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Old 07-20-2003, 12:14 AM   #26
Qatana
 
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don't knock it till you've tried it.

Q
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Old 07-20-2003, 12:30 PM   #27
Nacho
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
don't knock it till you've tried it.
what do you mean? I think you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you. I'm from Buenos Aires so I've surely tried it
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Old 07-20-2003, 06:40 PM   #28
Erik
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Ignacio Weinberg (Nacho) wrote:
what do you mean? I think you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you. I'm from Buenos Aires so I've surely tried it
I think she meant that once you've been to Petaluma you never go back.

Still trying to see if I can get Jo to grind her teeth into oblivion.

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Old 07-20-2003, 10:47 PM   #29
Qatana
 
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c'mon Erik i'll take you on the cultural tour of Petaluma. if i can find it!

no, Ignacio, i did not realise you are Argentinian. I do know that when i go to a milonga i like to dance with the old street dancers...

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-21-2003, 12:43 AM   #30
Erik
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
c'mon Erik i'll take you on the cultural tour of Petaluma. if i can find it!
The culture or Petaluma?

Badabing!

Doesn't your school have pillars in the middle of the mat?
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:16 AM   #31
Nacho
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
c'mon Erik i'll take you on the cultural tour of Petaluma. if i can find it!

no, Ignacio, i did not realise you are Argentinian. I do know that when i go to a milonga i like to dance with the old street dancers...
The thing is I was not laughing at the street dancers. I was flattering them, they are great, I was laughing about this forums that always ends in a "street effective" debate.
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:05 AM   #32
Qatana
 
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yes, i do agree.

Also most people don't know that Tango is a martial art...or used to be...

Erik my dojo is in a ballet studio, used to be at the Kempo dojo but i never trained there.

Culture? we got two sushi bars now...

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:48 AM   #33
opherdonchin
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Quote:
Also most people don't know that Tango is a martial art...or used to be...
I didn't know that, either. It's interesting that someone would bother to develop a martial art in which one always partnered with a member of the opposite sex. Speaking of 'street effective' ...

Anyway, Jo did you get my personal note about Contact?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-21-2003, 12:14 PM   #34
Qatana
 
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Yes i got it.Thanks.

AFAIK re tango-originally it was a martial art, developed from soccer, and was done by men only.However there was something like a 15-1 male-female ratio in Argentina in the beginning of the 20th century and somebody realized that if they turned it into a dance at least they would have the opportunity to get within arms reach of a woman.

So originally it was more like grappling with kicks.Find the "partner's" center and manipulate his balance with your center while trying to trip each other.]

Any wonder i want to combine the two??

I'm sure Ignacio will know better than i regarding the historical accuracy of this.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:31 PM   #35
Erik
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Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
Erik my dojo is in a ballet studio, used to be at the Kempo dojo but i never trained there.
I heard a rumor that there are something like 5 aikido dojos in Petaluma and something like 9 in Santa Rosa. I'm too lazy to check the dojo search so are those numbers even kind of right?
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Old 07-21-2003, 02:38 PM   #36
Qatana
 
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AFAIK in Petaluma are my dojo-Aikido of Petaluma, Bob Noha,Sensei( 37 year student of Robert Nadeau)

and Two Rock Dojo, Richard Heckler, Sensei.

There are a couple Karate, some TKD, some JKD, traditional European fencing....

i know there are several in Santa Rosa but nothing about them. One in Rohnert Park. One in Sonoma, my dojo went on a field trip there last week. hmmm, one in Sebastopol, one in Graton. Just off the top of my head...

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-21-2003, 03:44 PM   #37
Erik
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The post thing was at Centerfield now that I think about it. You know those little Northern California cities all look alike.
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Old 07-21-2003, 04:38 PM   #38
Qatana
 
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um Graton has two stores, two restaurants and a dojo.

We have sushi and 2 dojos. Thats the difference between the 2nd biggest city & the smallest in the county.

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:00 PM   #39
Nacho
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
AFAIK re tango-originally it was a martial art, developed from soccer, and was done by men only.However there was something like a 15-1 male-female ratio in Argentina in the beginning of the 20th century and somebody realized that if they turned it into a dance at least they would have the opportunity to get within arms reach of a woman.

So originally it was more like grappling with kicks.Find the "partner's" center and manipulate his balance with your center while trying to trip each other.]

Any wonder i want to combine the two??

I'm sure Ignacio will know better than i regarding the historical accuracy of this
Sorry Jo I didn't know that, so I started looking for this story in some Tango web pages, and Tango history but I didn't find it. Anyway I can't relate the movements of Tango to a martial art because they are balanced to dance, but they are way off balanced to attack-defend.
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:12 PM   #40
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I heard the story from several of my teachers, no idea of the historical accuracy. Saw it portrayed in "dance" in the show "Forever Tango"

yes, now it is set up as a dance but that is because no one is trying to take the other's center but to "join" them. But i have seen men tango together and do exactly that, but they were polite enpough not to throw each other on the dance floor.

Still trying to figure out if ukemi is possible in high heels...

Q
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Old 07-22-2003, 02:30 PM   #41
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I commented this to my grandfather, he didn't know that either. You said that it was a martial art developed from soccer, but Tango is older than soccer here in Argentina.
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Old 07-22-2003, 02:52 PM   #42
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So then where do the kicks (ganchos,boleos) come from, or did they come After soccer came to Argentina?

Perhaps they all developed from each other?

Q
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Old 07-22-2003, 08:54 PM   #43
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I don't know, maybe they are all nothing but sensual movements... at the begging it was just for the lower social classes, dancing that and talking "lunfardo".

A kind of aproximation to martial art here I think, were the gauchos, they stablished competitions or duels, with a knife in one hand, and a lot of cloth around the other to use as a shield, that combats could be until the first mark (cut to the face) or to death

But in soccer you're not supposed to kick or sweep another one's leg
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Old 07-22-2003, 09:17 PM   #44
Qatana
 
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no you kick the Ball in soccer. look at a gancho-you are kicking the ball behind you and to the side.a boleo can get the ball from behind you to in front of you. an umagi kicks the ball to a teammate behind you.

translate to two men grappling, then they become leg sweeps.

translate to dance, they become sensuous movement.

i Studied Tango.this is information given by teachers from Argentina.maybe they don't know their own history?

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-23-2003, 08:58 PM   #45
Nacho
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Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
no you kick the Ball in soccer. look at a gancho-you are kicking the ball behind you and to the side.a boleo can get the ball from behind you to in front of you. an umagi kicks the ball to a teammate behind you
Well... in any kind of dance if you put a ball at your feet you will end kicking it to some place..
Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
i Studied Tango.this is information given by teachers from Argentina.maybe they don't know their own history?
May be, I know people who know a lot about Tango and they never heard that story.

The japanese guy from the laundry shop does not necessary know aikido for being japanese.
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Old 07-23-2003, 09:23 PM   #46
Qatana
 
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"The japanese guy from the laundry shop does not necessary know aikido for being japanese."

so how does being from Argentina make you the expert? by this reasoning the Japanese guy ought to know more about aikido than my American -born Sensei even though he's been studying aikido for 37 years?

do you actually Dance Tango? or did you just ask someone you know?are they professional Tango teachers or dance historians?

my teachers can probably all trace their lineage back to the streets, as well as i can trace my lineage back to O'Sensei.

I really don't think they made up an interesting story just to sell more dance classes....

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-23-2003, 10:54 PM   #47
Nacho
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Jo, I'm not saying I'm the expert. Look at my post, I said "may be".

I would like to know the sources of this version of the history of Tango, I know your Teachers are your source, but where did they read it, or heard, etc.

Don't feel deffensive i've never heard that story and some people who know a lot about Tango didn't either, so it's normal I'm asking skeptical about it.
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Old 07-24-2003, 08:42 AM   #48
Qatana
 
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well i did start this out by saying "As Far As I Know"

you have heard things, i have heard things.i may have some time to do this research. I may not...if i do, i'll send along the information.

Q
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Old 07-24-2003, 11:24 AM   #49
Qatana
 
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ok here's what i've found-

Tango as "martial art"- because there were so few women in Argentina at all, the only way to get near one was to be a really good dancer. The only way to get good was to practice (funny,that) and who was there to practice with? Other men. So while they were waiting on line in the bordellos, or hanging out in the street, there was usually a Tango orquestra playing so the men would dance. This became a kind of competiton because of course the women would choose their partners by how well their dancing looked.So it was more of a "competitive"art then "martial".Some have even said that the only "true" Tango was danced between men, dancing with a woman was, as stated, to get physically near one at all...

regarding steps being soccer moves, seems i may have gotten it backwards.this from a TaNgo author in Buenos Aires:

"Young dancers today use names for some moves which they

have taken from football one way or another. I've never heard an

older dancer use them though.'

This i think refers to people who started dancing tango in the 40s as "older" and who started post 60s as "younger"

i think we need to remain both open minded and sceptical about the "true" history of Tango.And i still think Tango & Aikido would blend beautifully....

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 07-24-2003, 03:00 PM   #50
Nacho
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Well Jo I'm glad this discussion here is becoming constructive.
Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
So it was more of a "competitive"art then "martial".
But I disagree here, I don't see how competitive makes it martial, they are two very different concepts

Quote:
Jo Adell (Qatana) wrote:
And i still think Tango & Aikido would blend beautifully....
I think it's important to blend in each one's self every thing we do, martial arts, sports, dancing, writing, etc. If you want to blend Aikido and Tango it's great then, that defines you and your personality.. that's the most interesting part of all of this.
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