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Old 07-15-2003, 09:21 AM   #1
JimAde
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
The chart is here.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi5.html

Still chuckling that a man who has yet to step on the mat is lecturing Sean on politeness. But please note that Shodokan randori is not divided into randori techniques and aiki techniques.
Warning: Ignorant questions to follow

I don't know anything about Tomiki/Shodokan competition except what I saw on the site above (but it sounds cool). In the chart Peter linked to I see "Atemi Waza" techniques. However, I don't see any protective gear in the pictures I found of competition. This seems to mean one of three things:

1) I'm looking at the wrong pictures.

2) The strikes are somehow "stopped" before really landing.

3) I DEFINITELY don't want to mess with these guys

Can someone enlighten me?

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Old 07-15-2003, 09:45 AM   #2
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I've split this post from its original thread (on aikido and competition).

-- Jun

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Old 07-15-2003, 09:48 AM   #3
Dave Miller
 
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Quote:
Jim Ade (JimAde) wrote:
Warning: Ignorant questions to follow

I don't know anything about Tomiki/Shodokan competition except what I saw on the site above (but it sounds cool). In the chart Peter linked to I see "Atemi Waza" techniques. However, I don't see any protective gear in the pictures I found of competition. This seems to mean one of three things:

1) I'm looking at the wrong pictures.

2) The strikes are somehow "stopped" before really landing.

3) I DEFINITELY don't want to mess with these guys

Can someone enlighten me?
Atemi waza simply means that you are using atemi, as opposed to a joint lock or throw, the topple uke. I don't know about Shodokan, but in the brand of Tomiki I practice, these are not "strikes" but simple off-balancing techniques. When I do Gyakugamae ate (technique #3), for example, my atemi never makes contact with uke but the feint, combined with a good balance-break, should be sufficient to topple him/her. There is, therefore, no need for protective gear.

Is that basically correct, Peter?

Last edited by Dave Miller : 07-15-2003 at 09:53 AM.

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Old 07-15-2003, 04:02 PM   #4
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I do not actually practice Shodokan, but I've read about it a lot and seen a video. So that caveat out of the way, to my understanding, the atemi waza "could be" strikes, but in practice and randori, they are converted into "pushes/balance breaks" as Dave describes above.

Just another way of describing it...

=wl

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Old 07-15-2003, 06:04 PM   #5
deepsoup
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Quote:
Jim Ade (JimAde) wrote:
Warning: Ignorant questions to follow

I don't know anything about Tomiki/Shodokan competition except what I saw on the site above (but it sounds cool). In the chart Peter linked to I see "Atemi Waza" techniques. However, I don't see any protective gear in the pictures I found of competition. This seems to mean one of three things:

1) I'm looking at the wrong pictures.

2) The strikes are somehow "stopped" before really landing.

3) I DEFINITELY don't want to mess with these guys

Can someone enlighten me?
They're strikes Jim, but not as we know them!
(Sorry, I couldn't resist, I'm a very sad man.)

Professor Tomiki saw two ways of looking at atemi waza:
1) Strikes/punches/kicks to physiological weak points.
2) Exploiting mechanical weaknesses by applying force to one point and creating balance breaking. (kuzushi)

For safety, the first kind of strike, what people from other styles usually mean when they say 'atemi' are left out of 'competitive' randori. (Like the folks from other styles, we practice those in our regular 'cooperative' kata training.)

The kata thats being demonstrated in those pictures in the "Randori no Kata", ie: those are the techniques allowed in randori, so those atemi-waza are all about that second kind of atemi. In Shodokan terminology, irimi-nage, tenchi-nage, sokumen irimi-nage, and all sorts of other stuff I dont know the Aikikai equivalent terms for, are classified as 'atemi-waza'.

Its not that the strikes are 'stopped' before they land, but there is a kind of blending going on that means they're not landing 'percussively' on uke's face. By the time the strike makes contact the arm is already straight (well, not so much straight as 'unbendable' if you see what I mean.)

After contact has been made, the power is all coming from the hips (natch), and being delivered through that 'unbendable' arm, further compromising ukes balance, and as uke is falling, tori's forearm continues to apply force to uke's chest, adding a bit of acceleration to gravity as he's going down.

Actually, the hips often make contact directly too. In Shodokan, irimi-nage and tenchi-nage are classified as forms of aigamaeate, and I know that many traditional folks get a lot of direct hip-hip contact in those, so I guess that should be no surprise.

Obviously there's no reason why the strike can't be percussive, then you get a kind of blow/throw action going on - the boundary before the first kind of atemi and the second gets a bit blurred. So in the case of shomenate, you've got a very direct strike to uke's head, and as uke begins to move you then have an 'unbendable arm' applying force from tori's hips to accelerate uke into the fall. In the case of gyakugamaeate there's no reason there couldn't be a strike to the temple, or from closer in maybe an elbow strike to the face in there. (But like I said, thats rather too dangerous for 'competitive' randori, so we stick to practicing that stuff 'cooperatively'.)

In randori good timing is essential to get that 'blending' quality to the strikes.

(And in shiai its part of he referees job to make sure the competitors dont start to 'clash', especially with more inexperienced competitors. Unfortunately even some very experienced brits on the international scene are rather prone to this, and it isn't pretty, but I'm digressing again.)

A couple of specific points:

In aigamaeate, tori is initially attempting oshi-taoshi (ikkyo). Uke resists by attempting to drop his elbow and pull his arm back into centre, and its that backward movement that tori then blends with to come in and strike.

Gedanate has a strong judo influence in there. Depending on circumstances, it can be a lot like ushiro-goshi or sukui-nage. I've also seen my local traditional dojo practice a form of aiki-nage (was that what they called it?) that was very similar.

I hope that all makes sense. There seem to be a few Shodokan yudansha* about at the moment, so hopefully someone will correct me if I've made a few mistakes in there.

As far as part [3] of your question goes, tori in those pictures is Tetsuro Nariyama, the technical director of the Shodokan and a man I definitely wouldn't want to mess with either!

Sean.
x

* - Speaking of Shodokan yudansha:
Hey, Peter - my shodan certificate finally arrived from the JAA, and I've just had my first training session wearing the snazzy new belt from Shihan. Woo-hoo!

Last edited by deepsoup : 07-15-2003 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 07-17-2003, 02:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Sean Orchard (deepsoup) wrote:
Gedanate has a strong judo influence in there. Depending on circumstances, it can be a lot like ushiro-goshi or sukui-nage. I've also seen my local traditional dojo practice a form of aiki-nage (was that what they called it?) that was very similar.
When I saw it on video it reminded me a lot of a throw in "Aikido & Dynamic Sphere" which was labeled aiki-otoshi, except that in that book's diagram, nage got more explicitly behind uke and actually scooped up uke's legs with the arms.

=wl
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Old 07-18-2003, 01:41 AM   #7
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First things first - Sean congrats. And don't let me catch you dragging that belt behind your car to give it that I've been an Aikido master for ages look.

Atemi really only means using body contact to effect an action. We can use a closed fist to a hockey style body check. It can be used to get a reaction or be the technique its self.

The Shodokan atemi waza you see are very effective in their own right. Targetting for damage is actually only a small change that actually does not effect the efficiency of the technique itself just uke's ability to get back up.

I visited an Aikido group in Athens last night, a great group interesting class, a gorgeous dojo. I showed a bit of the Shodokan style and within that I talked a bit about targetting in aigamae-ate. Sean - it involved shote to the throat. When I taught in Quebec I had my tougher he man type students actually take full throat shots. To do that their ukemi had to be really good. No I am not a psychopath but you can really appreciate the power of the technique. In this case the execusion of aigame-ate was pretty standard. The arm was "unbendable", the power came from the hips.

Right now I'm on vacation in my wife's village. http://www.ouranoupoli.com

I keep getting dragged into cafes by little old ladies in black. I would rather that be scantily clad young ladies which abound but I digress.



Peter R.

Last edited by PeterR : 07-18-2003 at 01:43 AM.

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Old 07-18-2003, 02:58 AM   #8
deepsoup
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
First things first - Sean congrats. And don't let me catch you dragging that belt behind your car to give it that I've been an Aikido master for ages look.

<snippage of much good stuff>

Right now I'm on vacation in my wife's village. http://www.ouranoupoli.com

I keep getting dragged into cafes by little old ladies in black. I would rather that be scantily clad young ladies which abound but I digress.
Thats spooky - how did you know I was thinking of doing that? lol.

Enjoy your holiday.

Sean

ps: I think its Terry Pratchett (but it could be Neil Gaiman) wrote in one of his books that little old greek ladies in black are actually the strongest creature relative to their bodyweight on Earth. They can totter up a mountainside carrying several dozen times their own weight in firewood apparently, so be careful!
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Sean - it involved shote to the throat. When I taught in Quebec I had my tougher he man type students actually take full throat shots. To do that their ukemi had to be really good. No I am not a psychopath but you can really appreciate the power of the technique. In this case the execusion of aigame-ate was pretty standard. The arm was "unbendable", the power came from the hips.

Peter R.
Hey Peter, Sean -

Peter, I was just wondering about that sho tei to the throat thing - do you mean applying sho tei to the adams apple area or to cradle the chin and jaw in one's palm to get more head control while doing the aigamae ate?

The latter is one I do very much of - also modified it into a stranglehold (by sliding the arm) or palm strike for the eager karate members at my North Bay seminars. To me, this version allows for maximum head control to apply the balance break of the technique.

Sho tei to the throat (i.e. Adam's apple area) happens more when I try to apply Shomen Ate in the same way as the above aigamae ate(with sho tei to the chin) and my hand slips a bit south. But is a very nice place to apply a choke though (Not that I would do that in randori

So I was wondering - when you say throat, do you mean base of chin? Or have you just shown me a new way of applying one of my fave techs?

Sean - Congrats on getting your certificate from Japan. Wish I got a belt from there as well like you did . I think it got lost in the mail .

Arigato Gozaimashita

L.C.

P.S. Jim - Your assumption for number 3 of your initial post is VERY correct

Last edited by L. Camejo : 07-25-2003 at 03:41 PM.

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Old 07-26-2003, 12:55 AM   #10
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Hi Larry;

Like I said the aigame-ate is pretty standard. The cradle the chin and jaw in one's palm to get more head control really is the most efficient way to do the technique. If you read the post again I was talking about targetting for damge (not that as loving caring Aikido type people we would ever do that)and the relatively small shift required.

In shomen-ate as you say travel south a little bit.

Gyakugamae-ate - rotate tegatana slightly and strike the temple with the protruding wrist bone.

Aigamae-ate - not the adam's apple but the area under the jaw and slightly to the side. As you say - south. I find that to do this I had not only to rotate the tegatana slightly but bring my elbow a bit more to centre.

The efficiency of these techniques rely on body control and with good timing the hard strikes don't really offer any increase and may be detrimental to the application. But there are times.....

You mentioned shime-waza - I'm having a lot of personal fun exploring transitions to those from various kihon waza.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-28-2003, 05:11 AM   #11
deepsoup
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Quote:
Larry Camejo (L. Camejo) wrote:
Sean - Congrats on getting your certificate from Japan. Wish I got a belt from there as well like you did . I think it got lost in the mail .
Ouch - that sucks.

Your certificate certainly took a roundabout route to get to you - I was training in Brighton on the day that batch of certificates were presented, and yours was presented to Jerome on your behalf. Quite a detour on the way from Osaka to Trinidad.

Re: Shime waza.

Besides the obvious connection between ushiro-ate and hadaka-jime, thats not something I've ever thought about. It sounds like you're both exploring some very interesting stuff there, out on the aikido/judo frontier!

Sean

x
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Old 08-14-2003, 10:47 AM   #12
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When I trained with Nariyama-shihan last week at the World Championship he commented on all atemi waza. I think that it was Sakai-sensei doing the translation and I am not sure how accurate it was. It was during one of his three seminars he gave.

He said that the hand needs to be placed WITHOUT hitting uke. If you are not capable of doing all atemi techniques with a soft placement of the hand, then you are not worthy of doing randori. I am not sure how strong those words were as my Japanese is not good enough to understand him but that was the gist of it.

So, yes they look really hard but they are not if done properly. It's all kuzushi, or it should be all kuzushi.

BTW, Peter were you there?

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Old 08-14-2003, 06:48 PM   #13
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No Yann - I was actually on a beach in Greece. The only Aikido I did was a visit to a dojo in Athens and Thessaloniki. One of these days I should go to one of the big gatherings - the closest I came was one in America.

Nariyama Shihan is of course correct (he always is). In randori the hand needs to be placed WITHOUT hitting uke. If you are not capable of doing all atemi techniques with a soft placement of the hand, then you are not worthy of doing randori..

The context is randori - what I and others are refering to above is application in a different context.

There are some players, especially from your neck of the woods, that have a reputation for not understanding the difference between the two situations. The perception may be right or wrong but I think Nariyama was addressing it and probaby quite strongly.

I have seen visitors to Honbu give black eyes even during non-shiai randori. Everyone laughs and calls it an accident (accidents do happen) but it seems these accidents are more common with some people than others. There should be no injuries in randori.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-14-2003, 07:56 PM   #14
L. Camejo
 
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Freaky!

Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
the hand needs to be placed WITHOUT hitting uke. If you are not capable of doing all atemi techniques with a soft placement of the hand, then you are not worthy of doing randori..
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

Ever connect percussively with an elbow during gedan ate???? Ouch!Talk about game over.

I do believe though, that when teaching the range of possible applications of atemi waza (outside randori) the student should be made aware of the percussive, grappling and other possible applications that may extend naturally from basic atemi waza.

Exercises like Hontai no tsukuri can develop one's sense of distance while closing at speed - which is a basic way of training effective but non-percussive atemi waza for randori and other applications. I think this basic method is very effective for teaching the correct entry for the atemi waza, which will determine the quality of the technique to follow to some extent.

My students have often found that entering with the hand sweeping up the centreline (as in shomen ate, aigamae ate and the like) sets up one's posture quite nicely for applying a powerful, but non-percussive atemi waza, powered by body movement. On the flip side, when one attempts to extend the arm straight out from a bent elbow while entering, the possibility of percussive convergence is greatly increased and much control may be lost as upper body strength tends to become more of a factor.

Just some rambling after some hard training tonite. Non-percussive atemi waza became the balance breaking tech of choice in applying tenkai kotehineri against a variety of aggressive tanto attacks with follow up strikes in the event of poor kuzushi.

Hope you all can forgive the rambling.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 08-14-2003 at 08:01 PM.

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Old 08-15-2003, 10:49 AM   #15
deepsoup
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Nariyama Shihan is of course correct (he always is). In randori the hand needs to be placed WITHOUT hitting uke. If you are not capable of doing all atemi techniques with a soft placement of the hand, then you are not worthy of doing randori..
Thats exactly what Shihan was saying.
Quote:
There are some players, especially from your neck of the woods, that have a reputation for not understanding the difference between the two situations. The perception may be right or wrong but I think Nariyama was addressing it and probaby quite strongly.
Indeed there are. I'm afraid some of the shiai on display was extremely ugly and the culprits were, pretty much without exception, British.

(There was some startlingly poor refereeing too, but I'll not go into that here.)

The majority of those players weren't on the mat for the seminars anyway. In the seminar Yann is referring to, Shihan got a laugh from the Japanese speakers by commenting that there were many people absent who would benefit from the lesson and asking the rest of us to pass the information on to them.

I gather some of Shihan's comments were a bit stronger than came across in translation. Whether that's down to Sakai sensei's english not being entirely fluent, or down to his being somewhat tactful in the translation, I wouldn't like to say. Probably a bit of both.

On the up-side, there were also some fine performances on display, and Shihan's seminars were (no surprise here) outstanding.

Sean

x
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Old 08-17-2003, 03:38 AM   #16
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Hi Sean;

I'm getting some interesting comments on this end - but the forums are really not the best place to discuss these things.

I'll only say that when shiai is good its gorgeous.

Personally I'm a little pissed off having heard that there was a rumour about me making its rounds during the event. I don't mind being talked about (its the price of putting your name our there) but games are being played and the story is false.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-18-2003, 05:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
I'm getting some interesting comments on this end - but the forums are really not the best place to discuss these things.
I'm sure you are! But you're absolutely right.
Quote:
I'll only say that when shiai is good its gorgeous.
I quite agree. It wasn't all gnarly, there was some gorgeous shiai on display too.
Quote:
Personally I'm a little pissed off having heard that there was a rumour about me making its rounds during the event. I don't mind being talked about (its the price of putting your name our there) but games are being played and the story is false.
Sorry to hear that. Whatever it was, it didn't reach my ears.

Sean

x
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Old 08-18-2003, 10:15 AM   #18
Martin L
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Nope, didn't reach me either, so whatever it was hopefully its not too bad.

I believe they're editing a video of the competition (and hopefully shihans seminars), so you'll get to see some of the quality randori, and hopefully not too much of the dross. Unfortunately the finals were as expected, with no real technique on display. Tai sabaki shido all the way! There was at least one cracking pairing in the team event, with scoring techniques on both sides.

No idea when this video will see the light of day though, or how to get hold of it when it does

The international relations award has to go to Sean though, for donating a crate of beer to some of the Japanese students after a mix up over the eating arrangements! Hope you weren't trying to nobble them before the competition
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Old 08-18-2003, 07:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
Martin Livingston (Martin L) wrote:
The international relations award has to go to Sean though, for donating a crate of beer to some of the Japanese students after a mix up over the eating arrangements! Hope you weren't trying to nobble them before the competition
LOL I heard about the food.

I heard from a couple of sources that a story was going round that Nariyama Shihan was unhappy big time with the way the Himeji dojo was going (Peter trying to be big teacher and all that). I never had any indication of that from him but just in case I went to him last Sunday. It was all smiles and compliments. He has never asked me to change anything - but if he did it would be done right away.

I do know that only a handful from Honbu is directly involved in the dojo and the only two that were in England were Nariyama and his deshi. I don't think either was the source. I think someone wants to believe/show they know more than they do.

It may seem like a trivial thing to get upset about but the suggestion is completely contrary to what the Himeji group is all about. In effect it is Nariyama's dojo and my role there is his assistant.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-18-2003, 10:40 PM   #20
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By the way Martin - welcome to Aikiweb.

Between you and Yann that's a huge increase in the number of Shodokan people here.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:26 AM   #21
Martin L
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I've actually been registered for ages, but I've been a bit of a lurker!

That said, I've followed what yourself, Sean and Larry have been saying with interest, and when I saw that Yann had joined (I used to train with him when I lived in York) I thought I should do my bit to stand with the rest of the shodokan ranks against the tide of competition haters!

And I'll try not to finish every sentence with an exclamation mark!

Damn.



By the way, I've seen photos of your dojo on your website. Too nice for words.
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:46 AM   #22
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You know, I haven't seen anything of competion haters either here or on the aikido-l... </famouse last worlds>

I've even started to train with the BAF (associated with the Aikikai) and in all the classes I went to, everyone was very freindly. They're full of questions about how different Shodokan is but no one has told me it's not Aikido.

So, if anyone knows where I can get hold of Nariyama's seminar video/dvd/clips/whatever please let me know.

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
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Old 08-19-2003, 09:54 AM   #23
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Go to:

http://www.wakefield-aikido.co.uk/

and click on the multimedia link.

Chuck Clark
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Old 08-19-2003, 07:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
You know, I haven't seen anything of competion haters either here or on the aikido-l... </famouse last worlds>
Its changed a lot over the years - preAikiweb I was mainly on Aikido-L and saw myself (complete with cape blowing in studio generated wind) defending Tomiki and his style from the hordes.

Occaisionally you get someone new trying to express themselves but it is quite gratifying that many people from other styles of Aikido (some while quite strongly disagreeing with the idea of competition) are pretty quick to nip the excess in the bud.

I think a lot of it has to do with a growing understanding of the role of randori and by extention shiai within the Shodokan system. The are some execllent articles on Tomiki and the Shodokan dojo on the Aikido Journal website not to mention the various Tomiki web sites which include several translations. It helps of course that Kenji Tomiki (Professor of one of the most prestigeous universities in Japan) was so eloquent in his writings.

Agreeing with what someone indicated in private correspondence with me this morning - I wish my Japanese could handle some of his untranslated writing. Even my Japanese students have trouble with Budo Ron so I don't feel too bad.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-19-2003, 07:36 PM   #25
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Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
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Quote:
Yann Golanski wrote:
I've even started to train with the BAF (associated with the Aikikai) and in all the classes I went to, everyone was very freindly. They're full of questions about how different Shodokan is but no one has told me it's not Aikido.
I train mainly with Aikikai groups when I travel. My chance to step out of the box so although I mention my background I am happy to just take the class. People are always very polite and welcoming - sometimes interested in Shodokan sometimes not.

It's usually the case face to face.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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