often wondered what would happen if the ref. never seperated boxers after they've gotten into a clinch. I'd like to see a tired boxer try and clinch a grappler.

As far as fights in prison etc. As a youngster, I spent almost 4 years in the California Youth Authority (prison for people up to age 25 (I was 16). All of the fights I saw ended up on the ground. Every single one of them. These guys would start by flailing their arms towards each other, then get into a short clinch, then one or both would attempt to slam the other to the ground either trying to slam them against an object or bash their heads against the ground. Other times, it would be a sneak attack from behind with a sock full of canned goods or batteries. Someone would get knocked to the ground and then the fight would continue there.

I believe that everyone that desires to be able to protect themselves should include ground fighting as a mandatory ingredient in their skills. At least some basic reversals, submissions, and positioning. Because, what if you miss? What if you make a mistake and fall to the ground? You need to know how to safely and effectively get back up.

I also suggest that people who desire to train in Aikido (for self-defense), first train in other forms of MA. A ground fighting art, and a striking art. Even if just for six months or how ever long it takes you to get the basics down and to learn positioning and stances. Just having that experience will give you such an advantage in defending against those types of attackers, and help you understand the purpose of Aikido techniques. I've trained in BJJ (2years), Tai-Chi Chuan(6months), and a family style of mixed Chinese martial arts(6months). Even though these were short periods of time, I trained 8 hours a day 5 days per week(for the chinese arts), and later BJJ several hours per day 5 days per week w/alot of private instruction.

BJJ is awesome 1 on 1, but is almost worthless against multiple attackers. Although, one time I was attacked by two people IRL and it ended up on the ground and I was able to use my ground positioning skills from BJJ to keep these guys at bay and to prevent them from seriously harming me. It's worth it. It saved my life.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. The Aikido instructor at my BJJ school used to attend some of our classes, and he used to get his butt whooped by the BJJ instructor. But then again, I never witnessed the BJJ instructor try and attack the Aikido instructor from a standing position

Rob
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Old 01-15-2001, 06:29 AM   #20
Matt Banks
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Re: Re: are martial artisits peaceful?

Hi there,

You asked if fights often go to the floor. The main reason you hear this line is due to the gracies, rabbiting on about it. I wouldnt agree with it, in the fights Ive seen and been in. If you been do they go to the ground, yes people do go to the deck but there is never any complex grappling going on. The main reason for the this is that it hurts. When on your back on concrete it is really painful. What I do agree with is that most fights are over within 3 seconds. Everyone must understand that just because we practise aikido in a very clean manner doesnt mean the tecniques cannot be applied on the ground etc etc. If you truly know the basics youll be surprised what you pull of in extreme situatiuons. My older brother just got his blue belt in gracie jiu jitsu, this is quite a high grade it normally takes about 2 years I think to get it and youve got to do alot of sparring and competions to earn it. I spare with him every weekend and all the ground locks etc etc are just the same as ours but on the floor. What is more i find it is very easy to become proficient on the floor against the average attacker in a matter of months intensive training. My brother said he feels the stand up aikido stuff to be more affective and I agree. Whenever I get the chance I go to some of his sessions and spar with the guys. Its fun but I definately feel you cant beat a good hard style of aikido. The main thing is the mindset for fighting at aikido, training is so hard I feel I could deal with anything.

find what works for you


Matt Banks







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Old 01-15-2001, 06:53 AM   #21
Matt Banks
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You said that an Aikido instructor got whopped by a bjj guy. That was because he was fighting him at his own game. Let me explain. A tae kwon doe guy could kick someone in the head better than a bjj or aikido guy , if that was the objective. I bet when they faught they started on there knees and had to immediately go to the clinch. By the same token, at a masters day we went to , the bjj abd gjj guys were terrible at weapon defence, grabbing the knife and trying to drag them to the floor, not a good idea. Being stab by the wooden tanto many times. And they had nothing to offer on multiple attacks either, which from a self defence point of view is much more inportant than anything else. I read in a magazine survey (in a police station) that most attcks on people where done by more than one person on the attacker. True most rare 1v1 fights go to the floor due to the fact that both participants in these situations want to continue the fight. But in reality a fight is over in 3 seconds also in the survey, and then the participants flee the site of the incident. That is the main thing we train for in aikido. One attack one tecniqe then leave. Incidently the soke of our club before he died, gained his top students, by them saying they could take soke out, and when they failed miserabley they took up aikido, ill post my story of this at a later date.



Matt Banks

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Old 01-15-2001, 08:59 AM   #22
darin
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Re: Re: Re: are martial artisits peaceful?

Quote:
Matt Banks wrote:
Hi there,

You asked if fights often go to the floor. The main reason you hear this line is due to the gracies, rabbiting on about it. I wouldnt agree with it, in the fights Ive seen and been in. If you been do they go to the ground, yes people do go to the deck but there is never any complex grappling going on. The main reason for the this is that it hurts. When on your back on concrete it is really painful. What I do agree with is that most fights are over within 3 seconds. Everyone must understand that just because we practise aikido in a very clean manner doesnt mean the tecniques cannot be applied on the ground etc etc. If you truly know the basics youll be surprised what you pull of in extreme situatiuons. My older brother just got his blue belt in gracie jiu jitsu, this is quite a high grade it normally takes about 2 years I think to get it and youve got to do alot of sparring and competions to earn it. I spare with him every weekend and all the ground locks etc etc are just the same as ours but on the floor. What is more i find it is very easy to become proficient on the floor against the average attacker in a matter of months intensive training. My brother said he feels the stand up aikido stuff to be more affective and I agree. Whenever I get the chance I go to some of his sessions and spar with the guys. Its fun but I definately feel you cant beat a good hard style of aikido. The main thing is the mindset for fighting at aikido, training is so hard I feel I could deal with anything.

find what works for you


Matt Banks






I think people underestimate their art because they judge it's effectiveness on imaginary fights against highly skilled opponents of other styles. Not many people have a chance against fighters like Rickson Gracie, Sam Greco, Maurice Smith, Mike Tyson or Akebono.

I always advise people to cross train so as to get an idea of what's out there, each style's strengths and weaknesess as well as your own.

I think once you learn the basics of one art its easier to learn another.






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Old 01-16-2001, 11:23 AM   #23
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Re: are martial artisits peaceful?

Quote:
ian wrote:
A few questions really; do fights end up on the floor? and has anyone been the victim of a particularly good martial artist? And, if so, did that make a big difference in your response?
Ian
[/b]
Well Ian, as you probably noticed there will allways be a second side of the coin. Some say allmost all fights go to the ground, either they mean BJJ-style or just knocked, shot or stabbed down, and some people say allmost none of them are. They seem to have personal experience either way so the answer is that there is no clear answer
Since this is a forum for discussions this is what to expect... and take in. All of you that think that you have more or less a true picture of the world, try to listen to what other people have to say and mayby reevaluate your own factes. If all people in the world would do that mayby there wouldn't be wars.

Oops! I got a little carried away!

Jakob Blomquist
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