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Old 07-30-2003, 06:53 PM   #1
Phillip Armel
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Do symbol How come aikido isn't used in competions?

Hmm, I've wondered this. I never seen anyone use any aikido in any sort of popular fighting sport. The closest thing I've seen is some ninjitsu done by some black guy(I don't know his name and I say that because of a lack for a better term). Does anyone know why? I know it's not because it's too weak or anything like that. I do understand the spiritual aspect and it kinda goes against that, but still I'm curious.
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Old 07-30-2003, 07:06 PM   #2
shihonage
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Well probably because Aikido is based on the fact that one of the people involved in the situation really really doesn't want to fight.
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Old 07-30-2003, 07:13 PM   #3
Phillip Armel
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True lol, but I know of some AWFULLY sadistic aikidoka :-/
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Old 07-30-2003, 09:36 PM   #4
PhilJ
 
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Why participate when you risk little to yourself to be a spectator?

I think it's difficult to discuss this without getting into fighting vs. not-fighting exchanges.

I can only tell you why I don't -- I don't seek out getting beaten into a pulp nor do I want to get in front of the moving train just to see if my stuff works.

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
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Old 07-30-2003, 11:54 PM   #5
harstr
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The following teachings of O-Sensei speak for themselves I think:

t is important not to be concerned with thoughts of victory and defeat. Rather, you should let the ki of your thoughts and feelings blend with the Universal.

Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other as though everyone were one family. The secret of aikido is to make yourself become one with the universe and to go along with its natural movements. One who has attained this secret holds the universe in him/herself and can say, "I am the universe."

If anyone tries to fight me, it means that s/he is going to break harmony with the universe, because I am the universe. At the instant when s/he conceives the desire to fight with me, s/he is defeated.

Nonresistance is one of the principles of aikido. Because there is no resistance, you have won before even starting. People whose minds are evil or who enjoy fighting are defeated without a fight.
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Old 07-31-2003, 04:54 AM   #6
tedehara
 
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We did have a guy take classes for about 3 months. When I asked him why he started, he mentioned that he had been beaten out of a mixed-styles tournament by someone who used aikido against him.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
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Old 07-31-2003, 05:08 AM   #7
bob_stra
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Re: How come aikido isn't used in competions?

Quote:
Phillip Armel wrote:
Hmm, I've wondered this. I never seen anyone use any aikido in any sort of popular fighting sport.
Hey, I'm standing *RIGHT HERE*

Just last night I tried to use some Suwariwaza when I missed a double leg. (without much success I might add. Meh, it keeps me amused)

I also use it to beat up on small children. Much to Aleksey's delight.

I will say this however. The bokken stuff works straight out of the bag against resisting opponents (well, noodle wielding pre teen maniacs). Not sure why. Simpler footwork?
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Old 07-31-2003, 05:22 AM   #8
PeterR
 
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One word - Tomiki.

I've personally used what I learnt in Aikido dojos in Judo shiai and have no problem seeing Aikido principles when I watch other fighters. I used the same principles when I did Nippon Kempo although at the time I didn't know it.

If you mean pretty Aikido waza - sorry but it will rarely be that clear. You have to look a little deeper.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-31-2003, 07:13 AM   #9
Paula Lydon
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~~Some years ago a couple of the Denver Broncos were training in Aikido to inhance their movement and ability to pass through a crowd without being tackled

~~Paula~~
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Old 07-31-2003, 07:39 AM   #10
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
~~Some years ago a couple of the Denver Broncos were training in Aikido to inhance their movement and ability to pass through a crowd without being tackled
Did it work?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-31-2003, 07:51 AM   #11
jxa127
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Well...

O'Sensei's admonitions aside, I thought about entering a local tournament here in Harrisburg, but a close look at the rules indicated that a lot of the things I'd do would be illegal.

Regards,

-Drew

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Old 07-31-2003, 08:45 AM   #12
Carl Simard
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
If you mean pretty Aikido waza - sorry but it will rarely be that clear. You have to look a little deeper.
You certainly have a good point here. And it's not only for aikido but for any MA.

Take judo for example. In a judo competion, it will be somewhat rare to see a perfect technique being applied. Most of the time, it will be a half-missed one, that may or not look like when done in training... But even these half-missed technique can be effective.

It's probably the same thing for aikido technique. Haven't seen any Tomiki competion, but is it the same thing ? In short, you do your best but the pretty and perfect technical execution don't happen very often in competition situation ?
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Old 07-31-2003, 08:52 AM   #13
paw
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Quote:
Some years ago a couple of the Denver Broncos were training in Aikido to inhance their movement and ability to pass through a crowd without being tackled
Peter is far too nice. Just look at the "deadly" arts that have been taught to the US Navy SEALs --- a good number of which are rubish (SCARS anyone?)

Because something is taught to an "special" group doesn't make it effective, particularly for the context. Could aikido improve football players ability to run through crowds? Possibly. But it would be more effective to devise plays so that there weren't crowds of people to run through. Or to improve the individual athlete's physical capabilities so the athlete is simply too fast, too quick or too strong. Both tasks (planning plays and physical conditioning) that a football team has to do anyway.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 07-31-2003, 09:15 AM   #14
Cyrijl
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1-many are afraid because they don't train realistically

2-pure aikido would be at a distinct disadvantage in a MMA event. Just as pure boxing, kung fu, etc. would be at a disadvantage.

3-many place the art over the martial

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
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Old 07-31-2003, 09:18 AM   #15
Dave Miller
 
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I have often pondered entering some local karate tournament, dusting off my old Shorin ryu kata, and competing in both kata and fighting. But in the fighting competition, rather than using Shorin ryu, using Atemi waza. If it's just "point karate," then good, firm atemi should score points. I don't see any reason why a person couldn't be effective in that sort of situation. Just get off the line of attack and/or redirect the attack and counter with atemi.

What do you think, Peter?

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 07-31-2003, 10:49 AM   #16
thisisnotreal
 
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rules

Hi.

In furthurance to what Drew said about the 'rules'....

I'm not sure if it was at this site, or another, but some guy (claiming to be Jason DeLuca..I recognized it from the UFC series) said exactly the same thing.

So, from what i remember;

as far as no-holds-barred tourneys go, these days anyways, it is in name only. They do bar moves: Head and neck manipulation and small joint manipulations were illegal.

so..this seems to eliminate a wide range of aiki waza.
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Old 07-31-2003, 10:53 AM   #17
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Carl Simard wrote:
In short, you do your best but the pretty and perfect technical execution don't happen very often in competition situation ?
That's about right but when it does happen its gorgeous.

Paul - I think observing one or two classes of Aikido to see if there is anything unique in the avoidance movements and then devise drills for the football setting might confer an advantage. Aikido training per se would not. I remember an old old movie (it might have been black and white) where Notre Damme had a few of its players take ballet lessons to improve their coordination as a group. Very cute as the opposing teams jaws dropped.

On that note we switch to Dave. The only way to get good at a particular sport is to do lots of it. Its a major reason my randori is so poor - I should do more. In fact the main reason I do Judo is to do more randori. However, more to the point I entered a sumo contest in Tsukuba Japan and figured with my indepth Aikdio training (at that point one years worth) I would have a distinct advantage. Moving off-line, atemi waza, etc. Wrong. I won only one out of three and I suspect that was only due to the person laughing so hard at my skinny ass in a mawashi (there are pictures but they are hidden deep in secret archives).

Sumo was actually pretty interesting - alot of those that do it are not that big just very strong. We went down to Tokyo to train with a group and I was tossed by a college champion (easily), lasted three minutes with a guy that had my build but muscles like ropes, and put a friend in hospital with a bruised liver. He landed on the doyo rope, I landed on top and the next day his back was black.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-31-2003, 11:18 AM   #18
paw
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Peter,
Quote:
I think observing one or two classes of Aikido to see if there is anything unique in the avoidance movements and then devise drills for the football setting might confer an advantage. Aikido training per se would not.
Exactly!

The question is then, are the players learning aikido? The players would not learn a single traditional aikido attack, no aikido terminology, not wear gi or hakama, not learn ukemi, wouldn't bow in or out at the start.... Bottom line, none of the football players would be able to pass the lowest rank exam. Because of these reasons, I would say the football players aren't learning aikido any more than I would look at a group of basketball players jogging and declare that they are learning track and field.

Josh,
Quote:
They do bar moves: Head and neck manipulation and small joint manipulations were illegal.
There are no uniform MMA rules, rules are event dependent. However, I'm not aware of any organization (UFC, Pride, Extreme Challenge, King of the Cage....) that doesn't define "small joint" to mean 3 or fewer fingers or toes. As for head and neck manipulation, chokes and neck cranks are allowed, so I can't think of any aikido technique that would be excluded.

Joseph's reasons ring most true to me thus far.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 07-31-2003, 12:04 PM   #19
opherdonchin
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Quote:
The only way to get good at a particular sport is to do lots of it.
I certainly won't argue with that, but it's a long way from that to the claim that learning other sports is useless for learning your own sport. Since overtraining is often a serious issue for all sorts of athletes, finding alternative physical activity that improves your performance but also allows recuperation seems important.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 07-31-2003, 12:17 PM   #20
Erik
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Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
~~Some years ago a couple of the Denver Broncos were training in Aikido to inhance their movement and ability to pass through a crowd without being tackled
Martial Arts training got really big a few years back when the Rams won the superbowl. I forget the guys name but he's a striker so pretty soon everybody was studying the martial arts. I know the 49ers have a TKD guy on staff. I think it's one of those bad correlations that people make. The guy may have made a difference but it was probably pretty small. But you know how it goes, if they do it, you gotta do it to keep up with Jones or Rams in this case.
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Old 07-31-2003, 12:30 PM   #21
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I think the big reason is fear, people dont train realistically and all too often they invoke some O'Sensei quote to justify being lazy or cowardly.

It is my duty as a martial artist to train my martial art as martially as I can so that I can one day practice it as art. I dont think it works the other way around.

At your next class, why not get a dojo buddy to attack you in a realistic and spirited manner, leading his attacks where you move so that you can get the timing right and making decent though non damaging contact when your timing is not right. Hopefully this is realistic enough to break some misconceptions about "fighting" while at the same time being non competitive enough to satisfy your need to follow the teachings of a man who was in his younger days pretty much a hotheaded scrapper.
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Old 07-31-2003, 12:41 PM   #22
Erik
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
I forget the guys name
Earnest Hart Jr.
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Old 07-31-2003, 01:00 PM   #23
jxa127
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Okay, I'm not taking personally the comments about being scared or using O' Sensei to rationalize not competing, but here's a link to the tournament I was thinking of entering. Download the rules, and then let's talk about how aikido could be used:

http://www.joergskarate.com/breath.htm

The last time I looked at the rules, I thought that a lot of how I'd react was prohibited. But, maybe there's something I missed.

Regards,

-Drew

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-Drew Ames
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Old 07-31-2003, 01:16 PM   #24
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
but it's a long way from that to the claim that learning other sports is useless for learning your own sport.
Who said that - certainly not I. I specifically do Judo to improve my Aikido.

I just don't think that the bulk of Aikido training is that useful for football and the part that may be is best quickly adapted and taken out onto the practice field.

I will say that professional sports training does not involve just playing the sport but lots of other physical training in the form of drills, weight lifting, etc. Some are designed to enhance certain skills, some condition certain muscles, and others just even out the body. I know one semi-professional tennis player that does certain weight lifting exercises with his left arm only to even out the size of his forearms. I can easily see as part of some training scheme that an athlete is required to let's say swim a few laps - I mean they do it to race horses don't they - but that really is in context of training rather than sport.

A professional athlete will concentrate on one maybe two sports - in Canada we have some great winter/summer switchers. When they are not training for their chosen sport(s), they are resting.

A good athlete will most likely be competent in a number of sports and probably varies them for pleasure rather than any idea of enhancing them all.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-31-2003, 01:20 PM   #25
paw
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Drew,
Quote:
The last time I looked at the rules, I thought that a lot of how I'd react was prohibited. But, maybe there's something I missed.
Looks like a standard point-fighting tournament. It's heavily striking based.

Out of curiosity, why were you thinking of entering?

Regards,

Paul
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