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Old 09-16-2003, 03:16 PM   #1
Kieun
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shodokan learning

Hi, I understand that Shodokan is Tomiki'a understanding of aikido and judo and some blending of the two thereof (or am I wrong - please correct me if I am). I was curious as to how Shodokan classes are taught - in the sense that since it is called Shodokan Aikido, is the curriculum mostly aikido techniques? How is Judo aspect integrated? Are Judo techniques taught at all or separately, or are they somehow incorporated into the aikido learning (have no idea how)? Thanks.
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Old 09-16-2003, 06:11 PM   #2
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Re: shodokan learning

Quote:
Kieun Kim (Kieun) wrote:
Hi, I understand that Shodokan is Tomiki'a understanding of aikido and judo and some blending of the two thereof (or am I wrong - please correct me if I am). I was curious as to how Shodokan classes are taught - in the sense that since it is called Shodokan Aikido, is the curriculum mostly aikido techniques? How is Judo aspect integrated? Are Judo techniques taught at all or separately, or are they somehow incorporated into the aikido learning (have no idea how)? Thanks.
Hi Kieun,

You've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm afraid. Shodokan is Prof. Tomiki's take on aikido, just aikido. The Shodokan syllabus is all aikido techniques, there's no judo involved at all.

(Well, unless you happen to believe that aikido and judo are basically the same thing, but maybe we shouldn't go there! )

Could it be that you're thinking of Yoseikan Aiki-budo? Jigoro Kano actually sent some students of his to train under Morihei Ueshiba, and a lot of people think that Tomiki was one of them, but he wasn't. Minoru Mochizuki was though, and when he founded Yoseikan I believe he incorporated judo and also some karate techniques into his system.

I don't have any first hand experience of Yoseikan though, so if it is Yoseikan you're thinking of, I'm afraid I can't answer your question.

Sean

x
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Old 09-16-2003, 07:00 PM   #3
Kieun
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Well, I actually was thinking of Shodokan as in Tomiki style aikido, but I was always under the impression that Tomiki's judo influence carried into his interpretation of aikido. I guess I stand corrected. So in that case, in Shodokan classes there are no Judo techniques that are practiced?

As for Yoseikan, yes I have heard of it and I guess I would also ask the same question for it then - how are the Judo/Karate techniques integrated into teh aikido? Are they treated as...separate "chapters" (as in "today, we will learn karate style kicks, and next week we will go back to shihonage, and the week after that will be Judo" etc)? Or are the actual karate/judo techniques done in some aikido-like way? Thanks for any input.
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Old 09-16-2003, 08:07 PM   #4
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Kieun Kim (Kieun) wrote:
Well, I actually was thinking of Shodokan as in Tomiki style aikido, but I was always under the impression that Tomiki's judo influence carried into his interpretation of aikido. I guess I stand corrected. So in that case, in Shodokan classes there are no Judo techniques that are practiced?
Well no and yes. No more than you see in any other Aikido dojo. Take a look at the Kodokan Judo sylabus and there is a lot there very familiar to us Aikido folks.

But Sean of course is right - Tomiki kept his Judo and Aikido separated by more than just distance. Generally speaking the grappling, throwing and ground techniques used in Judo randori are not found in Shodokan Aikido.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-16-2003, 09:25 PM   #5
bob_stra
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Quote:
Kieun Kim (Kieun) wrote:
As for Yoseikan, yes I have heard of it and I guess I would also ask the same question for it then - how are the Judo/Karate techniques integrated into teh aikido?
Right along side it. No seperation.

(1) He does this, I do that (aikido)

(2) But as I'm doing that, then he does THIS!! So I do this (judo)

(3) But THEN HE GOES AND DOES THAT!! So I hit him like this (Karate)

Start at any point and mix to you wills content ;-)
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Old 09-17-2003, 01:58 AM   #6
ian
 
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It is worth reading Jigoro Kano's book ('Kodokan Judo') to see interesting relationships between aikido and judo. Incidently Ueshiba also did Judo (traditional Kodokan Judo). Many of the hip throws are similar to Judo. Also in Kano's book you see rockyu being used repeatedly as a self defence technique and also techniques used 'when wearing armour' (which tend to be much more upright, and no leg sweeps...remind you of anything?)

Ian

P.S. I've done kote-gaeshi in shotokan karate, ude-garami in taekwondo, ikkyo in tai-chi and tenchi-nage in judo...aikido is different only in emphasis and method of training.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 09-17-2003, 02:59 AM   #7
Bronson
 
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Would you guys say that Tomiki took teaching methodologies (full resistance randori, shiai, etc) from judo and brought them to his aikido practice?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 09-17-2003, 03:19 AM   #8
PeterR
 
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The original question was about techniques but yes you could say that Tomiki was inspired by Kodokan training methods.

Randori, shiai, kata, even the use of drills were not invented by Kano but certainly Tomiki looked in that direction when formulating his system. His early students were all Judo men so they were already very familiar with the training concepts and of course Tomiki came from the same background.

Here is the point of why Judo and Aikido techniques are not mixed, especially in randori. The whole point of randori is to improve your Aikido - if you include Judo techniques the situation will very quickly favour the use of the latter. That's natural in that grappling distance is much easier to achieve and maintain especially for lower level Aikido students and especially if those students come from a Judo background.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-17-2003, 12:44 PM   #9
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
It is worth reading Jigoro Kano's book ('Kodokan Judo') to see interesting relationships between aikido and judo. Incidently Ueshiba also did Judo (traditional Kodokan Judo). Many of the hip throws are similar to Judo. Also in Kano's book you see rockyu being used repeatedly as a self defence technique and also techniques used 'when wearing armour' (which tend to be much more upright, and no leg sweeps...remind you of anything?)
Its an excellent book, I'd second your recommendation, I think most aikidoists would find something of interest in there.

Now that you mention the techniques for use 'when wearing armour' - the koshiki-no-kata is actually cited as the basis of some of the techniques in the randori-no-kata (aka junanahon ) on the Shodokan honbu website. (Its in the notes alongside the animated tanto randori no kata on this page.)

I guess you could say thats a pretty clear example of a Kodokan influence on Shodokan aikido. But I definitely dont consider those techniques to be judo techniques per se.

Sean
x

ps: Kieun, if you're interested, theres a lot more information on how Mr Tomiki saw the relationship between judo and aikido here if you click on the various links above the chart.

Last edited by deepsoup : 09-17-2003 at 12:50 PM.
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