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Old 10-30-2004, 06:16 PM   #76
Qatana
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

hmmm,Toga breathing.

Q
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Old 10-30-2004, 08:30 PM   #77
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

You guys have many points there and much respect to your reply to my quote.But I do and felt the power of ki>What I was trying to say though is that it is completely natural.We are born with that ki energy..What is pissing me off though is when people take that term and want it to be spiritual or whatever.It is simply a matter of understanding ki principles vs becoming a spiritual ki god full of powers..
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Old 10-31-2004, 01:18 AM   #78
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

ahhh...I have learned in my short life that whatever is pissing you off is your problem, not the other persons.

Aikido, IMHO, does a wonderful job of showing us that it is extremely difficult to force our will on other people.

And also, why bother.

who cares what other people find in KI? to you it is simply energy. To others it becomes something deep and spiritual. What does it really matter.

Moderation is the key (KI). On the extreme side someone who walks around the world pointing at objects thinking that he can move them with his mind and KI projection is probably deluded by his own ego. So be it.

How does that impact you? It really becomes the equivilant of the "emperors new clothes".

I do find "spiritual powers" within KI personally. I reallly don't understand how you cannot if you believe that life energy permeates all that exist and everything is interconnected. But that is me.

Somedays I do not feel spiritual and to me it is simply energy.

Again, to eaches own. We all as aikidoka must work together and be patient and cooperative with each other to learn this wonderful art. That means listening and understanding to me.
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Old 11-02-2004, 06:28 PM   #79
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:

who cares what other people find in KI? to you it is simply energy. To others it becomes something deep and spiritual. What does it really matter.

...

How does that impact you? It really becomes the equivilant of the "emperors new clothes".

....

Again, to eaches own. We all as aikidoka must work together and be patient and cooperative with each other to learn this wonderful art. That means listening and understanding to me.
It doesn't matter what YOU, I, or ANYONE believe about something. The truth is out there, and there is only one truth. I can believe with all my heart that the sky is green while someone else may believe it's pink. Doesn't change the fact that it's actually blue.

I try to find the truth to everything I can. I've found the truth to life, and I'd like to find the truth behind ki. ..And there is a truth, no matter what we feeeeel. I don't claim to have that truth about it at this time, but please don't act like everyone can be right about ki when everybody's ideas totally contradict eachother.



*Sarah*
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Old 11-02-2004, 06:35 PM   #80
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Miguel Angel wrote:
Chi or KI, is the universal energy, and we are an essential part of that universe. How could that be bad or evil?
... yes, but how do you know that's what ki/chi is?
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Old 11-02-2004, 08:01 PM   #81
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Because O'Sensei Said So

Q
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Old 11-02-2004, 09:21 PM   #82
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Sarah Bova wrote:
... yes, but how do you know that's what ki/chi is?
Hi Sarah,

To start - if you've really found the truth to life, then I'd think Ki would be a no brainer. Just something to think about.

As far as "knowing truth" goes, this is based a lot on perception imo. We can only truly know anything when our perception is clear (or developed) enough to see something in it's true and basic form (something I think very very few humans if any are actually able to do, since our unconscious and subconscious minds can create many illusions that appear very real to us on the conscious level). I believe Ueshiba alluded to this and there are elements of this reality (about clearing perception to see the truth) indicated in the bible as well.

The truth is, how do you know that anything is true? What are the criteria? Does someone ancient and wise have to tell us? Does the concept have to stand up to scientific challenge and scrutiny to be true? Or do we "just know" what is true? Do our bodies truly exist or is it really an expression of energy projected from another consciousness level at a vibrational frequency that makes matter become manifest, making it appear real and true?

Imho truth itself is often a matter of perception and there are psychological tests to back this up from what I've read (finding them can be another problem though I think).

The basic definition of ki that we have heard is "energy". If we take a look at physics, matter is basically energy vibrating at a certain high frequency. So to extend the concept, one may say that matter is in essence energy. This may have something to do with the claims that ki is all around us, inside us etc. etc. etc. As such, if the various manifested religious icons (Christ, Bodidharma, Muhammad, Elvis etc. ) existed in this physical universe, chances are they were made up of ki, in that they were beings of matter and by extension, energy. So this places an interesting dimension on the Good/Bad concept. If ki is evil and your personal saviour/prophet etc. was created from it in the physical world, what does it mean?

Personally I take a little bit of issue with those who see the world in black and white, right and wrong, the devil and God, as if in the event something is not one, it is automatically the other. Ki simply is, it exists. Just like air exists, light exists, natural elements exist. Depending on how one uses these things it can be used for good or evil purposes. If mankind did not walk the Earth and manipulate them, these things would still be existing in their natural states all things being equal.

There are people who use ki for healing, others who use it for destruction. It all depends on what you are healing or destroying. Most people don't use it at all, it's just there, existing, doing whatever it does.

So to me, searching for the truth about ki is not so important as knowing our own truth about it and really understanding why we believe it to be true. We may even go further to test the veracity of our truth by systematically challenging it's foundations. True things have a way of withstanding the various tests of time imo.

Quote:
I can believe with all my heart that the sky is green while someone else may believe it's pink. Doesn't change the fact that it's actually blue.
Of course the colour blue is a human definition of a particular mixture of light as seen through eyes that perceive mixtures of red, blue and green. Suppose our natural sight as a species saw the exact same sky from an entirely different light spectrum, would it still be blue or a colour we have yet to define? Because we can perceive something does not mean that we are perceiving the totality of that thing, only what we are capable of perceiving based on our limitations as a species.

Just my thoughts. Reality is what you make it. Ki simply is - good or bad depends on you, much like everything else.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:36 AM   #83
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Because O'Sensei Said So
right .. and how did he know? He was just a man .. how can you hang so tightly on just another man's words? From what you all say about him, I have no doubts that he was very wise ...but even wise men are faulty because they are still human.


*Sarah*
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:48 AM   #84
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Larry,
Thanks for the reply. It will take me a while to gather my thoughts about everything you've said, but I do have to say that a lot of the things you said make sense. I don't know yet that I agree, but you are the only one I think so far that has given me an explanation opposing my view that is actually thoroghly thought out. I will get back to you. Might take me a little bit.

~Sarah
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Old 11-03-2004, 09:10 AM   #85
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Sarah that was a Joke.
Sorry, i don't use smilies.
But just because something is in the Bible, how does anyone know its the truth, either?
I did give you the same answer as Larry in the other thread you asked this question in...

Q
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Old 11-03-2004, 12:08 PM   #86
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Jo Adell wrote:
Sarah that was a Joke.
Sorry, i don't use smilies.
But just because something is in the Bible, how does anyone know its the truth, either?
I did give you the same answer as Larry in the other thread you asked this question in...

Firstly, I'm sorry ... honestly, I haven't found what you've said in this thread that was like Larry's, but I believe you feel the same way. I just meant only his response gave me even a little reason (evidence) to consider other thoughts. (from the responses I've seen) Show me what you posted and I'd like to honestly read it ..because I didn't mean to offend you. If you did say the same thing, I'm sorry for being a snob. It's not your fault if I just didn't see it.

Also, I recommed the smileys They're just a click away, and they really do add feeling to what you type ...and prove to be less confusing to those of us who are a bit ditzy.

The reason I didn't take it as a joke is because quite a few of the replies I've come across suggest that if Osensai said it, it's true and right.

Ok, so people have been trying to prove the Bible wrong for many years, but nobody has been able to do so. Lee Strobel (author of Case for Christ) dedicated himself to proving Christianity a myth and the Bible wrong, and became a Christian in the process. When your goal is to find truth, it won't hide from you. If you study the truth, lies will become more obvious. (ex. the professionals who can recognize counterfeit money don't study counterfeits ...they strongly study real money.) If the Bible had even just one mistake, I would have to chuck it in the garbage. Everything provable in the Bible has been proven right, and some things you have to accept by faith. If the "provable" things are correct, I have good reason to have faith in the aspects that require my faith. But if there were one probable error (like a scientific error), my faith would surely be based on a lie ... which would be pointless.

How do you know the Bible isn't true? How do you know there isn't a truth? You all basically say truths are relative, not absolute. (there are no absolute truths), right? ..but by saying that, aren't you proving yourselves wrong? By saying "there are no truths" or "truths are relative" ...your statement is absolute ... Can we live without truths..? If not, there has to be wrongs..?


~Sarah
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Old 11-03-2004, 12:24 PM   #87
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Of course the colour blue is a human definition of a particular mixture of light as seen through eyes that perceive mixtures of red, blue and green. Suppose our natural sight as a species saw the exact same sky from an entirely different light spectrum, would it still be blue or a colour we have yet to define? Because we can perceive something does not mean that we are perceiving the totality of that thing, only what we are capable of perceiving based on our limitations as a species.

Just my thoughts. Reality is what you make it. Ki simply is - good or bad depends on you, much like everything else.

LC
eee, thanks for pointing out my poor anology. I didn't think of it like that. Right now, I'm thinking there are things in life that are opinion, or different to different people depending on how we preceive them. But aren't all opinions and perceptions based on a truth? Like, people can have all the opinions about something they want, but underneath it all lies a truth..? Isn't it possible to have different perceptions about a lie and different perceptions about a truth? But none-th-less there is still a truth involved? Do you get what I'm saying ...or am I confusing..?


--Sarah

ps. do you believe ki is a supernatural energy..?
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Old 11-03-2004, 12:44 PM   #88
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

how do you define supernatural?
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Old 11-03-2004, 04:03 PM   #89
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
how do you define supernatural?
like outside our natural world. a world that our natural human minds can't fully understand. the world where God, satan, spirits and angels exist ...do you believe that?
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Old 11-03-2004, 04:09 PM   #90
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

there are no truths <-- so that's true?
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Old 11-03-2004, 07:01 PM   #91
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

[quote=Thomas Dixon]Martial Arts are the Devil!!!QUOTE]

I found this article to be a correct description of the asian martial arts, especially Aikido. The author clearly understands the spiritual concepts of Aikido in a way that many Aikido practitioners themselves do not. I just disagree with him on whether it is good or not. I am seriously thinking about copying the article, cutting out the (faux) Christianity stuff and using it as a definition of correct Aikido. I`m not kidding.

Charles Hill
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Old 11-03-2004, 07:08 PM   #92
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Sarah Eliz* wrote:
Right now, I'm thinking there are things in life that are opinion, or different to different people depending on how we preceive them. But aren't all opinions and perceptions based on a truth? Like, people can have all the opinions about something they want, but underneath it all lies a truth..? Isn't it possible to have different perceptions about a lie and different perceptions about a truth? But none-th-less there is still a truth involved? Do you get what I'm saying ...or am I confusing..?
Exactly Sarah.

Imo the absolute underlying truth exists and it is there all the time in our faces. It's just that I don't think that the nature of the human mind allows for a clear and definite perception of this truth easily, since the real truth actually exists beneath all the facades we subconsciously construct from a very early age as members of society, religions, families and other influences. We are from the very beginning affected by all the other constructs of our reality that starts to influence and change our basic, unassuming primordial perception as we grow older and become more immersed in the "material" or "manifest" world.

What this does (again alluded to by Ueshiba M. and Christ as well) is create a "dark glass" so to speak, a system of filters (aka the subconscious and conscious aspects of the mind) that takes in the raw, unadulterated truth and edits, modifies, censors and refines this information into something that is more palatable to our present state of mind and view of reality. As such, when in a "conscious" state we are in fact unconscious of what is really going on and only get what our self-created internal filter systems have allowed us to see.

So I agree with you, i think the truth is always there, I just don't think that the vast majority of the time we see it for exactly what it is, without the filters. Who we refer to as genii, wise men, seers etc. may be people who have been able to eliminate some of the filters, maybe even all of them to see the "real" as is, therefore being able to function in a manner that may seem supernatural to us. But this is not supernatural, it is merely the common realm of a trained and evolved mind, something all of us are capable of.

In a spiritual context (not a religious one mind you), one may see God (or the original entity that may have started creation in the first place) as the unadulterated truth and the teachings of any religion as man's perception of that truth as handed down through history by wise and learned people who shared in the same understanding and perception etc.

Getting back to the blue sky analogy. For people who wear red tinted sunglasses, the sky may appear purple. If they had been wearing red lenses from birth, everything would take on a red tinge. The sky would appear purple. For those people without the red lenses, the sky appears blue. The colour of the sky is true to both sets of people. Neither person is more correct than the other, since both are looking through filter systems that limit their perception of the whole. The person who looks with the naked eye may see more true colour, but he is still limited to the red, blue green colour spectrum of the eye itself as indicated earlier.

There are various levels of clarity and therefore many levels of perception itself, and they are all "true" to some degree on a localised, personal level. The interesting part with human beings starts when one decides to tell the other that what he is perceiving is in fact incorrect. Incorrect by whose standard? Isn't the other person's perception limited as well?

Quote:
Sarah Eliz* wrote:
ps. do you believe ki is a supernatural energy..?
Nope, since I believe that there is no such thing as a supernatural reality, only what is not yet found to be natural by the human conscious self. The words "super natural" alludes to "that which is outside of the natural functioning of the world". It in fact means "that which is outside of our perception of what is the functioning of the natural world". In my humble opinion of course.

Just my 5 cents.
LC

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Old 11-03-2004, 10:21 PM   #93
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Sarah Eliz* wrote:
like outside our natural world. a world that our natural human minds can't fully understand. the world where God, satan, spirits and angels exist ...do you believe that?
No because if I use contemporary logic it goes like this:

God created the universe, there for the universe is god.

Our world is a part of the universe, our world is god.

My philosophy has god, or the concept of god as everything.

If you believe that god is the supreme being in the universe and that the earth was literally create by him, then how can you say that there is anything that is outside of God's realm?

So I believe there is no such thing as supernatural. Concepts such as demons, angels, etc. would be a part of god, just like KI would be. Everything in the universe is unified and interrealated.

Many things are too complex for the human brain to really grasp, and that is okay.

That is my view of things.
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Old 11-04-2004, 04:51 PM   #94
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Exactly Sarah.

Imo the absolute underlying truth exists and it is there all the time in our faces. It's just that I don't think that the nature of the human mind allows for a clear and definite perception of this truth easily, since the real truth actually exists beneath all the facades we subconsciously construct from a very early age as members of society, religions, families and other influences. We are from the very beginning affected by all the other constructs of our reality that starts to influence and change our basic, unassuming primordial perception as we grow older and become more immersed in the "material" or "manifest" world.

What this does (again alluded to by Ueshiba M. and Christ as well) is create a "dark glass" so to speak, a system of filters (aka the subconscious and conscious aspects of the mind) that takes in the raw, unadulterated truth and edits, modifies, censors and refines this information into something that is more palatable to our present state of mind and view of reality. As such, when in a "conscious" state we are in fact unconscious of what is really going on and only get what our self-created internal filter systems have allowed us to see.

So I agree with you, i think the truth is always there, I just don't think that the vast majority of the time we see it for exactly what it is, without the filters. Who we refer to as genii, wise men, seers etc. may be people who have been able to eliminate some of the filters, maybe even all of them to see the "real" as is, therefore being able to function in a manner that may seem supernatural to us. But this is not supernatural, it is merely the common realm of a trained and evolved mind, something all of us are capable of.

In a spiritual context (not a religious one mind you), one may see God (or the original entity that may have started creation in the first place) as the unadulterated truth and the teachings of any religion as man's perception of that truth as handed down through history by wise and learned people who shared in the same understanding and perception etc.

Getting back to the blue sky analogy. For people who wear red tinted sunglasses, the sky may appear purple. If they had been wearing red lenses from birth, everything would take on a red tinge. The sky would appear purple. For those people without the red lenses, the sky appears blue. The colour of the sky is true to both sets of people. Neither person is more correct than the other, since both are looking through filter systems that limit their perception of the whole. The person who looks with the naked eye may see more true colour, but he is still limited to the red, blue green colour spectrum of the eye itself as indicated earlier.

There are various levels of clarity and therefore many levels of perception itself, and they are all "true" to some degree on a localised, personal level. The interesting part with human beings starts when one decides to tell the other that what he is perceiving is in fact incorrect. Incorrect by whose standard? Isn't the other person's perception limited as well?



Nope, since I believe that there is no such thing as a supernatural reality, only what is not yet found to be natural by the human conscious self. The words "super natural" alludes to "that which is outside of the natural functioning of the world". It in fact means "that which is outside of our perception of what is the functioning of the natural world". In my humble opinion of course.

Just my 5 cents.
LC

See, actually ... after thinking about it all, I do agree with your sky analogy ... the way you explained it. Now this is where you and probably many others may totally disagree with me, but I do believe there is one way to see that "truth" ... to remove those "colored lenses". But not by anything we do. (ex. training our mind) We are only human, and, just as I have heard a lot on this board, there are some things our human minds just can't know. Not without help, at least, as I believe. That's why I believe the Bible is our "guide book". I know I just mentioned the Bible and that seems to be a no-no here (well, to actually take it seriously) ..but just bare with me. Jesus was the only one who claimed to be the way. The others that I know of claimed to know the way ..but only one claimed to be the way. (correct me if I'm wrong)

I also know that so many say that it all doesn't mean He is really, actually "the way". He could have been psycho or a big liar. But firstly, he was the only one who claimed to be the way, and historical studies have been done that give evidence that He wasn't crazy (I recommend reading Case for Christ ) .. and for those who say he was just a "good man". a "good man" wouldn't lie. And if he's not the way.. wow, that is a pretty big lie. So, anyway, isn't it at least worth a try to look into it? What if He really can remove those colored sun glasses, and open up your eyes? I know you don't believe it, but just suppose there was one way to see clearly and remove the lenses ... wouldn't you want to?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
The interesting part with human beings starts when one decides to tell the other that what he is perceiving is in fact incorrect. Incorrect by whose standard? Isn't the other person's perception limited as well?
I actually totally agree with you there. I believe that when humans use what they see with their lenses and claim them to be truth, things are confusing. That's why I feel we can't see clearly on our own. We can't go by our standards alone. Our standards need a bigger basis ..

Oh, and back to the whole lenses thing .. the Bible actually uses that. When Saul became a follower of Christ (then Paul), the Bible says "..and the scales from his eyes were removed .." So the Bible is in agreement of the fact that we are blinded from the basic truth. But it also says there is one way for our eyes to be opened.

Doesn't it make sense that all ideas form from one truth? I believe that's why there are so many religions and ideas (philosophies) out there ... because they are a result of us trying to do things on our own. (as humans) Isn't that how gossip starts ... there is one true story, but then people don't understand it, twist it, add to it, delete from it, or totally change it .. and then the result is a whole bunch of false rumors.

Also, I do believe in a supernatural world ... but you knew that, right? Do you believe you have a soul? I do ..and that they are supernatural. Your physical body will die ... but does your soul die too? I believe that your physical body is a physical "home" for your supernatural soul ...but when your body dies, your soul goes on ...somewhere else. (the supernatural world). And knowing the "truth" on earth determines where your soul goes.

What do you think about all this?



*~Sarah~*
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Old 11-04-2004, 05:12 PM   #95
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
No because if I use contemporary logic it goes like this:

God created the universe, there for the universe is god.

Our world is a part of the universe, our world is god.

My philosophy has god, or the concept of god as everything.

If you believe that god is the supreme being in the universe and that the earth was literally create by him, then how can you say that there is anything that is outside of God's realm?

So I believe there is no such thing as supernatural. Concepts such as demons, angels, etc. would be a part of god, just like KI would be. Everything in the universe is unified and interrealated.

Many things are too complex for the human brain to really grasp, and that is okay.

That is my view of things.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
If you believe that god is the supreme being in the universe and that the earth was literally create by him, then how can you say that there is anything that is outside of God's realm?
because I don't believe the supernatural world is outside His realm. I believe everything, natural and supernatural alike, was created by Him.

I also agree with you that God created the universe ... but how does that make the universe God? Doesn't it just make the universe God's creation? I can paint a picture, but that doesn't make the picture me. It shows my talent, ability, and creativity (which is all a part of me) ...but the picture is not me. Our world is also a creation of God. Not God, but His creation. Everything is just a little illustration of what God can do. Maybe you could say everything is a reflection of God ...but it is not Him.

Everything created has to have a creator ..every design a designer. So I don't believe I am my own god because God created me ... but rather God created me, and I should focus on Him ....


*~ Sarah~*
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Old 11-04-2004, 06:45 PM   #96
Hiros_Angel
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Basically, with the whole "relative" concept that you all believe ...it doesn't matter what anyone thinks it true. So who really cares? In the end, it doesn't even matter, right? What's the purpose of anything? Life is just life, and then what ...who cares? But what if what I believe really is true? Then in the end, it really does matter. Wouldn't you rather be safe then sorry? Why not learn more about why Christians believe what they do ... and learn more about the only one (Jesus) who claimed to be THE way? Some of you may laugh, be sarcastic, or take all this lightly ...but seriously.. think about it. :-/ I mean, if I'm right and there really is one way, and there really is more to life, it's not gonna be funny when you find out too late. Evidence is important in life .. and there is quite a bit out there.(in most cases, very close by) I mean, think what you will, but why not dig into this "way" ...seriously get into it, even with an attitude ... see what happens :-/ <3
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Old 11-04-2004, 07:24 PM   #97
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Sarah Bova wrote:
Wouldn't you rather be safe then sorry?
Please don't take this the wrong way... but I really do hope that this isn't the motivation of your belief.

As to ki, I'll keep out of the discussion, since I don't really believe in the idea in a meaningful way for this discussion...

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:15 PM   #98
Hiros_Angel
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote:
Please don't take this the wrong way... but I really do hope that this isn't the motivation of your belief.

As to ki, I'll keep out of the discussion, since I don't really believe in the idea in a meaningful way for this discussion...

kvaak
Pauliina
oh, no ... that is definately my motivation. I just hoped that maybe for others who have a totally different idea, going into the search with that mind set might reveal the real motivation. But no, I definately didn't mean to come across like that ... I can't even begin to describe why I need this faith ..and even if i could, and then did ... I dunno if it would matter. <33
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:20 PM   #99
Kristian Miller-Karlsen
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Aikido is a path devoted to the reconciliation of humankind. A path based on love, harmony and balance.

Christianity is a way of life based on the reconciliation of humankind to God, and of human being to human being. A path based on love and the following of certain laws and obligations.

I am certain that Jesus said that if struck, you must turn the other cheek. In Aikido we turn the cheek before it is struck.

The practice of Aikido does not impose anything on it's practitioners. It does ask however that a practitoiner maintain and practice methods/techniques based on harmony, love and respect for all of humankind. To practice Aikido one does not need to renounce any religious, political or social beliefs,provided that those beliefs are based on harmony, love and respect.

I deeply respect the teachings of Jesus. He was the same in word and deed. The followers of Jesus therefore must also be the same in word and deed, based on the life of Christ.

God is present in all our surroundings. We know God is everywhere because we are sustained. Our food, the air we breath, the very beating of our hearts are indications of Gods presence. God's essence is in all things.

To think that God would destroy us for practicing an art of peace is laughable.

No I am not a Christian. I believe in God and tolerance of others beliefs. Peace is peace, not war.
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:01 PM   #100
Hiros_Angel
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Sarah Bova wrote:
oh, no ... that is definately my motivation.
...definately NOT******
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