Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Weapons

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-03-2003, 07:03 PM   #26
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
I know you know but although Shodokan tanto randori takes things closer to the edge than most tanto dori some people tend to forget that it is afterall a rubber/cloth knife. When it gets to shiai the rules are geared to the idea that it is a real knife but even so people often take liberties. Most people understand the difference.
Totally agreed. This insularity against what the practice knife represents is something I am working on with my students and myself. I am getting things more and more to a point where even though it is known that the thing is a softo, when one is attacked, they'd better treat it like the real thing as much as possible. Of course, I have my particular ways of helping to get this point across . Doing the same thing with bokken to train folks for machete attacks, which tend to be common in these parts and is a concern with some. Of course the bokken is much longer, which is a good thing I think. Constant work in progress.
Quote:
I hinted at it in a previous post on this thread but some of Tomiki's tanto dori techniques (kata) are interesting to say the least. Half of the Nidan training is learning how to target with the knife including my favourite "the yakuza belly thrust" which I understand is and always has been quite popular amoung certain wayward individuals. Even here though - I am not sure some of the tanto dori techniques are worth trying in the field exactly as they are (the neck trap one gives me the willies).
Lol, I could pay dearly for this one. That exact kata is what I am working on for my next grade. I have a problem with that same neck trap tech. It looks like suicide to me against someone who intends to struggle (and they call this the Goshin no kata?) I would not consider that pin to control an empty hand, much less a blade. Again, here is where we must separate the idealised environment of kata and dojo training from what can exist in the realm of infinite variables.

I love that yakuza belly thrust btw, so sneaky .
Quote:
Last time someone threatened to use a knife on me I just stood tall and stared him down. The little yak wanna be backed down.
And this is what I was alluding to in my earlier post. The confidence (sometimes false I'd agree) that one may get when handling knife attacks (even soft ones) in an unpredictable dojo environment may serve one well when faced with a similar situation in reality. When one is accustomed facing a knife being used in a threatening manner their initial response may not be to focus oin the weapon as the person closes to strike, but may maintain their centre and pursue a course of action that may end up in them not becoming sushi.

Just some thoughts.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 08:08 PM   #27
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Online
Quote:
Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
That exact kata is what I am working on for my next grade. I have a problem with that same neck trap tech. It looks like suicide to me against someone who intends to struggle (and they call this the Goshin no kata?) I would not consider that pin to control an empty hand, much less a blade. Again, here is where we must separate the idealised environment of kata and dojo training from what can exist in the realm of infinite variables.
To be fair - the Tomiki katas are not in this situation do that but are designed/chosen to teach a whole range of options. For example the first technique of the junanhon has a shomen-uchi like strike coupled to a taisabaki as part of the initial movement followed by the technique (shomenate) itself. Once you do randori you find that you never use that block - my favourite being a downward circular variation. In actual fact Tomiki wanted to teach a shomen-uchi type block somewhere in his junanahon and this was the best place to put it.

OK - so what does this have to do with the neck trap. Same basic enter, get your palm under the elbow as usual and instead of bringing the hand straight up cut across your chest, trap and twist. It is the same technique just the hold is different.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 08:15 PM   #28
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,133
Online
Knife Attacks

As a California cop for almost thirty years I got to see more than my share of knife attacks and knife victims. Most of the surviving victims reported that they didn't know a knife was involved in the altercation and that they thought they had been punched. None reported being confronted with a knife ala "West Side Story". The same doesn't hold true for the robbery victims I interviewed who were confronted with a knife. Usually the suspect displayed the knife and the victim gave up the property.

I was only directly attacked by a knife once and managed to call for help and keep out of the poor drunk's way. While I was legally and ethically justified in taking his life with my firearm, we eventually chose to mace him and knock the knife away with a baton blow to the forearm. It all worked out well in that case.

A friend, another cop with impressive credentials and common sense was confronted at an ATM as she withdrew $40.00 in cash. She was yondan in TKD, an MP Captain in the National Guard, and a crack shot who was armed at the time. Her assailant threatened her with a screwdriver and she chose to give up the money and get a good description and direction of travel which resulted in his almost immediate arrest. She received some criticism from her peers who suggested that she was a big sissy for not fighting or shooting the suspect. She smiled and reminded them that she was there and they weren't.

Aikido is an excellent tool in the event of a knife attack; almost as good as fleeing, passing out, or shooting your attacker. It is better than nothing, but I honestly don't believe that defending barehanded is generally wise and each individual has to make a choice at that instant - and further, none of us has room to criticize the choice made by the victim. As I said, aikido is an excellent tool, but there is also an excellent chance that some loaded knucklehead will seriously injure you, even if you win the encounter. You certainly will have a better chance than Joe Lunchbox if you choose to fight.

Sort of a case of "Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl". Train hard and avoid the situation if possible.

Michael

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2003, 05:39 AM   #29
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
OK - so what does this have to do with the neck trap. Same basic enter, get your palm under the elbow as usual and instead of bringing the hand straight up cut across your chest, trap and twist. It is the same technique just the hold is different.
Yep, this is how I tend to do it 99% of the time, works a lot safer that way. Of course, kata is kata when it comes to grading, no modifications there, but it's all good in my book.

Michael: Very good post. Well said.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2003, 05:57 AM   #30
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,200
Offline
I loved Michael's story about his friend. That is a totally successful Self-defense story. What she said about being there is true. The only way you know what to do in a SD situation is to stay aware and listen to what your inner self tells you. No one else can judge the situation because they were not there and they are not you, with whatever strengths and weaknessess you bring to the situation.

I really enjoy training with tanto. It seems to heighten everyone's awareness and the excitment in class goes up. My feeling about training with tanto is that by training and teaching what I have been taught, my center and technique will become stronger and I will be able to deal with whatever SD situation comes along.

So my answer about to keep the knife or get rid of it depends on the situation. I trust the answer will be available in the moment.

Way before I started training

a knife was held to my throat. I stayed very still and did what I was told. It worked..... I am here....so it was the perfect thing to do.

Mary Eastland

Berkshire Hills Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2003, 10:21 AM   #31
justinm
Location: Maidenhead
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 167
United Kingdom
Offline
It does worry me that aikido can give people an exaggerated view of their capabilities when it comes to self defence. I think full-on randori is often the best way to break through these sorts of delusions, especially if something like a magic marker is used.

It is something I have been thinking about a lot since starting a dojo, where most new students put 'self-defence' at the top of their list of reasons to start. I think in future I will explain that "I am teaching a martial art, not self-defence. There is a significant difference, although one may contribute to your ability in the other."

Justin

Justin McCarthy
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2003, 10:01 AM   #32
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
I was attacked by someone with a knife and would support Michaels assessment - I didn't know one was involved initially but moving off centre line saved my life.

Sometimes rough randori with marker pens is useful for understanding, but it is not a good training technique. Real situations CANNOT be represented in the dojo. We practise short, rehersed body responses so when our mind switches off (in a fight) our body can still do these. The training technique in aikido is VERY useful practically and no amount of sparring or other supposed 'realistic' methods would have helped me then.

Aikido should not be used flipantly or to look cool (hey watch this fellas I'm going to disarm this threatening looking bloke). I didn't have any option to avoid my attack (it was very sudden), but I will always owe a debt to Ueshiba and aikido for the simple ability to move when I really had to.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2003, 10:09 AM   #33
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
P.S. the more I learn about aikido the more I feel that philosophising about 'what is best' is useless unless someone with real experience is making the comments. Over-analysing techniques (esp. the well, what if I did that) can be detrimental as we end up with something that has no application to actual situations.

I always say this;- to understand aikido is to understand the aikido training method.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2003, 12:55 PM   #34
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
P.S. the more I learn about aikido the more I feel that philosophising about 'what is best' is useless unless someone with real experience is making the comments. Over-analysing techniques (esp. the well, what if I did that) can be detrimental as we end up with something that has no application to actual situations.

I always say this;- to understand aikido is to understand the aikido training method.

Ian
Well said Ian. I agree completely.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2003, 05:13 PM   #35
Bogeyman
Dojo: UW-La Crosse Aikido
Location: La Crosse, WI
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 68
Offline
Ian, I agree completely with what you said. Sometimes we tend to philosophize about what ifs and that doesn't necessarily translate into ability. I prefer to study with instructors that have real life experience (like police officers) for that very reason.

E
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 03:09 PM   #36
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Cold Steel has some interesting dvd on knife fighting.

They have a competition called the Cold Steel Challenge.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 03:37 PM   #37
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Get the current November 04 issue of Black Belt Magazine.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2004, 10:04 PM   #38
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: knife defenses

I take Filipino Martial Arts, that's heavily based on the Sayoc style, which has a crapload of knife fighting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2004, 03:10 PM   #39
garry cantrell
Location: texas
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: knife defenses

i was doing some volunteer work in a soup kitchen some years ago when a fight broke out amongst a couple of the folks beings served. i was hustling one of the combatants through the kitchen and out the back door when my guy picked up a butcher knife and tried to plunge it into my chest. very fluid motion. no feinting, no taunts, just picked it up and went for me. the thing is, my ma-ai was way off - i didn't perceive him as a threat to me and, in fact, we were working in concert to get him away from the other guy - no clue as to why he grabbed the knife. i suspect his personal demon was in the form of mental illness. nonetheless - not much room in a small soup kitchen, and i was standing maybe 1 1/2 feet from him - next thing i knew, his face was against the wall, he was on his tip toes, and i kinda had the beginnings of a shihonage with his right wrist in my right hand and the knife was on the floor - and a half dollar size flap of skin was hanging from my left elbow and my shirt was torn. kinduva terry dobson sensei, no footwork, scenario. so, what's the point of the story? well, this is a martial arts site - so war stories are always fun to recount, but mostly its to say that sometimes you just do what you do because there's no time to consider anything else. it wasn't a fight, it was only a moment.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2004, 08:40 PM   #40
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Quote:
Thomas Dixon wrote:
I take Filipino Martial Arts, that's heavily based on the Sayoc style, which has a crapload of knife fighting.
Uh...I think something got magically deleted...Happens all the time but usually I edit and add it back.

Anyway, since I do't remember what I was thinking however long ago that was, I suggest you look into FMAs if you're interested in knife fighting/defense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2004, 01:36 PM   #41
Daniel Moore
Dojo: Bushido School of Yoshinkan Aikido
Location: Kent
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 10
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: knife defenses

In a Saturday pub scuffle I watched as a friend of my fathers (3rd dan in Aiki-Jutsu) was attacked by a drunken idiot holding a small switch blade. The attacker didn't perform Dojo friendly thrusts and swipes, but did quickly stagger over and wave the blade quite quickly (for someone drunk), and proceeded to cut off my fathers friends index finger and blind his left eye. With all his experience he couldn't defend himself against an attacker who doesn't even know where his own hands are, let alone act in a logical manner. This kind of attack is undefendible as you cannot predict where that blade is going to be next, in your ribs or in the attackers own leg. There is no defense other than running away.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2004, 02:39 PM   #42
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Hi Daniel,

Couldn't help but read you above post after the one on diminishing teaching standards.

Imho black belt only means someone was able to pass the requirements of a particular testing curriculum. It should be no indicator of a person's real life combat ability imho (though in some cases it may be applicable). As one may see in many of the proven civilian self defence programs, situational training and conditioning of reflex and flinch reactions do more to set up successful responses than learning a bunch of techniques in a static or cooperative manner (enter the Aikido and it's effectiveness question).

I'm sorry to hear about the individual who got injured, but there are ways to defend against these things if escape is not an option. The key in training is to deal with the particular scenario or train one's instinctive reactions to operate in a manner conducive to defending oneself from a variety of knife attack scenarios, focussing on principles of application and reaching the opponent safely. The ending techniques are very secondary imo.

I've had a 4th kyu student who got attacked by a mugger with a knife. Due to the ridiculous amounts of resistance tanto randori we do with someone trying to stab you, he was able to "just react" and got the mugger into sankyo. The guy took off leaving him with the knife in his hand and very shocked I might add as reality slowly set back in.

It's not what we train so much, but how we train that makes us effective imho.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 11-24-2004 at 02:53 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2004, 03:25 PM   #43
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,133
Online
Re: knife defenses

Dear Daniel,

Sorry to hear of your friend's terrible injuries. Obviously none of us will really understand what happened that evening. Maybe the yondan couldn't believe he was really being attacked and failed to react. Maybe he simply froze. Maybe he had been drinking himself and wasn't at his best. Maybe the physical environment (tables, stoves, etc.) kept his movement limited. Maybe he just made a mistake. And maybe he did the very best he could under the circumstances and prevented himself from suffering even more serious injuries. I personally believe that NO art will guarentee absolute success in every encounter, including the use of firearms. Training, good hard training, will increase chances of surviving without injuries. I often think of the analogy of seat belt use; they won't guarentee you will survive an auto crash, but they sure improve the chances.

I hope your friend recovers soon.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2004, 09:12 AM   #44
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Quote:
Daniel Moore wrote:
In a Saturday pub scuffle I watched as a friend of my fathers (3rd dan in Aiki-Jutsu) was attacked by a drunken idiot holding a small switch blade. The attacker didn't perform Dojo friendly thrusts and swipes, but did quickly stagger over and wave the blade quite quickly (for someone drunk), and proceeded to cut off my fathers friends index finger and blind his left eye. With all his experience he couldn't defend himself against an attacker who doesn't even know where his own hands are, let alone act in a logical manner. This kind of attack is undefendible as you cannot predict where that blade is going to be next, in your ribs or in the attackers own leg. There is no defense other than running away.
Very sad and an all too common occurence in todays society.

I think we have to accept that much of dojo practice and dealing with extreme street violence are not strictly compatable. That doesnt invalidate the practice but clearly there are no guarantees that what you practice will easily translate into something applicable to this scenario.

If you look at the work of the British Combat Association and similar organisations the first thing they tell you about dealing with knife weilding maniacs is that you will get cut. adrenaline will explode through your body and dojo practice goes out of the window. For this reason they attempt to inject similar pressure into their training with abuse, swearing, dialogue and threats along with the attacks themselves.

Perfect dojo techniques even from the most skilled aren't possible when all the other factors come into play - darkness, strange clothes, slippery floors, loud music or whatever.

all you can do is minimise the risk and take the damage where its not going to kill you while dealing with the problem in the simplest way possible. eg back of the hands and forearms.

If the option of running away is there take it. If pride presents a problem then think of achieving a personal best. Do a sub-four minute mile.

If its not an option then the simplest techniques are what you have left to rely on. Anything elaborate will increase the risk factor. Learn to hit hard.

If this isn't what you want to do try to avoid such confrontations in the first place. Be aware of the ever increasing danger.

You don't elaborate on how this started Daniel ...were there any warning signs? did the guy come from no-where?

Anyway...not trying to lecture, I'm sure that there are others with greater experience than me around. Just offering up some general thoughts.

I also hope your friend recovers as much and as soon as possible.

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2004, 01:23 PM   #45
Daniel Moore
Dojo: Bushido School of Yoshinkan Aikido
Location: Kent
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 10
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Thanks for your messages, and reminding me of a few things. Especially that the grade isn't a picture of combat ability, but the friend is a licensed doorman (though he has been a chef for the last 5 years, and no doubt a little rusty) and at the time thought that he could defend himself, and that it was the attackers drunken movement and lack of co-ordination that meant he couldn't take the knife off him as he was too unpredictable. Then again it was a very busy and crowded area and the friend did have a drink or too before the fight, affecting his judgement and balance.
Any comments very welcome,
Daniel Moore
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2004, 03:34 AM   #46
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Not much more to say except how frustrating it is when the person trying to excercise some control and consideration for the assailant gets hurt, yet if they meet the assailant with the same disregard for humanity that these weapon brandishing fools display, they risk running foul of the law.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2004, 08:24 AM   #47
Taliesin
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 82
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Even with Tanto Jiyu Wasa with a real knife - you are only trained to deal with the sort of attacks a unskilled attacker would use, committed stabs, slashes, etc.

If your attacked is skilled with a knife, I very much doubt you would see it at all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2004, 08:50 AM   #48
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Even with Tanto Jiyu Wasa with a real knife - you are only trained to deal with the sort of attacks a unskilled attacker would use, committed stabs, slashes, etc.

If your attacked is skilled with a knife, I very much doubt you would see it at all.
I agree. If they show you it then normally thats to intimidate you. Maybe as a persuader to give up your wallet or to back you down.

If its a serious attempt to harm you theres no mileage in waving it around to let you know that its on its way.

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2004, 09:47 PM   #49
mr_crystal
Location: Bahrain
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4
Bahrain
Offline
Re: knife defenses

Some of the most dangerous "knife fighters", if we can call them that, are the ones which never achieved any education in a dojo/school of any MA and prowl the streets. With a knife, you can get cut anywhere and at any time...you can even cut yourself in the kitchen.They are dangerous and I think that's the bottom line. I agree with most of comments in this forum, avoidance is your best bet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2004, 12:17 PM   #50
Diarmuid66
Dojo: Shodokan London
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 9
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: knife defenses

this thread has some very sage posts..it leads to some interesting ideas...of course one of the challenges of a martial art is to control oneself. the ego and adrenaline will tell you to fight often when you DO have an escape route...I cannot be the only one who has performed bokuto dori (taking sword) and thought in "real life" this has only a one in a million chance of working!!!
I suppose you have to take the view that with the "no escape " scenario you have two choices...take the one in a million chance or kneel down and beg the other guy to make it quick!!!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
live blades Paula Lydon Weapons 16 02-13-2005 05:29 PM
Knife Work fatebass21 Weapons 28 02-01-2005 03:10 PM
Aiki-tanto knife fighting? drDalek General 16 05-22-2004 10:49 AM
Systema Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev, Part 1 aikibaka131 Seminars 2 07-22-2003 12:45 PM
It wasn't about the knife Paula Lydon General 29 06-24-2003 01:22 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:47 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate