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Old 08-27-2003, 07:45 PM   #1
Adrian J Smith
Dojo: Bushinkan (Shodokan-Aikido)
Location: Wellington NZ
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Shodokan Aikido & Judo

Hi All,

Emerging from deep lurk mode here - I currently train in Shodokan Aikido and Judo (1K in both) and find this to be mutually beneficial.
I notice there are few other Shodokan people floating around, wondering if anyone else is cross training and what there experience has been>

Cheers

Adrian
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Old 08-27-2003, 08:26 PM   #2
PeterR
 
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Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
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Hi Adrian;

As you know Kenji Tomiki considered both to be the same but I do think its important that, like he did, when you train Judo train Judo and when you train Aikido train Aikido.

Randori, which is the hallmark of both systems, is designed to improve your Judo/Aikido so basically if you slip into Judo waza while doing Aikido your Aikido training will suffer and the converse is also true. There are some common techniques of course.

That said - there are situations where what is practiced in a Judo dojo has an advantage and others where Aikido dominates. A well-rounded individual will have experience with both.

My randori in Shodokan Aikido is weak therefore I needed to do more of it. This was difficult since a good Shodokan dojo is so far away and therefore I took up Judo.

Purists (Hi Chuck) will shake their heads but basically I took Dan grade in Judo after 4 months. I don't know waza worth a damm (trying to make up for that) but the Dojo shihan recognized the qualities that I had already obtained. Promotion was by Shiai and basically he fed me to a huge (outweighed me by 35 kg) police cadet. The Shihan was the original trainer of the current Junior High School Judo champion by the way.

Anyhow.

Tetsuro Nariyama (Shodokan Honbu Shihan) knows about the Judo and approves. He thinks its a good idea. I am not sure of his Judo ranking but apparently in High School he was considered one of the best in the country - then he met Tomiki. He may be 5th Dan (not sure).

I have less fear doing Judo randori than Shodokan. This is strange since I thought it would be the opposite.

My Shodokan randori is definately better.

My knee hurts.

Last edited by PeterR : 08-27-2003 at 08:36 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-27-2003, 09:21 PM   #3
L. Camejo
 
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Adrian, allow me to welcome another Shodokan brother from the depths of lurkdom.

I do a bit of Judo and some BJJ as well(wish I could do more). The Shodokan Aikido I do and those 2 styles seem to have many complementary and supplementary elements.

Judo Nage waza tends to help me to understand the effects of kuzushi and body mechanics from a different perspective, which aids my Aikido. The Ne Waza gives me a unique opportunity to floor grapple while still applying aiki principles (and techs. whenever I can get away with it).

On the reverse side, I have found that my Aikido training allows me to apply Nage waza in Judo at some very interesting body angles without having to enter into a sacrifice technique. I also get into the habit of setting up and applying techs. as soon as contact is being made, rather than try to "fight" it out with Judoka who are technically superior to me (in Judo) on any day of the week.

As a result, I've yet to meet a Judoka (so far) to take me when I apply a combination of Judo and Aikido knowledge, but keeping to Aiki tactics and techniques instead of Judo tactics. I simply don't ever give em the chance to get me in friendly randori matches of course. Though there is always a first time - I consistently get my butt handed to me in ne waza .
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
My randori in Shodokan Aikido is weak therefore I needed to do more of it. This was difficult since a good Shodokan dojo is so far away and therefore I took up Judo.
Interesting coincidence Peter. Before my instructor won medals in the U.K. and Japan in the shiai segment of a couple tournaments(1997-98 I think), he had trained extensively in Judo here to improve his randori, kuzushi skills, fitness and other things. Was planning the same thing myself had I been able to afford to get to the UK for the Internationals this year.
Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
I have less fear doing Judo randori than Shodokan. This is strange since I thought it would be the opposite.

My Shodokan randori is definately better.

My knee hurts.
I tend to get cautious in Judo randori - I become very aware of my shins and knees (and their vulnerability) during pure Judo randori. The guys I train with really nail you with their heels for any sort of reaping and similar techs. Personally I love the distance I get to operate at in Shodokan randori . Welcome to my world - muahahahahhahaha

Just my 2 cents.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 08-27-2003 at 09:27 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 08-27-2003, 09:35 PM   #4
PeterR
 
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Hi Larry;

I'm talking about fear of injury. I had a horrendous sprain with Shodokan so it may be experience talking. Maybe I'm also more comfortable holding onto something.

My Shodokan randori is definately better should read the Judo has helped improve my Shodokan Aikido.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:44 AM   #5
L. Camejo
 
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Hi Larry;

I'm talking about fear of injury. I had a horrendous sprain with Shodokan so it may be experience talking.
I hear that. On that note, my Shodokan randori experiences have been much more painful than my Judo ones.

Remember getting both my wrists badly sprained within a week of each other - tanto randori tenkai kotehineri. Of course, after that it was very difficult to get off that particular tech on me. Always a learning experience

Lol - I don't think I ever heard myself snap crackle and pop that many times since.

And do you think I stopped training? Hell no - such is the nature of the addiction I guess

Of course I did also have the interesting experience of being choked out in Judo as well . You know you really do see those little spots and stars before you go out :P. I guess the cartoons were right.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:32 PM   #6
PeterR
 
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I'm kinda wishing Adrian was expand a bit on his feelings, experiences. Taken togeather (Judo + Aikido) his experience has more depth than me.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-28-2003, 09:51 PM   #7
Adrian J Smith
Dojo: Bushinkan (Shodokan-Aikido)
Location: Wellington NZ
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hi guys - cool to see others doing similar stuff - sorry for the delay in getting back - that b*^%%y work thing keeps interfering with my web browsing!!

Quick query: have I met either of you two in real life? : I was one half of the NZ team at the Osaka festival in 2001.

back to the topic at hand: where to start? brief overview ( bear in mind I've been doing a lot more Judo than Aikido in the last six months or so) - i find Aikido helps setting up and executing kansetsu waza(particulary on the ground) in ways most Judoka find unusual - mind you most judoka are tough to armlock standing.

Also aiki movement/taisabaki definately help my nage waza - the guys at mey judo dojo find the way move a little unusual. In judo randori i'm very much a counter fighter -catching the others energy and using it as well as keeping my centre - all things steming from aikido.

in terms of fitness and dynamic flow judo really helps my Aikido. i find the average judo session much more demanding physically and the sheer amount of randori/shiai (judo)leads to no-mind chains of techniques.

Re: injuries, i have had far more in Judo than Aikido (broken collar bone, KO'ed etc) but I find Aikido techniques more taxing on the body -if that makes sense.

Anyway better go do some work - sorry I've been a bit scattered with my thought. I'll try and post a bit more coherently later on.

Cheers

Adrian
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Old 08-28-2003, 10:56 PM   #8
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Adrian Smith (Adrian J Smith) wrote:
hi guys - cool to see others doing similar stuff - sorry for the delay in getting back - that b*^%%y work thing keeps interfering with my web browsing!!
Same same - there has got to be something we can do about that.
Quote:
Quick query: have I met either of you two in real life? : I was one half of the NZ team at the Osaka festival in 2001.
I didn't attend the event.
Quote:
i find Aikido helps setting up and executing kansetsu waza(particulary on the ground) in ways most Judoka find unusual - mind you most judoka are tough to armlock standing.
No kidding about the standing arm locks. People don't believe me when I tell them that in Judo I'm strongest on the ground and that I believe the strength came from Aikido.
Quote:
In judo randori i'm very much a counter fighter -catching the others energy and using it as well as keeping my centre - all things steming from aikido.
I hear you here too. My Judo people tell me my attacking needs to improve. Maybe that's really why I'm better on the ground.
Quote:
in terms of fitness and dynamic flow judo really helps my Aikido. i find the average judo session much more demanding physically and the sheer amount of randori/shiai (judo)leads to no-mind chains of techniques.
Judo I feel has a very different muscle requirement to it. In Aikido I sweat but I'm not exhausted to nearly the same extent as I am with Judo. With Aikido my legs may feel like rubber and I am glad the sessions over but you wont get me lying on the mat gasping for breath like I was last night with Judo. I feel I am getting all the benefits of weight lifting without the boredom.

Yeah I know you are not supposed to use muscle in Judo either but try dancing around like a butterfly with the big boys.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-29-2003, 07:31 PM   #9
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Adrian Smith (Adrian J Smith) wrote:
Quick query: have I met either of you two in real life? : I was one half of the NZ team at the Osaka festival in 2001.
Did not attend that one either. This side of the world is so Aiki-dead
Quote:
Also aiki movement/taisabaki definately help my nage waza - the guys at mey judo dojo find the way move a little unusual. In judo randori i'm very much a counter fighter -catching the others energy and using it as well as keeping my centre - all things steming from aikido.
Same here, I tend to play dead a lot and then use the other guy's force to apply my nage waza as well. As far the keeping of the centre part, it's how I often don't end up in sacrifice techs.

Quote:
in terms of fitness and dynamic flow judo really helps my Aikido. i find the average judo session much more demanding physically and the sheer amount of randori/shiai (judo)leads to no-mind chains of techniques.
Totally agree to that one... may leave Aikido panting on most occasions, but I have to literally drag myself off the Judo mat Lots of anaerobic activity in that newaza.
Quote:
Re: injuries, i have had far more in Judo than Aikido (broken collar bone, KO'ed etc) but I find Aikido techniques more taxing on the body -if that makes sense.
Been ko'ed already in Judo, also lots more shin bruises from that reaping action. Must admit though, I think being choked out and doing strangles in Judo have helped me understand exactly how to apply pressure in strangleholds utilising atemi waza (like aigamae ate/gyakugamae ate) in Aikido.

On another note, I find it very interesting the way kuzushi works from the Judo standing range and then from the Aikido (issoku itto)range. I often find myself applying kuzushi Aikido style (as soon as the grasp begins to close)to set up for my Judo techs. Is that weird? It catches my Judo pals a lot.

Hardest thing though is to fight the urge to drop em with the obvioius kotegaeshi/kotemawashi .

Speaking of which, I think I need to get back on the Judo wagon.... been away for a bit.

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 08-29-2003 at 07:35 PM.

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