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Old 01-17-2005, 05:01 PM   #51
SMART2o
Location: Alberta
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Re: knife defenses

When threatened with a knife, the best bet would probably be to escape without turning your back, if at all possible. Tanto drills are good, but I won't let them give me a false sense of invincibility. I don't care what rank you are, a knife, even in the hands of a complete moron can easily be an early ticket to the cemetery. Although if someone plans to kill you with a knife, most likely you won't even see it.
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Old 01-17-2005, 06:40 PM   #52
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
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Re: knife defenses

Quote:
Mark Chalmers wrote:
When threatened with a knife, the best bet would probably be to escape without turning your back, if at all possible. Tanto drills are good, but I won't let them give me a false sense of invincibility. I don't care what rank you are, a knife, even in the hands of a complete moron can easily be an early ticket to the cemetery. Although if someone plans to kill you with a knife, most likely you won't even see it.
Which is why edged weapons defense is not only fun, but it's educational
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:03 AM   #53
SeiserL
 
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Re: knife defenses

Nice points, compliments and appreciation.

IMHO, please remember that training is not sparring, sparring is not fighting, fighting is not combat. Each has its own rules of engagement based on intent and intensity. Proficiency in one does not mean you are proficient in another.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-31-2005, 04:32 PM   #54
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: knife defenses

I once heard one of the lads I used to train with tell me this story ( It's one of those sister's dog's cousin etc...ones)

*Apparently* his instructors sensei in Jujitsu said there's one key thing in knife work.
"First put hand on knife, then you know where the knife is, all of the time"

...Psycho...

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 02-02-2005, 12:05 PM   #55
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
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Re: knife defenses

I liked the advice about the three Cs of dealing with a knife (Clear, Control, and Counter). I would like to add that the number one thing we should be working on is maintaining a safe distance (angle, etc.) so that you could possibly clear, control, and/or counter. Maybe that's obvious, but I see so many people in terrible position trying to force techniques that it's become a pet-peeve. I generally cannot lift a person if I'm at arms length from them - and every technique basically works the same way. That's just aikido in general.

When we specicially work with taking a knife, I'd say that if you do have to offer them something you want it to be the back of your arms rather than the other side. When you do find yourself trying to control that blade, you want to grab and maintain control of their opposing digit. If you control the thumb, you can strip that knife. I see a lot of tanto dori where the nage grabs the wrist. That is a poor choice if you could have gotten their thumb. It takes a bit of re-training but it's well worth it. I'm curious what the folks who do tanto kata think about this.

Rob
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Old 02-02-2005, 11:10 PM   #56
L. Camejo
 
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Re: knife defenses

I think the reason why getting the wrist may be so popular is simply because it is close enough to the weapon to allow one to control the arm effectively as well as execute a possible technique in the event all goes well.

If it does not go well then you at least have a hand on the weapon arm and this acts as a guide to know where the weapon is in relation to your body and helps decide your next option for technique.

Going for the thumb however, especially how we use a knife with the blade upwards if stabbing / thrusting (a method also taught at a DT knife course I've been to) is a dangerous proposition if the knife fighter is moderately quick. You will probably lose some fingers if not have a serious gash in the hand or wrist when he tries to recoil the weapon after he detects you trying to take it away.

Getting the thumb also requires a good deal of accurate fine motor skills imo. I instruct students to never try to "catch" a weapon hand (using the fine motor skills in the fingers) but to use tegatana (blade edge of hand) as a guide that leads to a quick and strong following grasp. It's a 2-stage movement that one can easily master with practice. Those who try to catch the hand, which may be necessary in the event of the thumb due to its protected position on the inside of the handle, often end up with either a slit palm or wrist when the blade is quickly recoiled. The idea may work in cooperative kata practice but has failed so far against a tsuki under even medium resistance in our training methods.

The only workable option I see is if one is able to control the wrist or forearm first and then go for the thumb after having limited the mobility of the forearm, wrist or hand, which is usually the fastest moving thing in a knife attack and difficult to judge without some other control over its movement.

Just my thoughts.

Of course I can be wrong.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 02-02-2005 at 11:14 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:58 AM   #57
rob_liberti
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Re: knife defenses

I agree with mostly all of that. I like the blade up too. I like the explaination of the quick 2-stage movement. I normally have to use the other hand to deflect/redirect/clear whatever and then get to that thumb. I suppose it's more the base of the thumb - no so muchthe part that sticks out. I have no problem with getting the wrist first and then moving on to the base of the thumb, But I don't think many people could possibly strip a knife away from me if they are not holding my thumb becuase my grip is fairly strong and my wrist is fairly flexible - unless I'm unconscious - or in shock.

Good response, thanks! - Rob
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Old 02-03-2005, 08:40 AM   #58
L. Camejo
 
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Re: knife defenses

Good point on the strong grip part Rob. I totally agree.

This is why any "stripping" is done after the attacker is pinned and secured on the ground and unable to go anywhere. Then one can utilise a few things like locks that isolate and weaken the muscles of the hand forcing the grip to loosen like Nikkyo (Kote Mawashi), Sankyo (Tenkai Kotehineri) or Kotegaeshi or something we do where the meaty part at the base of the thumb is placed on the inside of the attacker's four fingers and a pressing/rolling action is used to roll the knife out of the attacker's hand - sort of like rolling his fingers like dough, ending up with the knife in your hands instead - kinda hard to explain. This also serves to isolate the fingers and get the knife out.

Good question and comments btw.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 02-13-2005, 12:29 AM   #59
samurai_kenshin
 
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Re: knife defenses

instead of using aikido you should do the following in correct order:

1. Go buy a black belt and hakama

2. call yourself 200th dan

3. Name your style "Fleeandrunkido"

4. If anyone asks to see a demonstration run away very quickly
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