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Old 07-20-2003, 12:19 AM   #1
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
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weapons retention

~~There is much practice in Aikido involving weapons take-aways, but I haven't come across anyone practicing weapons retention as yet. I like this practice myself because it keeps me in mind of the link between kenjutsu and taijutsu, as it's been explained to me that O Sensei derived Aikido movement from sword work. I would be very interested in hearing other's views on this topic.




~~Paula~~
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Old 07-20-2003, 01:03 AM   #2
Bronson
 
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Does jo-nage count or are you talking specifically about bokken?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 07-20-2003, 03:35 AM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: weapons retention

Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
~~There is much practice in Aikido involving weapons take-aways, but I haven't come across anyone practicing weapons retention as yet.

Hi, Paula. Not sure what exactly you are asking....where I used to train we probably did jo-nage and bokken-nage as often as weapons-taking; at least I assume that's what you mean (nage starts with the weapon, uke grabs the weapon, nage executes technique with the weapon).

In terms of focus and ma'ai, for me paired weapons practice is more valuable than either of the other 2 options. But, yes, I do see what you mean about it demonstrating links between weapons and open hand, and heck, weapons is just plain fun!

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 07-21-2003, 04:19 AM   #4
justinm
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We very rarely train with weapons at all, in fact it is more than 6 months I think, since the last time. I think this is because it is very rare in Yoshinkan aikido.

Interestingly, I once asked Amos Parker Shihan about this, and he agreed weapons work was not normal in Yoshinkan. His explanation was that weapons practice in aikido was primarily about finding and working through your centre, however Yoshinkan uses the kihon dosa to learn this. My impression, although he did not state this, was that he did not think weapons training in aikido was really about learning to use the weapons effectively but more about improving your aikido. Something I often hear from those that explicitly study weapons systems as well.

Justin McCarthy
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:13 AM   #5
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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I have been taught that nikkyo against a cross hand grab was originally done to simulate someone trying to prevent you from drawing your sword. There is a clip of Saotome Sensei demonstrating this on the Principles of Aikido video. At a recent seminar, Elliot Freeman taught the technique as a gun retention using replica/training guns.

(Paula, that was a very nice article in ATM)

Charles
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:59 AM   #6
Carl Simard
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Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
I have been taught that nikkyo against a cross hand grab was originally done to simulate someone trying to prevent you from drawing your sword.
It's also what we have been taught. We also practise it from time to time. Much more painful and efficient than a bare handed nikkyo...

In fact most, if not all, techniques derived from weapons work. It's one of the reasons to train with weapons: you see the origin of the techniques and attacks.
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:22 PM   #7
Janet Rosen
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A thought I had late at night after my original reply: when we practiced jo-nage or bokken-nage, we very rarely did common empty hand techniques. This is very different from weapons-taking, where kotegaishe, shihonage, gokyo, etc are often used. More common to get off the line or tenkan, taking balance and throwing (though I do remember a seminar with a really wonderfully wicked nikkyo all the way to the mat....). So I'm curious: for those who do this training regularly, and who see it as a connection with empty hands practice, do you in fact do empty hand technique with the weapon?

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:55 PM   #8
Mel Barker
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For any technique you do a kokyunage from a grab, put a tanto in your hand, do the technique. Uke falls,weapon retained.

Thanks, I'm late.

Mel Barker
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Old 07-21-2003, 02:06 PM   #9
Carl Simard
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Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
So I'm curious: for those who do this training regularly, and who see it as a connection with empty hands practice, do you in fact do empty hand technique with the weapon?
Yes we do. For example, you have your bokken, an opponent grab your wrists, and you do shionage, slicing the opponent when he's falling... A bit harder than bare handed, since even a slight uncentering, unnoticeable when bare handed, will make the bokken go anywhere but straight in front of you. The common mistake of putting the hands too far behind you is also much more dramatic since you may slice your back or cut your own head with your bokken... So, you have no other choices but put your hands at the right place to do a shionage with a bokken in your hands... Very instructive and certainly helps you improve your bare hands technique.

Other techniques we do from time to time include ikkyo (jo vs jo), nikkyo, ushiro (you try to draw the bokken at your opponent do ushiro to prevent you), irimi (it's your bokken that goes to the neck instead of your arm). We also have done sankyo one time, but I only remeber it was very difficult to do...

Last edited by Carl Simard : 07-21-2003 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 07-21-2003, 02:26 PM   #10
Carl Simard
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Quote:
Mel Barker wrote:
For any technique you do a kokyunage from a grab, put a tanto in your hand, do the technique. Uke falls,weapon retained.
Not only with tanto, it's also true with a bokken or jo...
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Old 07-21-2003, 02:44 PM   #11
Paula Lydon
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~~I was told recently that many of the techs/movement used in weapons retention were to position yourself to deliver a quick cut with even a partially drawn sword/knife. And quick flow from control to cut. So far I haven't found an empty-hand tech that doesn't work in this practice. I do find that training with a blade (live only for single's practice) helps me remain focused and knowing I need a decisive cut keeps me from becomming sloppy concerning posture and movement, or at least it's obvious when I am

~~Paula~~
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Old 07-21-2003, 03:58 PM   #12
Janet Rosen
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Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
I do find that training with a blade (live only for single's practice) helps me remain focused and knowing I need a decisive cut keeps me from becomming sloppy concerning posture and movement, or at least it's obvious when I am
Yes, the focus and precision are the things I really enjoy both in weapons taking and "retention".

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-21-2003, 04:55 PM   #13
SeiserL
 
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Agreed, not much weapons retention taught. There was a demo last year by Sure Fire at the Aiki Expo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-21-2003, 05:50 PM   #14
zachbiesanz
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For a good book on the link between empty-handed and weapons techniques, check out Gaku Homma's The Structure of Aikido vol. 1 (and probably volumes 2 and 3, when they finally are published..)

Aikido is the art of hitting an assailant with the planet.
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Old 07-21-2003, 06:38 PM   #15
Paula Lydon
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~~Lynn, not familiar with Sure Fire...?

~~Paula~~
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Old 07-22-2003, 02:54 AM   #16
Adrian Smith
 
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Could someone clarify for me what's meant by 'weapons retention', please? If it means hanging onto your weapon versus allowing your opponent to take it away from you, there's a nidan in our dojo who's currently preparing for his sandan test (next month). He's told me that part of his test involves him retaining his weapon rather than surrendering it...

-Adrian
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Old 07-22-2003, 06:29 PM   #17
Paula Lydon
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~~That's it Adrian. Most schools seem to focus on taking a weapon away from an attacker, not having the weapon yourself and retaining it from someone trying to get it. What art/style do you train in? Sounds interesting!

~~Paula~~
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Old 07-25-2003, 01:12 AM   #18
Bronson
 
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Jo-nage is a required part of the shodan tests in Seidokan. I can't remember right now if tachi-nage is but I don't think so. We have a few standard jo-nage that we do but I was playing around one day with our first jo kata and found that I could turn every movement into a throw or lock of some kind. I haven't had the chance to go through the other jo or bokken kata yet, but I'm pretty sure I'd find the same thing.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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