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Old 09-19-2003, 04:35 PM   #1
Kensai
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Dealing with Shoulder Strikes

Hey all,

Firstly I'd like to say that this thread is run on the assumtion that you see the shoulder strike and have time to counter it.

What would you do to defend against such an attack? I have just downloaded a video from bullshido.com, and a practioner of Bajiquan uses shoulder strikes to down his opponent, I was just thinking what an Aikido responce would be to such a commited and powerful attack.

I was thinking something like a classical kokyu from a strong enterance, or similar foot work as kokyunage but with atemi.

Regards

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 09-19-2003, 05:08 PM   #2
MikeE
 
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Drop down for a good ol' fashioned aiki nage.

Mike Ellefson
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Old 09-21-2003, 09:19 PM   #3
PhilJ
 
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Tenkan irimi-nage, but you'll need to use the head -- watch out for that pesky crunching noise in the neck.

Phillip Johnson
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Old 09-22-2003, 04:08 AM   #4
ian
 
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Oops - I wrote a really long thread assuming that it was attacks to the shoulder, but now I see what you mean.

Yep, very powerful attack. In Taichi usually the concept is - if they avoid the fist use the elbow, if they avoid the elbow use the shoulder. I think aikido has a lot to learn from Taichi and vice versa. In aikido we generally like to keep the distance between us and uke (through extension) whereas the shoulder strike is likely to occur from a short distance. If someone does come in with such a strike the body should be moved around to their back whilst blending. Due to the close contact if this occurs, irimi-nage seems ideal since you just slip to their back. Inside throws could involve koshi nage (esp. the one with the arm between the legs!). Ideally you'd not give them an opportunity to get in close enough for a shoulder strike (at this distance elbow strikes could also be used, and these can be extremely dangerous).

This may also be a question worth asking taichi practitioners since they have sets of counters for each technique. In aikido however, I think we tend to not consider specific technique 'counters' but blending motion which automatically results in an appropriate counter. (the attack technique is often less important than the attackers body motion).

Ian

Last edited by ian : 09-22-2003 at 04:11 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 09-22-2003, 04:09 AM   #5
Kensai
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How would you get the arm for a tenkan irimi?

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 09-22-2003, 07:05 AM   #6
Ghost Fox
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I practice with a 5th dan in Kendo, who also practices Aikido. Whenever we do a Katatetori Waza he does a shoulder strike/block immediately afterwards. Very good motivation to get out of the way, very fun too.

Isn't there something about the shoulder strike/block in the Book of Five Rings?
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Old 09-22-2003, 08:46 AM   #7
PhilJ
 
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Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
How would you get the arm for a tenkan irimi?
I'd take a more traditional approach, one hand pinning the head to my body, the other blending with the striking arm as if it were there.

Iriminage is a play on balance, I don't think I'd need the arm there to help uke fall -- using the head is a place I'd start looking at.

*Phil

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Old 09-22-2003, 08:49 AM   #8
PhilJ
 
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Wait a minute, now I'm confused. Could you describe the shoulder strike? I assumed we were taling about someone dropping one shoulder and charging you, rhino-style.

*Phil

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Old 09-22-2003, 09:01 AM   #9
Kensai
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I'll find a link to the video for you so you can see what I mean, the big guy in the video uses it to hit the little guy on his ass.......

http://www.bullshido.us/ its the first video on the page.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 09-22-2003, 09:17 AM   #10
BKimpel
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That technique does look impressive…when you have a 250 pound guy slam into a 135 pound guy who stands there and takes it (interesting defense)!

Many years ago, my sensei was asked by the newbie of the day (they always ask funny questions), "Is Aikido powerful enough to stop a train?"

My sensei responded with, "Stop a train from hitting you? Yes, it's called tenkan."

But you are confusing sport with self-defense. I strongly suggest that in real life you do not stand there and put your fists up (ala boxer style) and wait for his next strike!

And if your assailant out weighs you by a 100 pounds, you have to seriously assess his intent. Is this a scrap at the local bar, or are you in a back alley? Real danger is going to warrant something more serious. You either run (chances are you'll outrun this guy) or make vital area strikes (to the knee unfortunately) with a guy that size; he won't feel many other atemi.

Sport and self-defense are two different things. What kind of defense are you looking for: One for the MMA sport (which disallows anything effective against jumbo opponents), or one for self-defense (where your objective is to live)?

Bruce

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Old 09-22-2003, 12:53 PM   #11
Kensai
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No offence Bruce, but I'm not looking for a Sport vs TMA debate. Just good counters to such a technique.

Cheers.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 09-22-2003, 01:52 PM   #12
BKimpel
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Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
No offence Bruce, but I'm not looking for a Sport vs TMA debate. Just good counters to such a technique.

Cheers.
Point well taken Chris, not trying to start that

Drum technique. Best defense...no be there.

Tenkan into his shikaku, or irimi into his shikaku - distance and timing (maai) would be essential to make it work. Same defense as a hundred other attacks. Concentrate on the principle not the technique.

And in seeing the whole video, I wouldn't even worry about that technique - the big guy could have finished off the little guy 100 times, but he was just practicing that neat little shoulder check on a willing particpant (he just stood there and took it).

Bruce

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Old 09-22-2003, 02:25 PM   #13
Lyle Bogin
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I have had the opportunity to receive many shoulder strikes on the streets of Brooklyn and Manhattan (I call them "bumps"). Once I was knocked clean on my rear end in a crowd crossing the street in Times Square, ha!

The best thing to do, IMO is relax your knees and take it as far to the outside as possible (away from your heart). Then the bump will spin you instead of topple you, which is fine. It's calming down that's the hardest part.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 09-22-2003, 03:37 PM   #14
Kensai
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Bruce, the 2 gentlemen you see fighting are actually MMA fighters. They post frequently and intelligently at Bullshido, they wont give anything away.

But aside from the character of the 2, thanks for the suggestions.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 09-22-2003, 05:52 PM   #15
BKimpel
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Freaky!

Quote:
Michael Ellefson (MikeE) wrote:
Drop down for a good ol' fashioned aiki nage.
Personally, that's one thing I wouldn't do with a guy who outweighs me by that much.

Chances are he'll just topple on you -- then your toast. Just lying on you he has the advantage of weight.

While the shoulder check is a committed attack, only his side is facing you -- not his front. Remember the shikaku (dead angle). I see this attack as a standard linear thrust, no different than tsuki. His stance is very strong to the front (as demonstrated from the impact), including his footwork so his sides are weak (shikaku). You need to go inside (tenkan) or outside (irimi) -- then accelerate him forward once you are off the line of fire.

That's just me though, I am not saying you are wrong -- I just wouldn't want that guy on top of me with me prone.

Bruce

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Old 09-22-2003, 07:16 PM   #16
PeterR
 
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Ushiro-ate any size.

Shime-waza if the person was comparable or smaller.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-22-2003, 08:27 PM   #17
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Ushiro-ate any size.

Shime-waza if the person was comparable or smaller.
Just what I were thinking, you beat me to the punch again Peter. Aigamae/Gyakugamae ate shime waza comes to mind as well.

Gedan ate works quite nicely with a shoulder strike, with the arms down, they get pinned as you throw.

Also, a well timed shomen ate across the weak line would work well. In fact, we sometimes train to do shomen ate (without using the hands) in a similar fashion to that shoulder thrust in the video to practice the legwork and get the same degree of penetration. When the hands (sho tei) are applied, the range is increased while generating the same level of power.

All good in my book.

Arigato Gozaimashita

L.C.

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Old 09-26-2003, 12:28 AM   #18
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Re: Dealing with Shoulder Strikes

Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
Hey all,

Firstly I'd like to say that this thread is run on the assumtion that you see the shoulder strike and have time to counter it.
I'm having some trouble seeing stuff on bullshido. Which clip exactly are you refering to? I can see Asia vs. Luan and Skummer vs. Osiris on the first page, but I can't see to d/l them.

Or is it another clip altogether?
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Old 09-26-2003, 05:57 AM   #19
Kensai
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It its the Asia Vs Luan one. They should download, as I understand it, the website is having a lot of work done on it, so thats why they might not download.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 09-26-2003, 12:56 PM   #20
bob_stra
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Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
It its the Asia Vs Luan one. They should download, as I understand it, the website is having a lot of work done on it, so thats why they might not download.
Ok, got it. But I'm still somewhat confused. There are at least 4 types of "shoulder strike" that I see.

The first one occurs at 14 seconds in. The guy in the white shorts two hand pushes on the other guys shoulder to get him out of clinch.

There a shoulder push and trip at 25 seconds in. Mr No shirt does a ok rear roll (better than I would under the circumstances!)

A nice one at 1:18 Guy goes flying. Looks like a 1 inch punch.

A shoulder butt at 1:57

I'm guessing you mean the last one?

Frankly, it's all academic for me. I have no idea what the appropriate aikido response at that point is. Personally, I'd try to latch onto his neck (elbow collar tie), then switch to a one-on-one wrist grab while still encircling his head with other hand. I'd try to keep the head control by wrapping my fingers around his occuput and drapping my arm down his neck, so that my elbow was into his solar plexus. That puts my bones against his muscle.

By that stage, I'd imagine you could insert a few choice projections of your own. Kaiten nage, ude garamai, shiho nage and irimi nage all seem possible in theory. All I can see are judo throws based on imbolizing a limb and standing within the guys triangle point ;-(

I'm curious. Do any of the aikidoka here actually go at it like these two during their training sessions? If so, could you share your experiences with us?
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Old 09-26-2003, 02:52 PM   #21
Kensai
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Actually, yesterday was my first full contact session. Ofcourse with Aikido attacks, but it was excellent fun.

I got caught alot with those subtle tsuki's to the gut. But I got the hang of them eventually. We were studying a change from tenchi nage into a kokyunage on the other punch arm and maintain good arm to arm contact ala taichi sticky hands.

Also forward break falling from Yonkyo's and then changing into kokyunage variations in Hanmi hatachi waza and as you come out of the break fall turn strait back at them for Tsuki. Also lots of counters to Ikkyo, Nikkyo and Sankyos and putting all that together into Jiyu waza.

You know when you get pushed to that point when you think your chest it going to implode, explode and implode again, that being said, I loved every minute of it.

I've also done contact with out strikes against Judoka, ie Judo Randori, with my Aikido. Seemed to work better sometimes than others, but I wouldnt wanna win all the time, poor Judoka..... lol... please dont let any of them read this.

But dont you find how easy it is for everything you've learned to just disappear. I havent been doing Aikido all that long at all, so I shouldnt be suprised, but its strange how quickly you try to grapple someone instead of moving for Irimi or Tenkan.....

Regards,

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 09-26-2003, 03:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
But dont you find how easy it is for everything you've learned to just disappear. ...its strange how quickly you try to grapple someone instead of moving for Irimi or Tenkan.....

Regards,
Maybe there's some wisdom in that, you know....
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