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Old 08-25-2003, 09:28 AM   #26
laovel
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Not that it means anything but I as soon as I saw the posters choice for an icon (Snoop)I knew that I would be reading a message from someone who had a long way to go on the path. Maybe he/she is on a different road?

I find it interesting that if you follow most MA to the higher levels they start training and talking about what O'Sensai had his students (and now us) start at the begining. I'm not saying that makes Aikido better/worse, just an interesting training point. Would we do more body effective training if we concentrated on it? I think so. Would we have to take more steps on the path of the way? Yes.

Peace/Love/Tofu.

It's all the world needs.
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Old 08-25-2003, 09:47 AM   #27
bob_stra
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I just read the rest of the "I hate aikido" thread.

Now I'm in a grumpy mood.

You guys suck for bringing it to my attention.

;-)
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Old 08-25-2003, 09:50 AM   #28
Lyle Bogin
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As the saying goes, you can only change yourself -- not others...

-- Jun

Is that really true?

If, for example, I roll with one of these guys and get them to tap, and they then decide that aikido has some value, what does that mean? He has changed his opinion, as a direct result of my ability to apply theory in action.

When Rickson Gracie showed those interested in MA the value of his training methods and techniques, and thousands of people started adapting to and enjoying his family's style, what did that mean? Did he change anyone? People certainly changed their opinions and actions.

When O'Sensei brought his art to the world and gave us such a wonderful outlet/tool/whatever we consider out art to be, were we not all changed in some way?

It seems to me that people must allow themselves to change, therefore the direct cause of that change can be said to be internal. However, I don't think that diminishes the value of the external events or actions that initiated that change.

Thoughts? Am I saying anything at all, haha?
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Old 08-25-2003, 09:53 AM   #29
paw
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Quote:
Not that it means anything but I as soon as I saw the posters choice for an icon (Snoop)I knew that I would be reading a message from someone who had a long way to go on the path.
Not like you would judge them, or anything.....
Quote:
I find it interesting that if you follow most MA to the higher levels they start training and talking about what O'Sensai had his students (and now us) start at the begining.
Most MAs? Bit of an exageration there, don't you think? Recall that O Sensei talked about kami entering his body and often his students claimed they didn't fully understand what he was talking about....

IMO, the original thread was a basic "we are right, they --- aikidoists --- are wrong", and now there is a similar theme from the aikidoists --- albeit with more polite language.

It shouldn't come as a shock that there's a good population of martial arts/martial sports that find aikido, and other arts, worthless based on some criteria they hold dear. Deal with it.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 08-25-2003, 10:07 AM   #30
akiy
 
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Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote:
If, for example, I roll with one of these guys and get them to tap, and they then decide that aikido has some value, what does that mean? He has changed his opinion, as a direct result of my ability to apply theory in action.
Exactly -- he has changed his opinion...
Quote:
It seems to me that people must allow themselves to change, therefore the direct cause of that change can be said to be internal. However, I don't think that diminishes the value of the external events or actions that initiated that change.
Without one's internal motivation (conscious or subconscious) to change, one will not.

For example (going back to Internet discussions), I'm sure everyone here has seen enough "discussions" where there are people trying to change the other party's mind through "proof," "research results," "statistics," "credentials," and "attributions." People who don't care to have their minds changed will not care about such things however meaningful they may be to you. The thread in question seems to have been started by people who have no willingness to change their minds. As Paul says, some people find no value in aikido (or whatever it is that they don't care for). And so it goes.

-- Jun

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Old 08-25-2003, 10:27 AM   #31
laovel
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I wasn't hiding the fact that I was judging (<gasp><grin>) their music tastes but more from what I think of how Snoop acts and stands for (not that I would really know, just from what mass-media I see)and why would someone follow/adore/glorify (or whatever it is we do to pop-stars) that kind of person? No need to answer that anyone, I don't need to put on my flame retardant suit.

"Recall that O Sensei talked about kami entering his body and often his students claimed they didn't fully understand what he was talking about...."

Ok, me type bad. I was talking more basic, as that is my understanding of Aikido. I was speaking of things like "getting off the line" and "blending" and "using the attackers strength/intention". Not kami, I have no experience with that. The few other MA's that I've had a taste of or have spoken to someone face to face about (*not just random web posting <smirk>) seem to lead to that sort of feeling. Obviously not all of them...i'm not saying Aikido is "better" for it, i just find it interesting and think it's nicer to talk about comparisons then the sandbox mentality of "i'm better then you, because I'm wearing a star on my belly!"

Personally, I'm really liking the idea of training being misogi at this point in my life, and trying to take my training off the mat. I'm now a father of two and it's the hardest Aikido that I've ever done!

I'm not shocked by anything people say or do out there...I think that baseball and cricket players probably have the same kind of discussion between them.
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Old 08-25-2003, 10:28 AM   #32
Budd
 
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Re: I love Aikido

"Sticks and stones . . .

May break my bones . . .

Especially when swung or thrown!"

Seriously, it doesn't bother me that Aikido gets trashed on a testosterone-filled forum of angry teenagers that are prone to making snap-judgements and seek to legitimize said opinions through profanity and obstinacy. As someone earlier wrote, it's an ego thing and a game I choose not to play. I would invite any that think it's weak to come train at my dojo, but generally don't bother because I've found it to be an exercise in futility when it comes to online communications.

But are valid points made as well? I think the aikidoka (assuming the poster was being honest) that displayed such poor behavior at the judo school was not the best representative one could have hoped for. In some ways, I think aikido faces many of the same issues as tai chi. Plenty just see a system of fancy movements, whereas I see systems of practice that are ideal for self-development and interpersonal relations, while at the same time, instilling excellent martial principles.

The quality of instruction is, of course, a variable that's dependent on the training facility, teacher, etc. The opinions of folks looking to trash aikido aren't going to affect this.
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Old 08-25-2003, 10:34 AM   #33
Lyle Bogin
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"Without one's internal motivation (conscious or subconscious) to change, one will not."

And without external motivation to change, one will not, especially in this case.

These people who are so unwilling to change their minds might not be so unwilling if they got a good toss or effective pin from an aikidoist. The foundation of MMA is adaptablity and the acceptance of the validity of a martial art based on efficacy of techniques in a certain environment. If they were to be "defeated" some how by aikido techniques, their adaptation to or inclusion of those techniques would be proof that they believe aikido works. Of course, one can argue that the theory of aikido is already present in well accepted MMA components such as BJJ. And so it goes .

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 08-25-2003, 11:05 AM   #34
kensparrow
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My favorite quote from that thread was "Pain is temporary but pride is forever!" He must have meant that matter how hard we work, we will forever be doing battle with our own egos. I would never have expected to find such wisdom on a forum like that! From the mouths of babes...
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Old 08-25-2003, 11:38 AM   #35
Cyrijl
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1-The reason why aikido gets very little repsect these days is precisely because of all of your self-agrandizing posts

2-
Quote:
It's kinda hard for these guys to admit that after years of honing one's physical strength and fighting skills that it may be possible to be defeated by someone who does not break a sweat in the proces.
Well then that happens let me know

3-I don't usually read sherdog because of the juvenille posts, but i have had the same experience with aikidoka. If it were not illegal i honestly probably would have hit one or two.

4-By taking the so-called 'high road' many of you are acting just as those you would criticize.

5-Someone asked why there are no posts like that here. Well because the admins silence people like that kind of quick. That is not pro or anti admin, but it what seems to happen.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 08-25-2003, 11:45 AM   #36
akiy
 
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
5-Someone asked why there are no posts like that here. Well because the admins silence people like that kind of quick. That is not pro or anti admin, but it what seems to happen.
I do? Hm.

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Old 08-25-2003, 12:15 PM   #37
Budd
 
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
1-The reason why aikido gets very little repsect these days is precisely because of all of your self-agrandizing posts

2-

Well then that happens let me know

3-I don't usually read sherdog because of the juvenille posts, but i have had the same experience with aikidoka. If it were not illegal i honestly probably would have hit one or two.

4-By taking the so-called 'high road' many of you are acting just as those you would criticize.

5-Someone asked why there are no posts like that here. Well because the admins silence people like that kind of quick. That is not pro or anti admin, but it what seems to happen.
I didn't realize that we were all being self-aggrandizing. I thought the general theme seemed to be, "oh well, let them think what they'd like".

You sort of dance around a valid point -- namely that there are people that exhibit bad behavior regardless of style, age, rank, etc. But lumping all of us that have participated in this thread into that category seems a bit overly judgemental.

I'm somewhat new to the boards and don't have time to extensively read the archives, so I'm not sure if you're coming from the standpoint of 'I don't like aikido', which I don't agree with (but fully respect your right to feel that way), or 'Some aikido people tick me off', with which I can relate.
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Old 08-25-2003, 01:25 PM   #38
bob_stra
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
3-I don't usually read sherdog because of the juvenille posts, but i have had the same experience with aikidoka. If it were not illegal i honestly probably would have hit one or two.
Seconded on both counts.
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Old 08-25-2003, 02:27 PM   #39
Cyrijl
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1-if you get upset by me saying self-aggrandizing posts, then you must lump yourself in that category.

2-Jun akiyama. I have seen more than a cuple of times when people were 'warned,' for things which did not seem (to me) to be that bad. Also any confrontation whether, legitimate or not, seemed to be squashed rather early (not necessarily by admins, but by the majority.)

3-Budd, i replied to you over on bullshido, but will here too. Whenever there is someone who comments negatively on aikido members or the art itself, people become VERY defensive, but do not usually adress the issues. In the sherdog thread (which i skimmed because i do not liek the board or have respect ofr many posters), there were some valid points made about the training methods many aikidoka are engaged in. The problem is when one claims that aikido is so deadly, but then gets upset when one asks to demonstrate it.

You will see that consistently i have praised the techniques in aikido, but question the validity of many of the training methods in terms of effectiveness. I was even told in one dojo that aikido is not good for self defense until you have been studying for a while.

The fact that in many more trad'l dojo, quesitons on the mat are frowned upon is one example of problems faced in many dojo. There is a martial aspect and an art aspect. But tradition should be a tangent feature and not at the core of either. Trying to place japanese customs in an american (western) setting is highly asynchonistic. This seems to hinder aikido training and improvement. Bowing, the clothing, the setting are accidental to aikido not essential to the forms.

For people who get upset so easily:

If you love aikido, fine. If you can say you train in the manner you wish too (either for dance or for fighting), that is great too. No one should waste a minute of thought getting upset at what i write/wrote. It is merely my two cents (or a bit less)...

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 08-25-2003, 02:29 PM   #40
Cyrijl
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p.s. I like aikido too, the techniques and theory of body mechanics. I try to apply them in the martial arts i study now. I also enjoy most of the people on this board for their views and knowledge, experience and stories. But that does not mean that some people are not full of it.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 08-25-2003, 02:52 PM   #41
aikilouis
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All this thread reminds me of something I saw on some other forum (not MA-related) :

"Arguing on Internet message boards is like competing in the Special Olympics. Wether you win or lose doesn't matter, you're still retarded."

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Old 08-25-2003, 02:58 PM   #42
Budd
 
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
1-if you get upset by me saying self-aggrandizing posts, then you must lump yourself in that category.

2-Jun akiyama. I have seen more than a cuple of times when people were 'warned,' for things which did not seem (to me) to be that bad. Also any confrontation whether, legitimate or not, seemed to be squashed rather early (not necessarily by admins, but by the majority.)

3-Budd, i replied to you over on bullshido, but will here too. Whenever there is someone who comments negatively on aikido members or the art itself, people become VERY defensive, but do not usually adress the issues. In the sherdog thread (which i skimmed because i do not liek the board or have respect ofr many posters), there were some valid points made about the training methods many aikidoka are engaged in. The problem is when one claims that aikido is so deadly, but then gets upset when one asks to demonstrate it.

You will see that consistently i have praised the techniques in aikido, but question the validity of many of the training methods in terms of effectiveness. I was even told in one dojo that aikido is not good for self defense until you have been studying for a while.

The fact that in many more trad'l dojo, quesitons on the mat are frowned upon is one example of problems faced in many dojo. There is a martial aspect and an art aspect. But tradition should be a tangent feature and not at the core of either. Trying to place japanese customs in an american (western) setting is highly asynchonistic. This seems to hinder aikido training and improvement. Bowing, the clothing, the setting are accidental to aikido not essential to the forms.

For people who get upset so easily:

If you love aikido, fine. If you can say you train in the manner you wish too (either for dance or for fighting), that is great too. No one should waste a minute of thought getting upset at what i write/wrote. It is merely my two cents (or a bit less)...
1- Nah, I'm not upset, just wondering if you really meant to lump us all into one category.

2- Haven't really seen any confrontations on this board so I can't really comment.

3- Hey, I replied over there, also. No sweat, I don't worry about the knee-jerk reactions of others and I certainly don't think that aikido is the end-all be-all way of martial training -- or living. It does offer some great options, though, and I sure do enjoy the training.

I touch on this over on Bullshido, but I think that because aikido is still finding it's legs, developmentally speaking, there are still going to be different interpretations regarding how effective it is, how deadly it is and how deadly it should be. I enjoy the opportunity to discuss with others what it means to them. I also think O-Sensei was a pretty remarkable person, but you're not going to find me deifying him, either.

As far as whether the techniques are deadly . . heck, a frying pan is deadly. I think if you're training in the martial arts just to be deadly, you're somewhat missing the point. I also think that there are enough different ways of training in aikido (just dancing to brutal randori), that I think it's more useful to address specific weaknesses in certain methods of training, e.g. attitude, ettiquette, levels of contact and resistance, etc, than to point a finger and label a style as being XYZ (although, I'm definitely guilty of the latter, I'm working on it though ).

Best/Budd
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Old 08-25-2003, 03:07 PM   #43
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
2-Well then that happens let me know
It has happened, with me, even before my initial post was made.

Now you know.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 08-25-2003, 03:14 PM   #44
Irony
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
The fact that in many more trad'l dojo, quesitons on the mat are frowned upon is one example of problems faced in many dojo. There is a martial aspect and an art aspect. But tradition should be a tangent feature and not at the core of either. Trying to place japanese customs in an american (western) setting is highly asynchonistic. This seems to hinder aikido training and improvement. Bowing, the clothing, the setting are accidental to aikido not essential to the forms.
Somewhat off topic, but I agree with this a lot. The first dojo I attended after I moved up from Jacksonville was very traditional-minded, much more strict than what I was used to. This coupled with a slightly different style made it nearly impossible to learn anything. So I left and went to another school in the area that was a lot more friendly and a lot more easy-going. I've learned a lot more by being able to learn my own way than being stuffed into a traditionally Japanese mold.

Chris Pasley
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Old 08-25-2003, 03:42 PM   #45
Corey
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I read through the posts on the "I hate Aikido" thread. I thought it was kind of funny. Most of the comments were second-hand accounts of how aikidoka are and are not. I don't think many of them have even studied enough about aikido to make an educated opinion on the subject. I am not saying there are not shortcomings, but the shortcomings are in ourselves not the method. So who cares what any of those people think anyway? What are they doing to help you? In the end, each of us alone must answer to ourselves.

Knowing others is wisdom;
Knowing the self is enlightment.
Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.
~Lao Tzu
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Old 08-25-2003, 05:34 PM   #46
Patrick Barr
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I hate Aikido as well. It makes me think and grow as person. GOD HOW ANNOYING!! I mean, I only started 5 months ago and already my life is ruined by better posture, improved breathing habits and this stupid "more enlightened" feeling about the world around me. JEESH!
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Old 08-25-2003, 09:37 PM   #47
Erik
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Having watched a number of the UFC events I've never, not once, witnessed someone use an aikido technique from the mainstream curriculum. Nor, have I ever seen someone attack with any of the attacks we use in the way most of us regularly practice them. I doubt anyone has controlled space and distance using aikido concepts either. Most of the time grapplers close pretty much at will although with some of the rule changes the game has evolved so distance fighters have a better chance these days.

If my perception is correct, and it may not be, perhaps there's a reason that these guys look at what we do in the way they do. So maybe instead of telling everyone how spiritual our s*** is perhaps we would be better served by blending and trying to understand why MMA types think the way they do.

Last edited by Erik : 08-25-2003 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 08-25-2003, 11:39 PM   #48
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So I know I have been a bit reactionary in the past but really why worry. Truth be told I'ld rather have those sort spouting off on their own BB rather than show up on my doorstep.

It doesn't matter what MA you do, the sort of negative opinions expressed usually mean that their exposure is pretty insular. I've heard some pretty ripe opinions among Aikidoists for basically the same reason.

Common guys - let's start a I hate [insert detested MA here] thread. Oh wait - we've done that.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-26-2003, 12:06 AM   #49
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I don't understand what all the noise is about. We're all woven from the same thread and I'm sure we have more in common with those folks than we think. They chose a different way to go about their business. Their alienation of other MA's, much like here, only serves to ostracize the speaker, not the group being spoken about. Let them do what they want.

Corey indirectly brought up a good point. Can you 'feel your ki' flowing when you post or are you 'in your head' about these other practitioners? I lost my center at first when I read those posts, but getting it back makes it all feel better.

I enjoy hanging out with you people on the boards here, maybe more than I would with the other group we're referring to. Everyone here is capable of having a good spirit, and that's why I like this place.

*Phil

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Old 08-26-2003, 01:51 AM   #50
kironin
 
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Evil Eyes

Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
.

2-Jun akiyama. I have seen more than a cuple of times when people were 'warned,' for things which did not seem (to me) to be that bad. Also any confrontation whether, legitimate or not, seemed to be squashed rather early (not necessarily by admins, but by the majority.)

3-Budd, i replied to you over on bullshido, but will here too. Whenever there is someone who comments negatively on aikido members or the art itself, people become VERY defensive, but do not usually adress the issues. In the sherdog thread (which i skimmed because i do not liek the board or have respect ofr many posters), there were some valid points made about the training methods many aikidoka are engaged in. The problem is when one claims that aikido is so deadly, but then gets upset when one asks to demonstrate it.
2- It may not seem that bad until you have been on an email list of BB that gets completely out of control and taken over by trolls or other confrontational elements with entirely too much free time and drives away the more interesting posters. I personally don't think it's a bad thing to have an online community that is willing to keep enforcing a little civility. In addition I would say Jun uses a pretty light hand as an admin. Jun rock on.

3- The Sherdog thread isn't offensive. It is just a boring piece of tripe. The posters seem to be blithely ignorant that a significant number of people in aikido also have significant experience in Judo. All the points have been hashed over a thousand times on aikido lists or even in the old days on rec.martial-arts. Much more articulate versions of the criticisms can be found in published articles on this site or Aikido Journal online. Many suggestions have been described very well for supplemental training for those who feel the need. Numerous examples abound of people in different strains of aikido who deal with these concerns, etc.

It's not even a real challenge to let it roll off your back and move on.

For those who are bothered, heed Lynn's advice, do some research and reading, keep an open mind and look for opportunities to experiment and explore while training on the mat.

back to lurking,

Craig
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