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Old 10-04-2003, 05:35 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Several people of already stated it above, and very well might I add.

KI is Energy. Energy can be neither positive or negative in nature it just is energy.

Energy can be directed in the wrong way (negatively).

For those that believe in the typcial christian concept of God and Christ, they can be KI as well. Because KI is all encompasing in the universe. everything is KI.

Some one above said that KI was a foriegn concept to the Christian Dogma. Not really, just explained in different ways.

As far as dreams go. Yes they probably are figuratively a result of KI. Remember KI is everything.

From a western standpoint you probably are feeling some sort of guilt or apprehension towards the changes you made in your life, possibly starting to study aikido??? It will probably take some time to reconcile your mind! Hang in there.

I think at somepoint in everyone's martial arts career when they move from simply practicing an external art to internalizing it, they experience a life shift that causes them a great deal of turmoil.

If you read some of Saotome Sensei's writings he expresses it.

Good luck and sweet dreams!

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Old 10-07-2003, 03:08 AM   #27
Steven Tame
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Ok I think I have figured out the reason for the bad dreams.... maybe

since I`m living in Japan now which I don`t usually it seems that everytime there is a small tremor/earthquake I get bad dreams of somekind.

Probably cos I`m not used to earthquakes at all and it sub-conciously scares me.

The other night I had a dream in which I was trying to do imimi nage but I couldn`t throw the person for some reason they seemed to have a force around them... then all of a sudden I was attacked by a wild animal of some kind... very odd but it was a bit scary at the time.
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Old 10-18-2003, 05:43 PM   #28
Kensho Furuya
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Offer an "O-Sonae" or an offering for flowers, or a couple of fruit or a small glass of sake to O'Sensei's picture, and all the bad dreams will go away. . . . . it always works!
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Old 10-20-2003, 01:50 PM   #29
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
() wrote:
In my experience after I started training in Aikido "ki" exercises I started having very bad demonic nightmares... much like in Bruce lee's Dragon... Now is this a coinsidence, dreams are strange things and maybe just the fact that I have seen Dragon and have also heard rumours/opinion that Bruce lee died an early death cos he couldn't control his "ki" power...
Dude. Get off the drugs. Now.

Or get into some serious analysis and therapy.

Geez. What the heck do you think you are studying? The answer to life, the universe and everything?

Wait, that's 42.

Seriously. Don't take this too seriously.

If you do, it can f**k with your head. Actually, you are th eonly one who can f**k with your head.

Just go train. Live, breathe, train, enjoy. Don't look too deep. Deep gets here soon enough. Especially if you really live ...

Chuck

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Old 05-11-2004, 08:09 PM   #30
Troy
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

This is my first post on AikiWeb, and I think this is a good place for me to start.

Ki is the internal energy generated by your living essance. Some even believe it to be the energy from your Soul. One has the choice of either being a Good person or an Evil person. So, if you treat everyone with kindness, and do the right thing, and use your energy for Good, then the Ki is good. If you do the opposite, then the Ki is bad. Energy is Nutral untill we make it otherwise.

The dreams, you said you had them when you first started the Ki training. Sence you probably hadn't done any energy training/work before (at leaste i am assuming) your mind might have been over stimulated, even if you felt totally calm. It happens to me all of the time, and I have funky dreams because of it as well.

Your friend, on the other hand, saying that Energy is evil? Ask them what their soul is made from... I bet they will say something like, energy, or energy from God, or something like that. I've had an argument like that before. And I am a Christian.
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Old 05-12-2004, 03:12 AM   #31
Orihime
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

I don't know, but as for me I don't see any evident link between Ki and religion.
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Old 05-12-2004, 06:06 AM   #32
Pauly
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

It might help if everyone had the same definition of Ki. I think that people's individual experience of it is so subjective that it can't really be called bad or even good.

Is your experience of Ki been entriely by yourself? With one other person? At a seminar with 50 other people? On the street? What and where?

Also I agree with Chuck Gordon about not taking it too seriously.
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Old 05-12-2004, 02:21 PM   #33
Terencentanio
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Freaky! Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Hey all This post got my attention so I'm gonna voice myself.

Ok, starting with religion. I see religion as a story made up by someone to explain the unprovable... in a way that won't be questioned. This is only my opinion (no, I'm not a believer in "the one all powerful being known as God)

I am a firm believer in Ki, yet I have had no experience with it.. although once I thought I did but I couldn't be sure...

About your bad dreams:-

(1) Bad dreams such as yours occur when you feel you've done something that you shouldn't have or you have played where you're not welcome to. Say, manipulating Ki and finally getting a sense of it may scare you into thinking you've done something wrong and it's or something is angry..

(2) Something you did recently may of provoked deapened thought... something linked to your past and your dreams.

(3) You could be eating cheese before you go to bed)

I have always had bad dreams.. mostly around the time I started testing psycic powers and was scared by the results. I won't go into detail as you'll only laugh.

I advise you perhaps sleep with your head on 2-3 pillows (although over 1 is unhealthy) ... but this should stop your bad dreams if it's pysical. Otherwise, read something funny or light before you go to bed.. this should relax you (don't watch TV as this will cause sleep problems and make your mind over active)

Also try other methods found above,

Hope this helps somehow
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Old 07-12-2004, 08:05 AM   #34
whitelion
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Please do not consider this offensive in anyway, but in your post about the experiences about Dragons, Bruce Lee, Ki and nightmares could be 1) joke 2) normal "visions" that your brains have created since you have been under influence of Klegends and possible some films about Bruce Lee & mysticsm etc.
3) OR these phenomenons and your feelings are really result of supernatural, or should I say un-natural spirit force.

please, forgive my "broken english", it is not my first language.

As cristian nowdays, I have quit training aikido ( and Ki-training ), because of its spiritual, non-christian nature.
From that point of view, It is not strange that you possibly have had strange feelings, that YOU have analyzed somehow
frightening or strange.

If someone is analyzing aikido or any form of ki-training, sports, spiritualism, religion with cristian background or just comparing the two
different ideology, he/she must ( at least I would suggest ) follow these principles:

First, all ideologys can NOT be true. Either something is true, or it is not.
Secondly, do not be frighten about being wrong. With proper knowledge you can change you view. Millions of people have been led to believe false gods, spirits, politics thousands of years. Different beliefs, like believing that "ki is good/bad/natural/ power that anyone
can learn to use" is not true, even some phenomenons might support this.

Third, IF you believe that Bible IS the true word of God, everything in it must be then true and every doctrine or belief that is
not TOTALLY symmetrical with Bible, * MUST HAVE DIFFERENT ORIGIN THAN BIBLE ! *. I think this is very simple logics.

Before we can analyse Ki or other form of power, like "holy spirit of God", ask from your self, what is life ? Or what powers does it require to stay alive ?

So, if anyone says to you, like "Ki is same as your life force that exists in your souls", please ask this person to prove that it is so. No-one has been able to do this.

- the physiological/chemical reactions makes you as "living soul",
your life is based on complicate chemical/physical reactions, that are depended of certain physical elements ( liquid water, temperature, air pressure etc.and suitabe enironment.

Bible is TOTALLY in harmony with this: Adam was CREATED from earth, and God stared his life ( the reactions that you have also ) and ADAM BECAME LIVING SOUL. God
did NOT put any spiritbody or immortal soul inside Adam. Please, read the creation of man from your own Bible.

Could this phenomenon create "power of Ki ?". Lets see what the history of Ki/Chi/Zi - or history of Ai-ki-do says. As I was told,
aikido means "the way of harmony", so the FALSE logics says that:

- Since "ai" is harmony, and aiki is "power of harmony/universe/life etc." everything in aikido is "harmonical and good". I know someone could say I am
offensive, but I would like that ANYONE ask from themself, what they thought when they heard these kind of "proven thruths" from their sensei.?
How was it proven ? With several Ki-training techniques ( stiff hand, body mass extending...) or stories ( true or legends.) that were about the masters, like O-sensei.

Do I make myself clear ? Didnīt we WANT to believe that this is the case ? Didnīt we want to believe that these ki-training techniques would eventually lead us to same "masterity" than the real masters ? Ofcource we did. So, if we start asking questions like,
"what is the source of this ki-power?" you normally get two explanations: 1) ki is your lifeforce OR/AND 2) Ki is universal non-personal force that can be "channeled" into and out from you body with different methods.

What are the methods to gain KI ? Please study carefully the history of Aikido and see/read YOURSELF what O-sensei did. He was Shinto-practicer, I have understood that he had very deep RELIGIOUS conviction. I have PERSONALLY met senseiīs that have trained with O-sensei, and
they authenticated that believing to "Kami", SPIRITS ( they even have names ! ) was essential at his training and - teaching.
His trainings started with rituals, that are clearly religious and spiritual. Do not believe, if someone trys to say something
else, he/she is then:
1) totally ignorant about true aikido
2) trying to lie to you ( even he/she does know the origin of KI )
3) trying to lie to him/herself, since the TRUTH would collapse his/her view of life.

Consider this with respect: If the founder of aikido said SEVERAL times that the power of AIKI "is not from us, it is from universe..."
we have to believe that there have been at least one person who has been honest. Please, study more, and you will see
that "Kami" , the spirits, their influence at his and his closest followers aikido has been important.

One of the great misconseptions is actually the term "the way of harmony". It is NOT true translation. Actually the phrase means
that "way to harmonize/connect yourself with aiki". So the ULTIMATE goal of aikido is to CONNECT yourself with this power !
And the method is to worship spirits that will eventually to help you to gain more and more Ki. And your problem in this is that the "alarm bell" was ringing. GOOD, very good.


So, either these statements are true or they are false. Now you must study the history of Ki and aikido, so that you will see am I liar or not.

The most important question: What does Bible or history say about this? Similar practice of ki was known at Babylon, thousands years ago. It was called
"Zi", and the PRIESTS of Babylonian gods were able to use or control this. Does this sound familiar ? Zi -> Chi -> Ki and the priest ?
It does. The methods have been translated to different cultures, but the principle is same: Gods/spirits -> give power to priest -> priests will
teach this further and so on. Like babylonian priest and WW-second time Japan Shintoism, the state-religion was accepting war. Nothing new under the sun, I would say. As you read more bible, you will see clearly that
the Satan was using Babylonian religion to spread the "spiritual religion" all over the world. Historians prove this also.
So, from the point of the Bible, the God of Israel ( Jehovah ) was against ALL form of their religions.

One of the misconseptions among the "christian" budo-trainers seems to be that they have connected the "ki-power" to Godīs Holy Spirit.
This is really dangerous, and can eventually lead to blasphemy. Ask from yourself, how could some "Kami-worshipper" demand/get power of God with methods that are based on false beliefs ? Such persons must be:
1) totally ignorant about the Bible, its meaning and christianity generally.
2) they believe that all form of religion is good. See again 1)
3) they have gain some personal benefit from ki-training, and do not care anymore is it Satan or God.
4) they want deliberately lead spiritually/religious minds towards the spirit world and Satan/Demons.

Again, we can find answer from the Bible. Do not believe my words no more than the words of ki-teachers.
In the book of "Works of Apostoles" have SEVERAL occasiations, where the power of God = the Holy Spirit and the spirit forces of Satan
were against each others. Read the chapter 13 forexample. Well, generally read and study the whole Bible :-)
Every person who made something "strange"- or lets use the term "supernatural" - got the power from spirits. Jeesus Christ said several times that all of his works were done with power from God, NOT with his own force. Christ also pointed out that some Israelians were using demonic powers, and spirits ( the kami again ! ) were able to enter humans and these persons had supernatural experiences - and forces.
Maybe you remember that normal humans were unable to control their power, but when Jesus helped, the spirits left, and the became normal.

I have tried to be as thruthfull as I can. I am expecting very hard critisism towards this reply. Actually, I am looking forward to it.
But as my last quote, I would challenge anyone to examine more history of Aikido and ofcource history of Religion and carefully study the Bible.

If you are true "truth seeker", nothing can not hide the real source of Ki from you, even the wolf comes in sheeps clothes.
"THe Satan himself disguises himself as the angel of light"... ( Galatians, in the Bible that is.) I am sure that God will show
to you "the way" how to harmonize yourself with true God Jehovah. The Way is told in the Bible through Jesus Christ.

- Richard -
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Old 07-12-2004, 08:22 AM   #35
happysod
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
As cristian nowdays, I have quit training aikido ( and Ki-training ), because of its spiritual, non-Christian nature
With all due respect, please sod off and die you objectionable little troll.

Your meandering post just reeks of smug self-satisfaction, right down to the "I expect to be picked on for this". What is objectionable isn't so much your belief on what ki/aikido is in relation to your religion, but the sheer bravado you show in that it is obvious that you have already made up your mind and would not actually be open to any sort of discussion, only more insipid reiterations of your own personal viewpoint.

As such, your only contribution can ever be "don't do this as you will be damned in the afterlife you godless pagans" I'd appreciate your silence. There are many posters on this board who hold strong religious values (not just Christian) while being able to practice aikido in all its manifestations. I find your puerile dismissal of their religious views an affront to common courtesy and your general demeanor an affront to intelligence in any form.
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Old 07-12-2004, 11:13 AM   #36
Beholder
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
With all due respect, please sod off and die you objectionable little troll.
No, no, Ian I think you read the post wrong. If people with thought processes as astounding as that quit aikido, that's a good thing surely?

Looks like I'll be training with all my aikido friends when I get to hell then. Ah well... at least the mats won't be cold.
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Old 07-12-2004, 01:12 PM   #37
Greg Jennings
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

My dojo is in a apostolic protestant church. I'm practicing Catholic, the senior student is a serious protestant church-goer of some ilk, another student is a serious Baptist, I have an Anglican priest training with me, one fellow, if you ask him (he doesn't volunteer it), says he's an atheist. I have the adjunct priest from my parish attending class tonight and a friend of his "from the office".

Ya know, I feel pretty good about what we're doing.

FWIW,

Greg Jennings
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Old 07-12-2004, 01:35 PM   #38
kironin
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Riku Nevalainen wrote:
I have tried to be as thruthfull as I can. I am expecting very hard critisism towards this reply. Actually, I am looking forward to it.
But as my last quote, I would challenge anyone to examine more history of Aikido and ofcource history of Religion and carefully study the Bible.
- Richard -

if you are expecting and looking forward to very hard criticism,
then I really strongly suggest that you go and post this sort of stuff
here:
http://www.atheistnetwork.com/

They are much more likely to respond in a lively way to your thoughts on the history of religion and the Christian Bible.


otherwise,
have a nice day,
plus ki,



Craig
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Old 07-13-2004, 02:30 PM   #39
gilsinnj
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

In general, all religions that are open to real spiritual growth and understanding have discovered some form of what we as Aikidoka call "Ki". Whether they call it the "power of God" or "Ki", the energy is the same. Many things are taught and studied as dogma with little understanding as to the real meaning.

I grew up Catholic and converted to Islam a few years ago. In my study of Catholocism, Islam, and Aikido, I found that there are many different levels of spiritual learning in each. If you simply want to do the minimum, you can learn the the words you are supposed to say at mass and take everything that is said to you at face value. This would be the same as only learning the physical techniques in Aikido. Some religions or sects of some religions encourage their members to stop there and not to persue further knowledge. (I'm sorry if that statement offends some people, but it seems to be true in my experience.)

Other religions or sects of other religions encourage their members to study and persue knowledge that delves deeper. Both the church I grew up in and the islamic center I worship at now encourage these studies, as well as the Aikido dojo I practice at. I've noticed a lot of similarities between Aikido and Islam, especially when it comes to the spiritual study of both and the concept of what Aikidoka call Ki.

In Aikido, we study Ki breathing and the use of Ki in our techniques. This is very similar to meditation and the power of God in Islam. While Aikido teaches "mind, no mind", trying to empty ones mind but yet become aware of everything, Islam teaches one to focus on God and only God. The physical practice of each is very similar, and the sensations felt during the practice of each is very similar. After introducing the concepts to both my Aikido instructor and my Imam (Islamic scholar), I learned that both also have the concept of being able to feel/see others energy, and tapping into Ki energy or the power of God.

Most Aikidoka have heard the amazing stories of what O'Sensei was able to accomplish by using Ki power. Things like the touchless throw, moving large boulders in his old age, holding off multiple attackers with one finger, etc. These stories aren't much different than the ones from the Torah, Bible, or Qur'an that describe amazing feets by the prophets. Stories like David and Goliath, Noah parting the Red Sea, and countless battles where a few devout followers were able to overcome overwhealming odds to be victorious. While there are many who question the validity of all these stories, I believe that the Ki that O'Sensei tapped into is the same power of God that the prophets tapped into. They were all able to use that energy to do seemingly amazing things.

The differences occur when we as human beings try to describe that energy. Since none of us fully understands the concept of this energy to begin with, none of us can fully understand how it relates to the world around us. Because of that, we try to box it in and explain it in terms that we CAN understand. The people in ancient Arabia had only the power of God to explain these events. The people around O'Sensei only had their spiritual teachings to describe the events they saw. (I think I've heard that O'Sensei himself never used the word Ki to describe what was going on, but don't quote me on that.) Because of this, its hard for many people to understand the relationships between the different terms and understand that they probably describe the same thing.

Sorry if I rambled on there. I've been thinking about these types of things for a while. I've seen many similarities between religion and Aikido ever since I started discovering some of the more spiritual concepts in each.

-- Jim
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Old 07-13-2004, 08:59 PM   #40
Charles Hill
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Jim,

It`s great that you have found connections between your two practices. In myself, however, I found that I occasionally let preconceived notions cloud what I find. I read an interesting interview with the guy on whom they based the character in the movie Jurassic Park. He is considered the top guy in the field of dinosaurs. When the interviewer asked him how he was able to make so many advances in the field, the scientist replied that he goes out into the field without any specific thoughts as to what he is looking for, he`s not looking for something, he is just looking. Other scientists, he said, start with any idea and then go out to look for proof. That is why they miss so much.

I think comparisons are important and help us to understand things. However, I`ve realized that it is possible for them to trip us up as much as help us.

As for Richard`s post, not to stir up trouble or anything (ok, to stir up trouble , when I visited Omoto Kyo a number of years ago, I asked about learning Onisaburo Deguchi`s Chinkon Kishin which the founder practiced. I was told that they no longer teach it because they were having trouble with people becoming possesed by evil spirits throught the practice and jumping off buildings and such.


Charles Hill
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Old 07-13-2004, 10:25 PM   #41
xuzen
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Dear anonymous,

Ki and chi litterally translate as breath in chinese and japanese language. tell me, which part of the word breath sounds evil to you? About you having n'mare, I guess it could just be a coincidence or maybe you went to sleep with a full stomach.

Boon

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:50 PM   #42
Kyri Honigh
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Hahaha omg lolz. Some people hahaha...don't understand why they are so chained to a certain doctrine. Don't have the ability to think and sort things out for yourself?Mr Nevalainen, how can you be so sure about it all? I am a catholic myself, but I am sure of one thing. The bible is a book written by humans and not by God. There's a very big possibility that things happened slightly (lol) different than said in The Book. But what you wanna believe is up to you, just don't try to force your faith and ideology on others. Good luck to you crusader!


P.s People with attitudes like you TOTALLY piss me off...thinking they all know about what's going on.. You think you are save now right, cause you believe ( I believe in God too). But you're forgetting about something. Should you not respect the beliefs of others? I don't know what the truth is, but I am willing to accept it if it's revealed to me, whether I am dead or alive. But HOW will you cope with it, if it's any bit different from your rigid view?
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Old 07-13-2004, 11:53 PM   #43
Kyri Honigh
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

sorry if there are any typos or whatever, hehehe got all fired up there.
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Old 07-15-2004, 06:00 AM   #44
whitelion
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Charles Hill[/quote]


As for Richard`s post, not to stir up trouble or anything (ok, to stir up trouble , when I visited Omoto Kyo a number of years ago, I asked about learning Onisaburo Deguchi`s Chinkon Kishin which the founder practiced. I was told that they no longer teach it because they were having trouble with people becoming possesed by evil spirits throught the practice and jumping off buildings and such.


Charles Hill[/quote]

Thank you for very interesting reply. First - even for me - It was almost too difficult believe what you had told about Omoto Kyo. ( which has had influence of Aikidos spiritual side.)
Luckilly, there is interesting article at:
http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/osensei/bio/mori2.html

So, anyone who is interested to read, whatkind of persons defined the modern aikidoīs spiritual lines, should see that my poin of view (what I tried to explain ) that believing "spirit world" and practising "spiritual" things, really exists. It is up to you, do you want to examine more what we can know about "spirit world". I can recommend the Bible as good source to these things. This is also my answer to some critisism that has came. Thank you for your comments.

Aikido and christian trainers

I am really sorry if my explanation about Ki and christianity has uppsetted someone. I must point that I was not raised as christian no more than average western citicen is about to have, but not given any "liberal" education that "all religions are good". Different religions or "systems of belive" is proof that people are not satisfied with their religions/beliefs. Thats why I was interested about aikido: I had just resigned from Luterian Church due its connection with false teachings about Bible and Christ, its connection to support wars etc. I think anyone can understand history of "Christianity" ( Catholic mostly ) as blood-thirsty and hypocrite, by the standards of Christ. So, if anyone has been on crusade, It has been catholics, not persons who believe like me. If someone is not accepting my point of view, I do not underestimate or start using provocative sentences. If someone sees some logical flaw in my text, please comment and also try to prove that I am wrong. It is always good to know that.

Famous Indian, Gandhi, has said during his times in England: " I learnt to love Christ, but to hate priests.".Maybe he knew what he was talking as beeing slavered by "christians". So, in that sense, anyone saying "I believe in God too" has really no value as proof that someoneīs way of live is really close to any God. Does believing in God effect to president of US ? If some priest practices aikido, what does it mean ?
Can he explain why Bible says "not to bow any idols or any picture.." if he is willing to do so ? Could it be so simple that such person is neglecting the "rules" ( at least it is common believe that christian priest should accept the Bible as word of God.) which he is expected to follow.?


Ichimura-sensei and his problem with aikido

My experiences with budo started at age of 10 with judo, and by that I had my first experience about aikido, when our instructor ( at kids judo) demonstrated us "aikido".He was working for Japan embassy at Finland as "chaufferin" or something like that. Some years later, at the age of 17 I started training aikido, when one student of Toshikazu Ichimura started to teach us. ( Ichimura was in charge of aikido at Finland and Sveden at 70/80 ). I get to know Ichimura also, by the years he was still here. He was really warm-hearted teacher, really good and respectful sensei. At that time he had 6th dan, ( please see: http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclo...hp?entryID=282 ) As I studied more aikido, and some other martial arts ( jujutsu was good for physics ) and I also meditated to gain level of "un-knowing" so to clear my mind and also to be more open to new things. Something was still bothering: since I knew about western occultism and its clear anti-christ attitude, I was aware that not all "spiritual" things comes from good source. Ki can be used even with assasins, so have I read from books that deal some "not-so-peaceful" martial-arts. I believe that anyone who has read some issues of BlackBelt can see that ki-training is common among persons, who have very little any idea of "spiritual progression" other than in military/martial sense. To me, it is obvious that Ki does not come form God of Love. If Ki is some unknown, but natural force, like electricity two hundreds years ago, why God had said to avoid occutism ? Because all it practicers must be connected to something that they can not control. Your statement about Omoto Kyo is good example. You can not control something that is too powerful for common humans, It will be that they will control you.
To my surprise, sensei Ichimura started to study christianity - and he became one ! I do not know which "sect", but it is not so important than his will to follow his consciences and sincere attitude. So, actually Ichimura started to explain that christianity and aikido has indeed similar view: peace among the humans, and non-violence attitude towards conflicts, however he pointed that he can not practise anymore rituals that has shinto background. Several years before, he had conflict with his close student, Rainer Varis, who left aikido and formed Ki-aikido training here at Finland. Ichimura was against this "fast way" to Ki-powers. I think he had enough experience to jude that.
I was amazed, when he announced that he will stop teaching and practising aikido. I had same problem: how to justify practising aikido, and same time to be in harmony with Christ.? Solution was: they can not be united, since following the Christ should be enough. He was right. I do not have any merit in aikido, but please believe his. ( You may confirm his reason to withdraw from some long-time finnish senseis, if you know any.)
After Ichimura left, some turmoul was going through aikido in Finland. Some other senseis took care of business here. Soon I discovered, that there was no point to continue in Aikido, without wholly accepting its "power source". Some finnish trainers visited at Michio Hikitsuchi dojo, and things they saw there confessed me about Ki-powers relation with worshipping the spirits. If you know someone who had change to visit his dojo, he/she can tell a lot more than I can. Not all dojos follow this traditional, Usehiba-style. But generally, if someone does not follow Ueshibas instructions, how he could progress in aikido ? It was under their supervision that I got my first "heavy body" experience at one training camp for short time. Since then I got interested more about this side of training. Finally, after some strange events what happened to me and to my girfriend who started have more strange visions when he was training aikido, I realized that it was time to move on and concentrate totally to Christ. As you may read from Bible, christians do not need any idols of Gods, nor altars of sacrifice, or any priesthood. It is really "The Way" like it was said in Bible.

I could write hundreds of pages about this issue, but I would be useless. I do not want to "crusade" against anyone, specially if he/she has very little experience about martial arts or "supernatural" phenomenons. Life generally is different than what we have taught. All I wanted to point out that people should not make decisions with weak reasons. And - like I was reminded - always be ready to change you view if you are wrong. But please do not say that Christ/God/Bible is in harmony with Aikido/ki or anything else, if you do not know these ideolgies enough to say so. Maybe someone remembers person called "Saul" who later came known as Paul. He was confirmed that Christ was wrong prophet ( because he believed in God without proper understanding.) but later accepted Christ wholly.
So, I am not worried about negative comments, maybe your time is coming. :-)

-Richard -
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Old 07-15-2004, 06:38 AM   #45
happysod
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
All I wanted to point out that people should not make decisions with weak reasons. And - like I was reminded - always be ready to change you view if you are wrong. But please do not say that Christ/God/Bible is in harmony with Aikido/ki or anything else
Dad, dad, I've found a baby fundamentalist, can I keep him eh, eh?

Just remember folks - using the above "logic" - God is NOT your friend as he's not in harmony with anything else
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Old 07-15-2004, 07:12 AM   #46
justMe
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

******************************************************************************** ************************************
Re: Aikido and being Christian

This is a most interesting thread. After I read all the entries I was quite pleased to note that there are many who seem who share my personal point of view: Aikido is what you make it! So is ki! Our intent, interpretation, use and experience of a thing define its quality of goodness or badness. For example there are those who feel handguns are bad and should be banned. Others believe (myself included) that guns are inanimate objects incapable of any such anthropomorphic qualities. In my view, it is the intent of the bearer that is either good or bad.

Just so, if one wishes to bring religion based spirituality to their Aikido practice, then Aikido will be a spiritual thing to them. So will ki. Others who do not assign a secular element to Aikido or ki will practice in religious neutrality. We all choose our path. We personally assign value and meaning as is congruous to our own perspectives on living, which includes our faith selections (and yes, not choosing is a choice).

However, I did strongly disagree with those who stated that meditation and emptying the mind could allow something evil to enter. My opinion? Impossible! First off I need to say that I do not anthropomorphize deities, evil, goodness etc. Evil is not some sort of mystical sneak-thief awaiting for the owner of the house to leave before robbing it. It is a personal quality that, like honesty, goodness or morality, must be intentionally developed within ones self. That being the case, I offer the following analogy. If you empty a glass of its water, the glass still remains. If you attempt to fill the glass with vapor, the glass will not hold it because it is the wrong type of substance for that container. In the same manner, evil can not take over a good person. They are simply the wrong kind of containers!

Also, this idea of ki being from the devil is actually anti-Christian. Consider: all things come from God. Even Lucifer, according to doctrine, was created by God. So Lucifer is unable to create anything new and must content himself with warping that which already exists, hence his reputation as the Father of Lies and The Great Deceiver. This turns the ki conundrum into the handgun example I gave earlier. The practitioner of ki development will decide for him or her self via intent, interpretation, use and experience, just what exactly the nature of ki is for themselves.
******************************************************************************** ************************************


I posted the above as a reply to a different thread. It seems to me that it is relevant here as well so I am repeating myself. I am also adding the following observations:

Dreams tend to serve as pressure valves that release both conscious and subconscious tensions that remain unresolved when we go to sleep. For example, I was for years engaged in aggressive and violent work. Often I came home so weary that I would go straight to bed. In these instances I was more likely to have violent dreams than those times when I would come home and have a few hours to unwind.

Sometimes as we search for meaning we erringly assign weighty significance to ordinary things. I am reminded of a scene from "Apollo 13" where an astronaut's wife laments "Of course it had to be 13" alluding to unlucky superstitious connotations regarding that number. Her husband simply points out, regarding the number 13, "It follows 12."

In my humble opinion, we, all of us, myself included, tend to take ourselves too seriously. Just like Don Quixote, we engage what we perceive as savage dragons to defend our "territory," be that physical possessions, emotional states, or religious/philosophical perspectives. To outside observers, our savage dragons are simply windmills.
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Old 07-15-2004, 01:32 PM   #47
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Actually, aikido and christianity are quite incompatible. You should go do christian kurotty.

Sigh.

Look, you want to reconcile your faith with your budo, fine. Just do it in private and wash your hands afterward.

If you want to do BUDO (no really, BUDO, you know, a Japanese system of martial endeavor?) then you'd better be prepared to accept the fact that your chosen art will have roots in and connection to the spiritual aspects of Japanese belief systems.

That don't mean you have to ACCEPT those belief systems, but that you have to be open to and accept the influence they had upon your chosen art.

In the case of aikido, the art was built upon a foundation of Daito Ryu Jujutsu and Omoto Kyo.

If that bothers you, go do something else.

No, really.

The core philosophies of aikido are inextricably entwined with esoteric Shinto and Omoto Kyo religion.

Can you do aikido and realize that and still hold to your own accepted faith system?

Well, yeah. IF your faith is strong.

If not, then you have a problem that no amount of apologia or rationalization will deconflict.

If you want to do budo, do budo. If you want to praise god, go to church.

But, then, YMMV, of course.

Chuck

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Old 07-15-2004, 04:20 PM   #48
kironin
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

Quote:
Riku Nevalainen wrote:
All I wanted to point out that people should not make decisions with weak reasons.

Great! got the point. Your sensei had a conversion experience that really twisted your melon. Always diificult to reconcile things after someone you are following makes an abrubt change. No more need to be said.

You just need to recognize that others who strongly disagree with your beliefs/viewpoint may have just as strong if not stronger reasons for doing so.

I am not holding my breathe.

Yours in Ki

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Old 07-15-2004, 07:19 PM   #49
p00kiethebear
 
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

No one said you had to believe in ki. Maybe in your mind, there is no universal energy? There is perhaps only the coordination of your mind, muscles and nervous system which the chinese and japanese call "ki" energy. Ki is whatever you want it to be. If you believe it to be a making of the devil then don't practice it or believe in it, practice the techniques without thinking about it.
If i remember correctly, Christian scientists believe extremely strongly in that we are all made in god's own image. And therefor have the power of god within us all. Could their faith healing miracles be the power of ki? Or just coincidence? Is there anyone out there who can give me a better description of the christian scientists? This goes on mostly what i've heard from my mothers practices.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 07-16-2004, 06:14 AM   #50
Peter Seth
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Re: ki power bad for you / evil??

A general note about KI.
Its like a loaded gun, totally unbiased just sitting there doing its 'thing', in total balance and harmony with itself and all around it. - Then along comes this person (idiot) and upsets the balance!!
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