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Old 09-16-2003, 10:56 AM   #1
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ki power bad for you / evil??

I'm just wondering about this cos my friend brought up the subject of "ki" today.

In my experience after I started training in Aikido "ki" exercises I started having very bad demonic nightmares... much like in Bruce lee's Dragon... Now is this a coinsidence, dreams are strange things and maybe just the fact that I have seen Dragon and have also heard rumours/opinion that Bruce lee died an early death cos he couldn't control his "ki" power...

I have a Christian friend who says "ki" power comes from the devil and is evil... but why do we all have it inside us assuming you believe we were created by God??

Conversly to the bruce lee arguement O sensei was 86 when he died and must have done a lot of exercise to build his "ki" power

What does everyone think about this?
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:51 PM   #2
twilliams423
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The concept of evil and the devil is exactly that.... a human, intellectual concept. It "exists", as such, in our minds.

Ki,subtle universal energy, is outside the realm of what we think about things. It isn't restricted to what you want to think it is.

Is there a relationship between ki and mental energy, thoughts, dreams, etc.? Sure.

Everything dies. That's natural. Just like ki. Death is not evil. It's just in the nature of the way things are.

Don't worry about it. Enjoy Aikido.
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:02 PM   #3
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This thread moved to the Spiritual forum.

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Old 09-16-2003, 01:12 PM   #4
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Hi !

Regarding the bad dreams,

you have the option of prayer before sleep,

I sometimes pray specifically for the way my dreamlife works when I feel it's needed,

you could try it.

The issue of Ki/Chi is a little complex,

your christian friend may refer to the chinese concept which is different than the japanese (you could read "Ki in daily life by K.Tohei).

Extending Ki in training needs not be related to any internal energy/spirit that

is part of the Chinese styles,

this I say based on the little I know now,

please someone correct me if I'm far off.
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Old 09-16-2003, 02:02 PM   #5
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Again, Chinese concept of ch'i, Japanese concept of Ki, whether it's Tohei Sensei or whomever, are in the conceptual sphere.

Primal ch'i is one. Its manifestations are innunerable.

It's not that you can't talk about it in intellectual terms, because obviously you can. The problem is when you confuse the words and ideas with subtle reality.

Directly experience ki/ch'i every moment. More words mean less.
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Old 09-16-2003, 02:53 PM   #6
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Tom !

If you are a non-believer say it !

When you accept Christ as Lord guess who shows up shotly after to annoy you ?

The devil exists and he's an asshole but

he is to be ignored,he's worth no attention,

and he hates believers.

I have speak up for my saviourer.

The devil can hate me for it,that's fine with me.

yours sincerely.
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Old 09-16-2003, 03:00 PM   #7
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See if you still have the dreams a month from now.

I think ki is ki, there is no inherent 'good' or 'evil'. If anyone tells you otherwise, you're hearing an opinion, a perception. Your friend perceives 'ki' to be evil, and that's fine -- incorrect, but okay, because the universe doesn't care about that sort of thing. Trees don't care what we think, neither do rocks, rivers, planets, etc. It's all around us at all times.

Your friend may be confusing 'ki' with magic or something else supernatural. Get him/her on the mat (literally or figuratively) and then demonstrate ki using a blend against an attack, see if that has any effect.

That, at least, is my experience of 'ki'.

*Phil

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Old 09-16-2003, 04:19 PM   #8
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The sun shines, the farmer's plants grow. The sun shines, it hits my face, I lose a chunk of flesh to basal cell carcinoma. The sun shines, and reflects off the mooon. Is the sun good, bad, neutral, a gift from God,a manifestation of evil? Is it the natural world expressing itself? In a relative sense, we can ascribe a value to all our experiences. We can certainly be convinced of inherent truth of our perceptions and understanding or not. This a matter of spiritual growth, not belief.
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Old 09-16-2003, 07:14 PM   #9
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I think the misunderstanding is on what "ki" is. Ki is not witchcraft, magic, etc. According to various forms of asian medicine (such as acupuncture) it is one of your body's systems.

Couldn't adrenaline be more evil because of what people do when they're upset or angry?

"Ki" in the japanese language is really not all that mystical, and in fact pops up in every day conversation.
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Old 09-17-2003, 07:20 AM   #10
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Quote:
Paul Mihalik (Largo) wrote:
I think the misunderstanding is on what "ki" is. Ki is not witchcraft, magic, etc. According to various forms of asian medicine (such as acupuncture) it is one of your body's systems.
If you do some research into the Western Magickal tradition, they have similar concepts to ki. Ceremonial magick speaks of extending one's personal power, when casting a circle of protection, and that one can use the Athame (ritual dagger) as a focus for ones power during magickal workings. If ki is a universal concept then it makes sense that other cultures would have learned how to utilize the phenomenon to their own devices, although maybe differently than they did in Asia. IMHO, animistic spiritual traditions such as Wicca and Taoism probably have more in common with Ueshiba brand of spirituality and Aikido than Zen Buddhism.

Although ki (qi) travels through our vessels via meridian according to Chinese medical theory, ki (qi) is manifest in all things. That's if you believe all the metaphysical mumbo jumbo.
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Old 09-17-2003, 12:07 PM   #11
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IMHO, Ki is energy. As we exercise in Ki the energy flows through our bodies. The clear circularion of Ki creates health, while the blockage creates illness. If you are holding tension in your body from past trauma or fear you may be blocking ki with your body or character armor (Wilhelm Reich) and that blockage can create stress and even bad dreams. Lee had a lot of demons psychologically he was running from. In other words, IMHO, Ki training can gives us the opportunity to face all the demons that are chasing us.

Gotta agree with Tom somewhat, while I accept there is evil in this world, most of what we label evil is just the fear we create within our own minds that we don't want to accept responsibility and accoutnability for.

Ki is life. Life is not evil. What you do with it, just may be though. The question may not necessarily be is Ki power bad or evil for you, but rather is what you are doing with your life energy (Ki) in the best interest of all or just in the service of our individual selfish ego.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-17-2003, 11:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Damion Lost (Ghost Fox) wrote:
If you do some research into the Western Magickal tradition, they have similar concepts to ki.
Really? I guess you learn something every day. With all of the negative associations that magic/witchcraft have with them, I'm not sure that's something that I would tell most people, especially religious fundamentalists.
Quote:
Damion Lost (Ghost Fox) wrote:
Although ki (qi) travels through our vessels via meridian according to Chinese medical theory, ki (qi) is manifest in all things. That's if you believe all the metaphysical mumbo jumbo.
Agreed. That was the point I was trying to make. I believe that ki is a natural force which can affect us physically (and spiritually...but that's a post for a different time). As a 'natural' force, I wouldn't really call it good or bad. That's why I made the comparison to adrenaline. At times, it serves useful purposes (extra energy, focus, etc) but also can be negative as well (hyper-agression, causing ulcers, insomnia, etc).
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Old 09-18-2003, 06:53 PM   #13
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The only way one could start to understand the concept of Ki is when one searches to unite with oneself. In other words, know oneself.

When one does this, one will find things that one wouldn't like within oneself. One will find one's own demons to battle with. The greatest enemy is oneself.

I have been battling my own demons lately. Drove me to depression. I'm not saying that I have resolved my own problems, but at least the way has been shown to me.

I've learned that when I practice Aikido, it's not about defeating the other person, it's not about learning techniques, it's about learning about oneself. It's about becoming acquainted (did I spell that correctly?) with the stranger that one sees in the mirror each morning.

You, Anonymous one, could explain to your Christian friend that Ki is as natural as the gravity that holds us down to earth. Ki is a gift from God to humans, it is part of His creation. Do not fear it, embrace it.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
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Old 09-20-2003, 08:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
() wrote:
I'm just wondering about this cos my friend brought up the subject of "ki" today.

In my experience after I started training in Aikido "ki" exercises I started having very bad demonic nightmares... much like in Bruce lee's Dragon... Now is this a coinsidence, dreams are strange things and maybe just the fact that I have seen Dragon and have also heard rumours/opinion that Bruce lee died an early death cos he couldn't control his "ki" power...

I have a Christian friend who says "ki" power comes from the devil and is evil... but why do we all have it inside us assuming you believe we were created by God??

Conversly to the bruce lee arguement O sensei was 86 when he died and must have done a lot of exercise to build his "ki" power

What does everyone think about this?
After seeing Bruce Lee's film, perhaps your subconcious believed you needed to have these "nightmares" as a rite of passage.
Quote:
A man visits his doctor. He swings his arm around and says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this." The doctor replies, "So don't do that!"
If you keep having these disturbing dreams and relate them directly to these ki exercises, stop doing these ki exercises.

Bruce Lee died a young man because he died young. Morihei Ueshiba died an old man because he died old. What counts is how they lived their lives.

The concept of ki or chi is foreign to the Christian belief system. Besides which, this concept is so broad, as others have pointed out, you need to define your terms and references in order to explain accurately, what you are talking about.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
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Old 09-22-2003, 09:18 PM   #15
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The closest meaning is of course "Spirit" that forms, interlace and interpenetrates everything that exist. Close to is "free will" and next step is "grace" wich is created by the concious armonious use of energy and forces available by "Habit" not by casual exeption.

I think theres no room anymore for to consider "evil things we dont understand for todays people, it was ok somewhere in the past

In my very humble opinion energy and spirit are so natural, pure and cristaline that man tries to put some color on it, add some racional attributes and elements that fit their present level of think, being and live concept for better undrstanding.

Why talk about fundamentalist? look at their myths, secrecies, chimes, gossips, herarchical closed circles. Whoom of you will let these people tell you the reasons why ki is evil or not.

Praetorian



"I have never been contained except I made the prison
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Old 09-23-2003, 05:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Manuel Ch. Anderson (Pretoriano) wrote:
In my very humble opinion energy and spirit are so natural, pure and cristaline that man tries to put some color on it, add some racional attributes and elements that fit their present level of think, being and live concept for better undrstanding.
Agreed. Understanding is very limited if only used via what one is capable of perceiving; there is usually something more than what we can see.

*Phil

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Old 09-24-2003, 08:25 PM   #17
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Circle

Quote:
Phillip Johnson (PhilJ) wrote:
Agreed. Understanding is very limited if only used via what one is capable of perceiving; there is usually something more than what we can see.

*Phil
Yes Mr. Phillip, but at least we have our perception to know whats going on in "our world" and in the World, the Primordial here I think is to plenty accept that we sometimes percive "wrong" consecuently thinking and acting wrong, nobody I know escapes from this.

Of course constantly redefining and refinning the way we Percieve

takes all life, the thing is to be suficiently Humble, self controlled and flexible to deal properly with facts, perception, thinking, decisioning and acts.

Like the art of Aikido were youre in your Right to call Earth or Universe to control and redirect/reversal chaotical innercial or concious forces.

It is a personal solely decision to chain violence and desorder adding points to the big summatory of world chaos.

It is not to believe in Peace and Harmony, it is to Act every time without dismay knowing that rewards is another illusion.

Try fear: "no fear inner changes" no fear physical confrontation, no fear enemies, no fear right perception...

Try above the opposites like in chess board:

"white pieces are winning, no wait black ones are winning...and so on, see the game, realise that never changes...

blabla

Hope you dont find my way of thinking too twarted.

Praetorian

Caracas, Venezuela
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Old 09-25-2003, 08:50 AM   #18
ian
 
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Unfortunately much of organised religion demonises other religions to prevent people 'swapping over'. Such is the use of devils etc and there is no evidence that such talk of good and evil were ever used in the book of Q (source book of the christian gospels). In fact there are strong relationships between buddhist thought and early christianity (as there was between buddhist thought and Stoic roman philsophers e.g. Marcus Aurelius). Anyone that takes a religious view without question, testing or deep realisation is just asking for trouble.

Chi does have many definitions. We are born with it so it cannot be 'bad'. However you must be careful with chi exercises - try to find someone with some experience of chi exercises (I know someone who got kidney pain from chi exercises and no western doctor could spot anything wrong but he ended up going to a traditional chinese medicine doctor who diagnosed the problem immediately).

Therefore, do chi exercises, but do them properly (and get over your indoctrination, which may be the real cause of the nightmares!)

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 09-27-2003, 05:49 PM   #19
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Quote.-"In my experience after I started training in Aikido "ki" exercises I started having very bad demonic nightmares..."

Too much brain oxigenation maybe?

Every people haved nightmares several times on live: from bad meal, stress, bad day to psychic attacks.

They should be not recurrent, and they should bother you just few minutes and no more, even if you can bring to present some of that images they can't harm you not during the dream, not after.

Mother nature wisely takes charge on Abuse-Overtrainning to natural prevent serious prejudices to your health: exhaustion, dismays, injuries likely warnings about energy and vitality.

Ive never heared about nightmares in Aikido Not uncommon people that have overworked and probably have suffered from insomnia for a while.

Movies are just for fun and relax, dont get too impressed, you should role play Lee that would assure better dreams

Pretoriano

Last edited by Pretoriano : 09-27-2003 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 09-28-2003, 12:07 PM   #20
Kensho Furuya
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In the very traditional definition of "ki" (or "chi" in Chinese), Ki always moves towards "goodness," or contains "the essence of goodness." In the West, we have God and a moral consciousness of good and evil and see Nature and the "laws of nature" or "natural order" as something impersonal or devoid of consciousness. Some scientist declare that nature is "random" and "directionless." In Eastern thought, the idea is slightly different. When, in the East, we speak of Nature or laws of Nature, we are also speaking of a "moral force" or "moral consciousness." This is the original meaning of "Do," or the "Path" as in Aikido. This natural law is also referred to as "toku" ("virtue" or "te" in Chinese). "Do" contains the essence of "Ri" or "kotowari," the law of Nature and this action or interaction is the manifestation of "ki." In Neo-Confucianist thought which had a tremendous influence on Japanese thinking and the samurai ideology in later generations, state that, "ki" is "ri" (Nature) as stated by Chi Hsi. Another later philosopher, Wang Yang Ming (Oyomei-gaku, or the Oyomei School) who influences Samurai thought tremendously, refined this to "ki" is "shin" or "mind "("ki soku shin")."

Today, we tend to give "ki" our own interpretation and speak of it from our own world, experiences and modern point of view. In the original or ancient usage of "ki," it has always contained the essence or idea of goodness.

When this flow or movement (ri) of ki is stopped or blocked or distorted, then everything, - natural order, also becomes distorted or removed from the "do" or Path. This is "not" good.

Even in modern Japanese, the term, "byoki" or "stopped or plugged up ki" means "disease" or "sickness." This is when the ki in the body is not functioning or flowing properly. In traditional terms, health means that the ki is always flowing properly and strongly.

If we try to hard or use excessive force or strain at something, we say, "muri" or "no 'ri'" meaning going against the laws of nature. "Muri" also infers moving away from "do" or not using our "ki." If we "give ki to it" (ki wo tsukeru) we are mentally aware or alert. If we give it "an abundance of ki" (ki wo komeru) then we are giving our loving care or compassion to it.

If our "ki" seems bad, it only means, in traditional terms, that our "ki" is distorted or plugged up. Ki should always be flowing and moving and it always moves towards goodness.

"Man's nature is always inclined towards goodness, just alway water always seeks the lower level."

This is just a very brief and superficial summary. Many thanks.
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Old 09-30-2003, 10:12 PM   #21
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First of all I wish to give my deepest apretiation for your experienced comments here and in other treads and for to show tales from the True spirit of martial arts as well.

Question: How one knows how long is for to work Chi in terms of mind, emotional and body (development, control, balance, all oneself practical)

And when is time to take this knowledge a little far and start concerning and dealing (practically) about the Chi that links Everything that exist? I mean the energies that links the mind, the hearts, the happens in the human kind?

Im not sure my way of writing is enough clear for to be properly understood, I beg for your comprehension.

Muchas gracias,

Praetoriano

Caracas, Venezuela

"It's not only the most difficult thing to know one's self, but the most inconvenient."

Josh Billings
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Old 10-01-2003, 01:55 AM   #22
Kensho Furuya
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Thank you very much. I think you are directing this question to me and it is a question I deal with a lot in my dojo with my students and in my writings but it is also a very difficult question to answer and I am not sure I can do a good job here in just a few words. I hope that you will not misunderstand or misinterpret my words here.

Briefly, and in my own humble opinion, I think that it is a matter of perception more than a definition of ki. In a traditional interpretation, ki is inherent within the individual and not apart from him. This is why, in the East, we speak of ways of centering or concentrating or moving this energy throughout our body. Ki is also the "stuff" that not only ourselves but all things in Nature are made of. In the East, the idea is to allow ki to move freely through our bodies. We do this, not by conscious or deliberate control, but by bringing a so-called "harmony" to the bodies in which it is allowed to flow freely. In Aikido, we do this by a balanced, circular and free flowing movement. On the contrary, we understand that if we are too tight or hard or inflexible, the ki does not flow well at all.

I am trying to understand your question but I think you may believe, like many, that it is something attainable or, if I do this, and this, and this, such as train or study or contemplate ki, then I will have it. In a more traditional view, it is not something attained or grasped, but something which is "realized" internally. I hope I am not splitting hairs here or being too confusing for you.

This is why in the East, there is a common attitude of "non-doing" and everything gets done. This sounds very Taoist or Zen-like to us. The idea here is that ki is allowed to flow naturally by itself if we leave it alone or "let Nature takes it own course - we try to attain this state in our Aikido technique. How we reach this stage of realization of this energy and this flow is a matter of "transformation" or refinement of ourselves. This is the meaning of "practice."

In very ancient times, ki was interpreted to have "substance" - meaning to the ancients that it was not material but it was not im-material as well. The character for ki is written with the radical for "gas" over the radical for "rice" or, in other words, ki resembles the "steam" rising over cooking rice - something which seems to have substance and seems not to have substance at the same time. It is only much later in the evolution of the idea of ki, as I spoke of before, did ki become more of an abstract energy or principle (ri). The reason why I mention this is because we often interpret ki today as something which is very "mental" or "psychic" and this is not quite right, ki still has not only a connection within ourselves but with all of Nature as well. . . . .it is not a totally, human, "mental" thing, exclusively belonging only to us human beings.

Another complex aspect of this question is where the refinement of O'Sensei's genius has brought us Aikido's own unique idea of ki energy. The idea of ki projecting through the hands outside of one's body is not a part of the traditional or older definition of ki, this is something which is uniquely O'Sensei's idea. I hope I am not getting too long winded here.

Omoto Kyo is one of many "new religions" (shinko shukyo) to spring up around the turn of the century. These are called "new" religions and are very eclectic embodying aspects of many religions, not only Shinto, but Buddhism, Christianity, mysticism from the West and Europe which was very popular at this time. In one of the primal sources of Omoto Kyo, there is the strong influence of the Christian idea that man is a creation of God (from the Genesis, and "Omoto" is a reference to the Genesis in the Old Testament meaning 'Great Source.'") God wthin us (as his creation in this Japanese interpretation) can be projected outwards from the body to another (as God's Love.) In the early days, this idea took the form of healing practice. A characteristic of these new religions is this feature of "spiritual" healing. By the laying on of hands onto another, we can project God's Love, according to them. through the hands and heal another with this "energy.". This is how Japanese "new" religions understood this. God's Love in this case was called "hikari" or Light (as in God's Light) which gave rise to other new religions as Mahikari (Great Light) and Johrei (Purifying Light) etc. I think the refinement in O'Sensei's teaching was to take this concept of "hikari" which is projected from the hands and adapt it to his idea of ki in his Aikido. In the early days, O'Sensei sometimes referred to ki as "hikari" or light. This is part of the Omoto Kyo influence on Aikido. Whereas these religions used this concept for healing, O'Sensei adapted it into his Aikido in a martial way. Even in this, this light is something which flows freely from the body. It is not something that can be manipulated or controlled - what we do is to allow it to flow freely.

There is one more aspect I would also like to briefly touch on to help you with your understanding of this. In the traditional concept of ki, there is this idea of free flowing or Natural flowing as a part of the natural activity of ki. In Chinese, this was, as I mentioned before referred to as "non-doing" or "non-activity" ("wu-wei" in Chinese), I think in O'Sensei's Aikido we understand this as "purification" or misogi. In the Japanese idea, we come closer to Nature or achieve the "pure" state of Nature, as we, at the same time, achieve the free flowing state of ki - as we "purify" ourselves in our training or in the execution of Aikido techniques. In other words, "Aikido is misogi-waza." as we understood O'Sensei to say.

It is much better to understand all of this in your training on the mats. I indulged my own bad habit of yakking too much here. I hope I haven't confused you too much. Many thanks for your patience.
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Old 10-01-2003, 10:01 PM   #23
Paula Lydon
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~~Hello Unknow Person! In my view and experience ki is one of the many names for life energy (call it God if you wish) and as such is neutral in and of itself. You can cultivate yourself to tap into or allow more to move through you and what you freely choose to do at that point is up to you. You are already full of and channeling ki or chi or prana, etc, or you wouldn't exist in any form.

~~As for the dreams--again, 'bad' is only a term applied--I would say try to record them regularily and let them work whatever they came to work out or on for you. I've gone through boughts in my life of horrific dreams, and in the end it always turned out to be something I needed to confront and process through. So in that light, maybe they're actuall 'good' dreams as they are appearing for some reason at this time to help you grow. We push our bodies to sweat and pant and ache, most uncomfortable, all of which works out toxins and builds overall health. Is this a bad thing?

~~I would say, if you're enjoying you training, just try to relax, breath through the unfamiliar or uncomfortable and let things arise and pass as they naturally will. If that is not possible at this time for you, then stop training. You were drawn to it once, it will probably come around again when you're more ready.

~~Take care

~~Paula~~
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Old 10-02-2003, 06:31 AM   #24
Ghost Fox
Dojo: Jikishinkan Dojo
Location: New York City (Brooklyn)
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On the Dreaming

Whenever you truly train in a spiritual discipline you start contacting those aspects from the darker side of your subconscious, namely the Shadow. All the repressed and denied memories, impulses, and emotional traumas that we don't want to acknowledge come floating to the service like a rotting corpse filled with gases. Sometimes these darker aspects manifest themselves as nightmares. You have to analyze/meditate on them to understand what your spirit is trying to tell you.

Most people who meditate, practice Aikido or any other Do tend to use it as an escape from life or to try to feel better about themselves. I'm not saying this is bad, but there is a deeper level that only comes about though embracing our Shadow and integrating it into our larger consciousness. Shin Shin Toitsu talks about Mind, Body, and Spirit united. If you deny an aspect of yourself, whether it be a negative conditioning or a physical limitation due to an injury your Aikido will reflect that. Aikido is a mirror of ones spiritual development.

JMHO

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Old 10-02-2003, 06:48 AM   #25
Ghost Fox
Dojo: Jikishinkan Dojo
Location: New York City (Brooklyn)
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Power without Direction

People talk about Ki development, as it is the final step of the process. The accumulation of Ki into the body and getting it to flow properly is only the first stage. Ki is just raw energy, without direction and purpose the Ki will be channeled haphazardly into reinforcing negative conditioning or spent fruitlessly.

In Aikido by focusing on the aspects of harmony, peace, and compassion we seek to channel this new energy into developing new patterns of interacting with those around us. You have to be mindful of what you give energy to in life. I think Aikido makes us aware of what we choose to give life to.

JMHO

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