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Old 08-20-2003, 03:30 PM   #1
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
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False sense?

I have a question to the group that I have been pondering for awhile and I would like to hear some feedback from the rest. My question is….can too much cooperation give us a false sense of doing a technique correctly?. Reason I say this is that I am seeing more and more ukes, tanking for nage before the technique is applied. We all have a sense of what will happen (depending on practice experience, etc), but are some aikidoka anticipating too much? Has anyone else experienced this before?

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 08-20-2003, 03:36 PM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
Has anyone else experienced this before?
Yeah, every time my shite makes me nervous!

Seriously! I tank for a bit when I work with someone new that I'm nervous about, till I settle down and get comfortable with what they are going to do. I tend to tank a bit for *really* big muscular guys who throw without taking my balance first (rather than going splat when they throw me anyway).

The really serious training begins when I know someone and trust them enough *not* to tank...with some that's as soon as I step on the mat...with others that's never.

RT

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-20-2003, 04:42 PM   #3
SeiserL
 
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Yep, IMHO, I have seen (and probably done) some too early tanking. Especially with beginners so that they can get the feel of the technqiue. Later I will comply due to correct execution rather than cooperate. With others, I am not tanking, but they have my balance and I can be a bit top heavy. There is a fine line between giving them the technique so they can learn and giving them the technqiue so they can't.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-20-2003, 05:38 PM   #4
Fausto
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A week ago I went to meet other aikido practitioners, we did Shomen Uchi Irimi Nage and all of them did Ukemi before I touch them, I didn't like that cuz they were anticipating the throw. I didn't had to touch them for they to fall..... bad thing bad thing, I think.
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Old 08-20-2003, 06:52 PM   #5
shihonage
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The answers to all these questions are within this very site, written by one of it's members.

http://www.aikiweb.com/training/ledyard3.html
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Old 08-20-2003, 09:06 PM   #6
sanosuke
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Quote:
My question is….can too much cooperation give us a false sense of doing a technique correctly?
yes, pretty much, too much cooperation won't bring any benefitfor both uke and nage b'cos nage couldn't learn the correct technique and the feeling and uke can't learn to follow the flow and the timing for uke to do ukemi.
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Old 08-20-2003, 10:28 PM   #7
Nacho_mx
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Yes it happens, and when it does, when I sense my uke is about to take a dive, I suddenly stop in the middle of the technique, uke of course falls awkwardly and looks kinda silly Then I make them repeat, this time telling them "try to sense the technique (speed, direction, intensity), not anticipate it". The uke/nage dynamic only works if both are sincere and practice to the best of their abilities, regardless of rank or experience. Of course, it takes a while (and a few bumps) to develop the trust and confidence needed for hard/intense/honest practice.
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Old 08-21-2003, 02:08 AM   #8
Chris Raeger
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Cooperation is about the relationship you form with a training partner and how well you communicate and share your respective experience of Aikido. You will do better with some people than others and better some nights than others. The goal is to continually strive for improvement. If you can clearly relate to your training partner what you need form them and vice versa, things will improve for both of you. Then the question of people tanking on you will be deminsihed or go away all together. Your expressed confidence in them and their abilities and the same coming back at you should be aimed for at every training time. Aikido is a shared experience, that should also be a positive experience for all concerned.
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Old 08-21-2003, 05:57 AM   #9
PeterPhilippson
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Quote:
Fausto Marta (Fausto) wrote:
A week ago I went to meet other aikido practitioners, we did Shomen Uchi Irimi Nage and all of them did Ukemi before I touch them, I didn't like that cuz they were anticipating the throw. I didn't had to touch them for they to fall..... bad thing bad thing, I think.
There is a problem. I know that sometimes people fall before I have thrown them, and sometimes I do it, usually if I am worried about getting hurt.

But there is another distinction. If we are doing say tenchinage at high level, we can go two ways. In one, uke doesn't fall until touched. In this style, nage has to hold back to avoid breaking uke's neck. In another style, we go through and uke has to fall before being touched. The danger is when wires get crossed which style is being used!

Best wishes,

Peter
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Old 08-21-2003, 09:04 AM   #10
Fausto
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Peter you are right but the problem has that we weren't doing the technique at a high level speed it was a middle way between Kihon and Ki No Nagare.
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Old 08-21-2003, 12:34 PM   #11
Eric Joyce
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Another thing I noticed was that kuzushi was applied incorrectly. A lot of the techniques that I saw, ukes balance was given back to them in the execution of the technique. Now, was this done so that uke could take ukemi properly...perhaps. The impression I was left was that...in nages mind...that's how the technique works. If actually applied in a quote "real situation"...would it work. Maybe...maybe not, but it did make me think to myself and ask the question "Is too much cooperation a bad thing".

Have any of you actually thought about a technique and analyzed it (with a training partner, another dojo, or a practitionor of another art) to see why it did work? Or, why it didn't work? I would be interested to hear what others have experienced.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 08-21-2003, 12:58 PM   #12
jxa127
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Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote:
Another thing I noticed was that kuzushi was applied incorrectly. A lot of the techniques that I saw, ukes balance was given back to them in the execution of the technique.
That's a common problem. I do it myself more often than I should, but continuously taking your attacker's balance is both a keystone of effective technique, and hard to learn.
Quote:
Have any of you actually thought about a technique and analyzed it (with a training partner, another dojo, or a practitioner of another art) to see why it did work? Or, why it didn't work? I would be interested to hear what others have experienced.
Yes, that's how we train all the time. Except when working with very new students, we are trained to notice and point out weaknesses in nage's technique. This is not the same as actively resisting the technique. Rather, we attack continuously until we are thrown. We are constantly alert for things like when our center is given back to us.

Normally is something goes awry with the technique, we stop and work with nage to figure out what adjustments need to be made. As nage, we don't try to muscle through techniques. It's much better to learn where a slight adjustment needs to be applied than to learn how to muscle through incorrect technique.

I don't think one should have to go outside one's own dojo for this kind of training. Of course, it's always nice to work with people from outside your dojo, I'm not putting that down. It just seems to me that if your day-to-day training doesn't address your concerns about people tanking on you, then the rare (for me anyway) occasion to work with other people certainly is too little and too late to help in a big way.

Regards,

-Drew

Last edited by jxa127 : 08-21-2003 at 01:02 PM.

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Old 08-21-2003, 01:12 PM   #13
Eric Joyce
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Quote:
Chris Raeger wrote:
Cooperation is about the relationship you form with a training partner and how well you communicate and share your respective experience of Aikido. You will do better with some people than others and better some nights than others. The goal is to continually strive for improvement. If you can clearly relate to your training partner what you need form them and vice versa, things will improve for both of you. Then the question of people tanking on you will be deminsihed or go away all together. Your expressed confidence in them and their abilities and the same coming back at you should be aimed for at every training time. Aikido is a shared experience, that should also be a positive experience for all concerned.
Hey Chris,

I agree with you to a point, but when was the last time you had to "clearly relate" to some guy attacking you? My concern and my point is that I, and for the rest of my fellow aikidoka, don't want them to have a false sense of something working. I do respect your opinion and I thank you for your comment.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 08-21-2003, 11:34 PM   #14
Chris Raeger
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Ok, I agree that people are over cooperative at times in training, which can be frustrating. Your technique feels empty and weak and you can be left wondering what just happened, if anything. Your awareness of what works and what you are doing wrong gets messed up. In the Dojo we have a unique opportunity to 'set-up' a technique, as it were, before we attempt it. By creating this model to work to, with the help of or training partner, we can interperate the results and ajust what we are doing as we go along. If people get straight down to physical stuff then you can still relate to the other person. Physically, in a reasonable way, give them an example of what you what you want from them. Cooperation works, but needs to be learnt just as do the techniques.

The Dojo is like the stage in acting. It is a different reality the attempts to mirror the real world equivalent. It is a preperation place rather than the actual place. Take risks, overcome weaknesses, and become prepared for whatever challenges await you.

A false sense of something working can only grow if it is given nourishment. Starve it and it will die. Nourish what works!

Hi Eric, have I earned the right to face your blade yet?
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Old 08-22-2003, 10:30 AM   #15
Eric Joyce
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Quote:
Chris Raeger wrote:
A false sense of something working can only grow if it is given nourishment. Starve it and it will die. Nourish what works!

Hi Eric, have I earned the right to face your blade yet?
I concur with you Chris and thanks.

P.S. No..you haven't earned it yet.

Eric Joyce
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Old 08-22-2003, 02:09 PM   #16
paw
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Quote:
A false sense of something working can only grow if it is given nourishment.
What would such an environment look like?
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Old 08-22-2003, 02:56 PM   #17
Eric Joyce
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Quote:
paul watt (paw) wrote:
What would such an environment look like?
The environment, IMHO, would be an environment where nothing is said, nothing is scrutinized and the status quo remains. When I started aikido, I was in that environment (this was a big school in Chicago), everyone was just falling, rolling, ukemi, tanking, whatever you want to call it. This was not only mudansha, but yudansha as well. Now I am not picking on the school....far from it. But, it was frustrating to see. People didn't question things or talk about why this works and why that doesn't. I understand what people mean by cooperation and so forth. Too many people have been telling me the reason why it didn't work was that was a lack of cooperation and harmony. When I hear that, that tells me there is too much dependence on cooperation. I just don't want to see or hear that lack of cooperation becomes an excuse for bad aikido techniques.

Eric Joyce
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Old 08-22-2003, 03:12 PM   #18
Alec Corper
 
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Hi Eric,

Maybe a different take on the issue of co-operation. Use kuzushi in such a way that uke co-operates whether they want to or not. This seems to me to be one of the essential arts of Aiki to blend with the attack and then lead it in such a way that ukes attempt to regain balance and centre lead inevitably to the waza. To my mind this addresses the two current threads: "resistant ukes" and "false sense", since they are two sides of the same equation of non-understanding of the martial practise of Aikido. This is an intersting study.

regards, Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 08-22-2003, 03:29 PM   #19
Eric Joyce
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[quote="Alec Corper"]Hi Eric,

Maybe a different take on the issue of co-operation. Use kuzushi in such a way that uke co-operates whether they want to or not. This seems to me to be one of the essential arts of Aiki to blend with the attack and then lead it in such a way that ukes attempt to regain balance and centre lead inevitably to the waza.

I like that take. My sensei and I talked about that a lot. What's cool about kuzushi is, it's not a big movement. It is that little movement that allows you that "fraction of a second moment" to apply the technique. Uke may move, or may not move. But in order for it to work, you make him move i.e., kuzushi. I agree whole heartedly on that. A major component of aiki techniques that I don't see to often. Maybe, and this is just a theory, that sometimes we get so excited and focus on cooperating to much, that we forget a very important element in executing a technique. As always Alec, I appreciate your insight.

Eric Joyce
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Old 08-22-2003, 04:17 PM   #20
Alfonso
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on the other hand, uke needs to practice ukemi too.

hopefully you can strike a balance.

as uke you can learn by resistance training; it helps nage more IMO but it also helps to understand why uke moves

as uke you also need to learn to ride the technique to a safe conclusion, and training for this can err on the side of tanking.

in my mind training can be like finding the balance point on a stick, you approach from either side but the sweet spot is precisely in the balance point,

in any case I think much frustration can be avoided by communicating with uke about what you want.

Last edited by Alfonso : 08-22-2003 at 04:29 PM.

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Old 08-25-2003, 10:40 AM   #21
bob_stra
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Re: False sense?

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote:
I have a question to the group that I have been pondering for awhile and I would like to hear some feedback from the rest. My question is….can too much cooperation give us a false sense of doing a technique correctly?
Yes. No. Maybe.

According to motor skills theory, motor learning occurs in 3 stages - cognative, associative and automatic.

I think, with sufficient awareness, aikido style training is superb when in the cognative stage.

However, the technique needs to be drilled with the similar mechanics as the real thing (speed, timing, force output) beyond that for it to gel, IIRC.

I think Jane or Oper can fill the rest re: General Motor Programs, geometrodynamic learning etc. I can't be arsed at the moment, though it love this jazz. ;-)

*sigh*

Though I suppose I can make the effort to copy / paste this link

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/mastable.htm

It's all good, just keep a dictionary on hand ;-)
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Old 08-25-2003, 10:41 AM   #22
bob_stra
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Re: False sense?

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote:
I have a question to the group that I have been pondering for awhile and I would like to hear some feedback from the rest. My question is….can too much cooperation give us a false sense of doing a technique correctly?
Yes. No. Maybe.

According to motor skills theory, motor learning occurs in 3 stages - cognative, associative and automatic.

I think, with sufficient awareness, aikido style training is superb when in the cognative stage.

However, the technique needs to be drilled with the similar mechanics as the real thing (speed, timing, force output) beyond that for it to gel, IIRC.

I think Jane or Oper can fill the rest re: General Motor Programs, geometrodynamic learning etc. I can't be arsed at the moment, though I love this jazz. ;-)

*sigh*

Suppose I can make the effort to copy / paste this link

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/mastable.htm

It's all good, just keep a dictionary on hand ;-)
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Old 08-25-2003, 05:22 PM   #23
Corey
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First, I just want to say I love reading everyone's opinions on each of these topics. About the false sense of doing techniques correctly thing, it took me two gradings to understand what that is all about. We have a 5 kyu system. After I got 5th kyu, suddenly I found that none of my techniques worked anymore lol. Same thing happened after my 4th kyu test. I was like, "Do I know nothing? Have I learned nothing?" (I am now at 2nd kyu and finally got the point a while ago.) But the thing is with each grading the uke in my dojo begin to apply more and more resistance in order to help each other reach a higher level of understanding and ability. I don't know if they do this in other dojo. I would imagine they do.

Also in the last couple of months, I have started seeing good ukemi as being just as important as being nage. Imagine facing a fight and treating it the way you do when you are uke. A good uke knows how to take a technique without getting hurt. Uke learns how to take a defensive attack and nage learns how to deal with an offensive attack. But when you think about it, what's really the difference? Both are ways to keep yourself from getting hurt.

Knowing others is wisdom;
Knowing the self is enlightment.
Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.
~Lao Tzu
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Old 08-25-2003, 05:47 PM   #24
L. Camejo
 
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It's very difficult for a technique to work under resistance (extreme or minimal)without some sort of kuzushi (whether physical or mental). In the case of Tenchi Nage I think 90% of that tech is timing and kuzushi. The rest is simply follow through because uke has no defence with no balance.

On the side of uke, he/she must learn to develop the sensitivity, flexibility and body control to react to the technique in the best and safest way possible, without succumbing to the need to "take a dive." This helps both parties understand how the technique affect body mechanics and exactly what twists, turns etc. make techniques effective.

On the reverse side, trying to predict the movement of techniques can be simply dangerous, as tori may switch without warning in the middle of a technique, expecially during resistance or spirited randori. Often I find myself aborting/disarming techniques to avoid damaging ukes who act in this way. Which of course lessens the utility of the practice to those involved.

Just my 5 cents.

Arigato Gozaimashita

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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