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Old 08-26-2003, 05:18 AM   #51
Kensai
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As a poster on Bullshido.com, which is populated be some very talented MMA individuals, Aikido can be seen as a soft touch.

I know different, sure I'm not pushed as hard as a pro MMA fighter, 90% of Sherdoggers probably dont train that hard. I've trained with BJJ/MMA guys that have had nothing but praise for the style of Aikido I do, a compliment that I return to them when I step on their mat.

Aikido is was you make it.

Bottomline for me is, do I train sincerily. Do I fall down not because I tank, but because its real, do I tap because its real. For me the answer is yes.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 08-26-2003, 07:22 AM   #52
Sven Groot
 
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After reading the I hate Aikido thread and this thread, I would like to quote Dutch comedian Freek de Jonge:

"Most people make generalisations"
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Old 08-26-2003, 01:20 PM   #53
DaveO
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It's interesting how a simple "Look at this annoying thread" post swelled into such a good discussion, innit?

The "I hate Aikido" thread was, in fact, ameturish, childish, and a few other "-ishes" I don't have words to at the moment. It does however (as some have stated) make a very good point regarding Aikido training.

Now I'm going to annoy some people here; I apologize in advance.

First; let's be under no doubts: Aikido does work; and works spectacularly. I know - I've used it in a real-life situation. (I described the encounter in the "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" thread.) I point this out because there seem to be many who take Aikido without trusting its effectiveness.

Please note: I don't know aikido yet - just the beginnings. I'm just a 4th kyu - a 5th at the time of the incident.

But here's the kicker: Aikido - or Karate, or Kung Fu, BJJ or Jedi Lightsaber training does not beat The Bad Guys, the user does. Success in a fight (by which I include a self-defence situation) is not dependant on what you know, or how much you know, it is dependant on the person himself - whether or not he has the discipline and wherewithal to act correctly in the split-second timing of a fight. MA doesn't teach this; experience does.

For that reason; when it comes to MMA and other sparring matches, MMA practicioners will have a decided advantage due to their greater experience in facing "real-live" opponents. This is mitigated to some extent by Aikido's randori and centering exercises, but not nearly enough, IMO.

I love Aikido, but I am constantly frustrated by the attitude of some of our instructors; who tend to spout "peace, love and Ki" as the core of self-defence. While I laud the goal; I point out that without a solid tactical sense; good discipline and firm base of experience in actually getting up there and laying hands on someone trying to hurt you, such flowery thoughts are ultimately self-destructive in the light of a real encounter.

I'm a fighter by nature and training; I both practice and study (with books and everything!! ) the tactics and science of self-defence. I have, on several occasions, taken down yudansha at their own game because though their thechnique is vastly superior to my own; their skills aren't - they don't have the same tactical awareness and sheer "I'm going to win, period!" grunt required to win under such conditions. Which is a shame - if they did; they would be well-nigh unbeatable; instead they stick to line training, "proper attacks", and nice-looking ukemi.

So; I suppose it depends on why you're taking Aikido. If you're taking it for personal betterment or stress relief, great! If, however, you're taking it for self-defence; I strongly suggest you look at the art from the viewpoint of: "What will I do if this were real", and act accordingly.

Sorry; this is WAY too long and off-base; I'll shut up now.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 08-26-2003, 01:56 PM   #54
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The problems that the original poster of the "I hate Aikido" thread had with Aikido was from sparring with an Aikido practioner who ended up being a piss-poor uke in his "home-style"

I recently watched a Muay Thai fight on tv and from everything I heard about it, I was expecting broken bones, lots of blood and huge gnarly bruises. To my dissapointment these muay thai guys did not even knee each other in the groin when they got each other in grappling range.

Why? because it was a highly restricted, organised sporting event, not some back-alley deathmatch. Judo does not allow gripping the face, the hair or manipulating the small joints, atleast not where I went a couple of times. I am not clear on what is allowed in bjj but I can say with certainty that the "tastier" techniques of Aikido would probably be illegal on their mat.

I have to add though that I also find certain other Aikido practioners I have tangled with "questionable", arrogance, bloated egos and over-eager bullies as well as prematurely-enlightened sissies abound.

If you cant even take a well-placed intentional punch to the face and remain friends with your opponent then you lack the moral fibre and character of even the most novice boxer. (Not that I ever punched anyone in the face, well, not intentionally anyway)
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Old 08-26-2003, 02:36 PM   #55
Irony
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Quote:
Dave Organ (DaveO) wrote:
But here's the kicker: Aikido - or Karate, or Kung Fu, BJJ or Jedi Lightsaber training does not beat The Bad Guys, the user does.
I dunno... Jedi Lightsaber training might do it.

No way am I gonna go in for kotegaeshi when one of those things is humming at me.


Chris Pasley
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Old 08-26-2003, 02:45 PM   #56
paw
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sigh.....

Clearly off topic, but I'll bite ....

Wynand,
Quote:
Why? because it was a highly restricted, organised sporting event, not some back-alley deathmatch. Judo does not allow gripping the face, the hair or manipulating the small joints, atleast not where I went a couple of times. I am not clear on what is allowed in bjj but I can say with certainty that the "tastier" techniques of Aikido would probably be illegal on their mat.
A regular comment, addressed by Paul Sharp of the Straight Blast Gym:

As someone that is part of a group of guy's that are frequently dismissed as simply sport fighters I hope I have something useful to add.

Why the assumption that you can beat us without rules when you can't beat us with rules?

Those rules happen to protect both of us, it would seem that most have forgotten that small yet significant point. Whats keeping me from maiming you for life when I get position and you obviously can't get away? The rules, take those rules away and I'll curb your ass right after I knock/choke you out.

The complete text may be found at

Street v Sport

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-26-2003, 03:38 PM   #57
opherdonchin
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While I laud the goal; I point out that without a solid tactical sense; good discipline and firm base of experience in actually getting up there and laying hands on someone trying to hurt you, such flowery thoughts are ultimately self-destructive in the light of a real encounter.
Dave,

you speak from experience where I cannot, so take what I say in that context.

I feel like the text I've quoted contradicts itself. You 'laud the goal' and yet at the same time you criticize it for not achieving other goals. If my goal is to be as effective as I can be without seeking to hurt others or compete with them, then it makes sense to purposely close myeslf off to options that conflict with this goal.

On the other hand, if you see yourself as a fighter and you enjoy and seek the opportunity to win and come out ahead, then, of course, you have a different goal. I might win less often and still see myself as accomplishing my goals. You might hurt people more often, but still see yourself as accomplishing your goals. There's a lot to be learned by each of us from seeing the other persons path and trying our best to understand or connect to it, but there's little to be gained from trying to figure out which is better.

Now, one of the most interesting claims that is made about Aikido is that it teaches you that, in choosing to eschew competition and the pursuit of winnning, you will become more effective rather than less effective. Certainly, I've found that that held true for me in my life and in my dealings with people. Like I said earlier, I'm in no position to judge whether it holds true in a fight.

I would claim that it's the sort of thing that is hard to judge without trying it and hard to try without at least somewhat believing in it. Thus, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy to a certain extent.

I would agree with you that 'knowledge of the tactics and science of self defence' would make a lot of difference in a fight. That's independent, though, of the 'I'm going to win, period,' attitude.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-26-2003, 04:31 PM   #58
DaveO
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Hello Opher, please let me explain my position.

1st; I stated I'm a fighter by nature and training - that does not mean I enjoy fighting, or winning. Personally, I think fighting is a stupid, senseless act save in the defence of yourself or another. What it does mean is that I am both prepared and capable to do so if the need arises. Hope that clears that bit up.

Now, to the important bits:
Quote:
I feel like the text I've quoted contradicts itself. You 'laud the goal' and yet at the same time you criticize it for not achieving other goals. If my goal is to be as effective as I can be without seeking to hurt others or compete with them, then it makes sense to purposely close myeslf off to options that conflict with this goal.
Actually; it doesn't, although on the surface it might seem to. Let me see if I can explain; it's hard for me to put my thoughts into words sometimes.

When one enters a conflict, either willingly or not (i.e. in a "fight" or "defence situation"), one must keep one goal uppermost: to win. When it is real; there can be no such thing as a satisfactory draw or educational loss; losing means a very real possibility of serious injury and - while statistically extremely unlikely - death. As sad as it is; that fact cannot be disputed. This, then, is the core of the "I'm going to win, period" quote - the decision to commit yourself totally and completely to achieving a successful outcome.

But how you achieve it is another matter altogether. Once you've made that commitment, you then choose your method and act accordingly. Ideally; you defend against your opponent (or more likely; opponents) using just enough force to win, and no more. Often, (and this is where some people run into trouble regarding this question) it may be necessary to use more force then desired. I'll use my one example to illustrate:

In my situation; I was set upon by 3 drunks outside an alternative bar they'd been tossed out of. It was winter; they were plastered, they wanted to punish someone for the injustice; I was the likely target. If there was just one; it would have been simple - just tenkan, keep him out of reach and fuddle him up enough 'till he got real dizzy - a tactic I've used long before I started Aikido. BUT - there were 3 of them. Now; Dummy 1 was drunk enough to do a seriously stupid thing: he reached out and grabbed me so he could plant one on with his other hand - perhaps to make sure which of the two of me he was seeing was real? I dunno. Dummies 2 and 3 were coming in for the sides; I had no time for games. So I put nikkyo on hard - 210lbs. coming down onto his wrist with full force. I've since been told nikkyo doesn't work on drunk guys - all I can say is wanna bet? He shrieked like Gary Coleman trying out for the Vienna Boy's Choir and hit his knees. That scream was enough to bring Dummies 2 and 3 up short just long enough for me to send Dummy 1 into the wall and reposition - the whole thing lasted, I would guess, about 10 seconds.

Now believe me, I don't want to hurt anyone; even a drunk dummy. But in the end; he wasn't injured, nor were the other two (who never did get involved; they took to their heels when I said "next!" Intimidation IS a viable form of defence.) More importantly; I wasn't hurt.

I hope I haven't gone too astray here. The point is; you can see the two different points at work: 1) the determination to win, and 2) the decision to use the best possible method for the time.

So it could be said that of the two points being discussed, the decision to use minimum force is qualitative, while the determination to win is quantitative.

On a side note Opher, thanks so much for such an excellent reply; it's just the sort of debating I enjoy this forum for. By asking; you've forced me to put into words things I have difficulty expressing. Doing so helps immensely in my own understanding and future teaching of the topic.

Cheers!


Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 08-26-2003, 07:04 PM   #59
Amassus
 
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Talking

Well, if nothing else that mma thread got many aikidoka talking


"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 08-26-2003, 09:42 PM   #60
opherdonchin
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Dave,

I enjoyed that story quite a bit.
Quote:
When one enters a conflict, either willingly or not (i.e. in a "fight" or "defence situation"), one must keep one goal uppermost: to win. When it is real; there can be no such thing as a satisfactory draw or educational loss; losing means a very real possibility of serious injury and - while statistically extremely unlikely - death.
I'm told that in any serious fight there is a real possibility of serious injury and even death whether you win or lose. Of course, not every 'conflict' is a serious fight, but maybe that's what you meant.

In any case, it's a sort of 'I makes my choices, I takes my lumps.' My choice, right now, is not to train with this 'win or die' attitude. It's not very interesting to me, it doesn't seem very relevant to my life, and I'm much more interested in finding out how effective I can be without that attitude. It's possible that I'll be less effective than I might otherwise have been, I can't really know, can I?

Still, I feel that I have a lot to gain by training that way and, in the unlikely event of a 'real' fight, I just have to hope that I'm as effective as the situation requires. Of course, that's true no matter how I train.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 08-27-2003, 02:01 AM   #61
DaveO
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Hello again, Opher!

The great thing about Aikido is that it is what you choose to make it; anyone is able to proceed in the way they see best.

I practice the tactical side, my Sensei practices the technical side, our Sempai (and yourself apparently) prefer the spiritual side. Great! That's wonderful; that's what Aikido's there for!

Just to be clear though; I don't train any different really than any other student; I relax and have a lot of fun in class. I'm not "go, go,go!" all the time as you might suspect. The difference is in the intent, that's all. If someone's learning a technique, I don't resist saying "not working..." unless they want me to; I bail as fast as the next guy, for all the reasons we do ukemi. Its only when people start talking in absolutes that I debate the real-life application; you know, when someone says "This always works", or "Bad Guys will do this"; particularly if the info offered is - excuse me please - dead wrong.

Cheers!

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
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Old 08-27-2003, 05:27 AM   #62
Dennis Hooker
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"I hate Aikido"

Man oh man I know, me too. Keeps me on the mat all the time. When I was younger I could have been enjoying the amorous affection of a young lady but noooo I had to do Aikido. When I became middle aged I could have been embarking on a carrier or wealth and fame but Noooo I had to do Aikido. Now in my dotage I should be either fishing or playing the banjo in my rocking chair on the front porch watching the grandkids play in the yard like other sensible old folks but nooo I am going to do Aikido. I don't know if hate is a strong enough word for this addiction :-)

Dennis Hooker

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Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 08-27-2003, 05:44 AM   #63
drDalek
 
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
sigh.....

Why the assumption that you can beat us without rules when you can't beat us with rules?

Those rules happen to protect both of us, it would seem that most have forgotten that small yet significant point. Whats keeping me from maiming you for life when I get position and you obviously can't get away? The rules, take those rules away and I'll curb your ass right after I knock/choke you out.
I dont want to burst any bubbles for you there but you do realise that grappling(judo, bjj); trapping(aikido, wing chun) and striking(karate, taekwondo) are entirely different games with entirely different rules.

My point was: why would I as an Aikido practitioner ever think that I have any kind of advantage when GRAPPLING with a grappler?

If I had my way (which you dont in a competition) I would never even let the grappler get within grappling range of me. I cant beat them at their own game and I am not allowed to play my game. Clearly I am at the disadvantage.

What the original poster of the "I hate ..." thread was moaning about was that his uke (who happens to do Aikido) turned out to be a whiny little sissie when he wanted to grapple with him.

I am just saying that if the Aikido practioner had his way (and his Aikido was worth a damn) the grappler would never have had an opportunity to apply his grappling techniques.

Personally the only fault that I could find in the original posters first post was that he automatically associated one bad experience with an uke with the style the uke practiced. The rest of the posters however need to be challenged to a serious of back-alley deathmatches for not pointing this flaw out to him. (just kidding)
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Old 08-27-2003, 07:02 AM   #64
paw
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Wynand,
Quote:
I dont want to burst any bubbles for you there but you do realise that grappling(judo, bjj); trapping(aikido, wing chun) and striking(karate, taekwondo) are entirely different games with entirely different rules.
I take it you didn't read the entire article. That coupled with your own admission that you don't know what is allowed in bjj lead me to several pretty obvious conclusions.

Instead of saying how the posters at sherdog's don't understand aikido's perspective, you might want to take some time trying to understand their perspective. Once you do, it's very easy to see why they say what they say --- and contextually, why they are unlikely to change their opinion.

Finally, I do find it interesting that you refer to aikido as a trapping art, as you are the first and only person I'm aware of to do so. Further, there's a very serious debate among JKD'ers as to if trapping "works" at all ... but I suppose you're aware of that. If you had bothered to read link, you'd also be aware of Mr. Sharp's thoughts about trapping as well (coincidence?).

If you really want to talk about sport v street or trapping, start a new thread or let's go to another forum. IMO, this thread has long past any usefulness. It began with rather dubious behavior of one group (sherdog's) towards an "innocent" bystander and is now filled with the same dubious behavior directed back.

Newsflash: There's a group of martial artists/martial styists who believe aikido is worthless in every respect. Deal with it.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-27-2003, 08:23 AM   #65
actoman
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Grr!

Those who are dissing another art IMO are being very disrespectful, and are probably very undisciplined, hotheaded people with no knowledge of the basis for the art..peace.

In other words..A**holes!
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Old 08-27-2003, 08:59 AM   #66
drDalek
 
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
<snip>

Newsflash: There's a group of martial artists/martial styists who believe aikido is worthless in every respect. Deal with it.

Regards,

Paul
Thanks for the interesting counter-points you have made so far. I just want to let you know that I have no problem with "sport" arts as opposed to "traditional" arts. I am also not attacking you or anyone else doing sport arts.

I think you might have missed the point of my posts so far, my point was the old "make him play your game etc..." strategy and it certainly never was about whether sport arts are better than traditional or visa versa.

I am starting out in what I hope will be a long and interesting Judo career to compliment my Aikido. I am looking forward to entering tourneys and competing. Clearly I cannot possibly truly believe that sport arts are in any way deficient as martial arts when I am doing one myself.

As for your little newsflash there: I am not interested enough nor invested enough in the "image" or public perception of Aikido to realy care whether people like or dislike what I do. I am also (surprisingly) not trying to "convert" you to our ways, I am merely pointing out where you seem to misunderstand what I typed.
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Old 08-27-2003, 09:12 AM   #67
paw
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Wynand,

With all due respect,


Quote:
I think you might have missed the point of my posts so far, my point was the old "make him play your game etc..." strategy and it certainly never was about whether sport arts are better than traditional or visa versa.
If you had read the articles on the url I posted, you would know that I did understand your point, and that I was subtly questioning it's validity. (Which I gather is based on your determination of aikido as a trapping art)
Quote:
As for your little newsflash there: I am not interested enough nor invested enough in the "image" or public perception of Aikido to realy care whether people like or dislike what I do.
Really? Didn't keep you from posting on the topic and making statements that could be considered less than flattering remarks about competitions that you've not participated in.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:14 AM   #68
happysod
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Thanks Jorgen, it was actually quite interesting to surf their forums. But as nearly every martial art came in for some stick and their forum actively throve on flaming I'd personally not bother responding. The originally poster did have a point with the uke he met, but you meet this in any dojo/gym/sport - the I'm here to show what I know rather than the I'm here to learn type (even - esp- between aikido "styles"). If he'd actually went to an aikido dojo and found nothing even of interest, his point of view might have had more weight for me.

Paul, nice article, but I've got to ask how long you can remain a coach in this style? The reason I ask is the one of the philosophy points where you must be willing to take on all new-comers to the gym without question - I can just see this getting rather brutal. Hopefully it is with some ground rules in place? (It was good to see that they didn't stress "win against every newcomer" )
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Old 08-27-2003, 11:20 AM   #69
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Ian,

First, I don't train with any of the SBG guys or their affiliates. I do like a great deal of their philosophy and training methods. So, you'll have to take my answers with a grain of salt.
Quote:
Paul, nice article, but I've got to ask how long you can remain a coach in this style?
Indefinately.
Quote:
The reason I ask is the one of the philosophy points where you must be willing to take on all new-comers to the gym without question - I can just see this getting rather brutal. Hopefully it is with some ground rules in place?
I'm sure there are some guidelines that both parties are expected to follow. Anyway, the point behind the philosophy is that one is willing, not that one will "win". So the coach is not exempt from the performance standard that the students are expected to maintain. I presume this eliminates the "cult of personality" and appeal to positional authority that can happen when an instructor doesn't have to interact with their students during dynamic drills or randori.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-27-2003, 11:22 AM   #70
Ron Tisdale
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I believe Dave said;
Quote:
it is real; there can be no such thing as a satisfactory draw or educational loss; losing means a very real possibility of serious injury and - while statistically extremely unlikely - death.
Just for the sake of arguement...isn't there another choice, to Survive?

What about not fighting...using the framework of your story, just evade and disengage, run away? By the way, I liked the story...I've heard that "next..." used more than once by more than one aikidoka.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-27-2003, 02:18 PM   #71
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
If you had read the articles on the url I posted, you would know that I did understand your point, and that I was subtly questioning it's validity. (Which I gather is based on your determination of aikido as a trapping art)

Really? Didn't keep you from posting on the topic and making statements that could be considered less than flattering remarks about competitions that you've not participated in.
I still dont care about the view others have of Aikido but you seem to be attacking me personally now. I kinda like that, it means that I am influencing you, probably getting you all riled up, across possibly thousands of kilometers, spanning time, culture and points of view.

Anyway, putting aside my glee at the above thought for a moment, Aikido is a trapping art purely by logical elimination. Its not a striking art and it certainly bears no resemblance to the kind of entries, strategies and distancing used in grappling so it can only be a trapping art.

It certainly is not wing chun though and you seem to think it is. Maybe you should go read your mentor's advertising again, you'll see he is talking about wing chun concepts in his little tirade against trapping.

We certainly seem to be talking past each other though, I am not trying to sell my services as an instructor and I can clearly see what motivated the original poster of the "I hate Aikido" thread on their forum, I already expressed my views on what I felt was wrong with his attitude, if you dont feel like reading it again,

ahem,

Deal with it.
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Old 08-27-2003, 02:41 PM   #72
paw
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Quote:
I still dont care about the view others have of Aikido but you seem to be attacking me personally now. I kinda like that, it means that I am influencing you, probably getting you all riled up, across possibly thousands of kilometers, spanning time, culture and points of view.
LOL! Everyone should have a dream..... But seriously, where do you feel you were personally attacked? If it hurt that much, I'll gladly apologize.
Quote:
Aikido is a trapping art purely by logical elimination.
An art that seeks to throw and pin and uses joint locks is a trapping art? You must have a very unique definition of trapping.
Quote:
Its not a striking art and it certainly bears no resemblance to the kind of entries, strategies and distancing used in grappling
Hmm.... Looks a lot like judo to me, but what do I know?
Quote:
Maybe you should go read your mentor's advertising again, you'll see he is talking about wing chun concepts in his little tirade against trapping.
LOL! Wing chun is never mentioned, nor is Paul Sharp my mentor. That would be two more things you're wrong about.

But thanks for the laughs....

Best of luck in Judo,

Paul
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Old 08-27-2003, 04:06 PM   #73
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I have sat on top of mount Everest for 20 years, meditating on this thread.

Finally, enlightement came upon me, and I have descended from the heavens to share it with you.

Here it i... oh no ! They found me ! I don't know HOW but they FOUND ME !!

The snowmen are coming ! THE SNOWMEN ARE COMING !!! Agghddfsfjslkj (crunch) (splat)
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Old 08-27-2003, 04:21 PM   #74
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Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage) wrote:
The snowmen are coming ! THE SNOWMEN ARE COMING !!! Agghddfsfjslkj (crunch) (splat)
It seems that the snowmen were mixed martial arts experts...

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Old 08-27-2003, 08:15 PM   #75
aiki_what
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The Snowmen Know....

Ahhh....see the snowmen know. A steel cage death match between Aikodoka, Judoka, MMA participants and yeti is the only way to resolve the issue.
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