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Old 11-21-2000, 09:19 PM   #1
les paul
Location: michigan
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Just wondering how many people belong to a dojo that explores ground work (not the regular immobilizations like ikkyo, but stuff like the guard and the mount) Our dojo explores this kind of stuff and I find it really complements Aikido.

Budo is Budo nothing more..... nothing less......

Paul Calugaru
Michigan
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Old 11-21-2000, 11:57 PM   #2
Chuck Clark
 
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Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
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Students of Jiyushinkai study newaza (groundwork) along with tachiwaza. The principles of posture, movement, distance, targeting, and timing are the same. Our newaza is very similar to Kodokan judo newaza but with joint locks, etc. that are outlawed for sport activity in judo. It can be very nasty (and lots of fun!).


Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 11-22-2000, 08:34 AM   #3
Guest5678
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Hello Clark sensei

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Students of Jiyushinkai study newaza (groundwork) along with tachiwaza. The principles of posture, movement, distance, targeting, and timing are the same. Our newaza is very similar to Kodokan judo newaza but with joint locks, etc. that are outlawed for sport activity in judo. It can be very nasty (and lots of fun!).

Clark sensei,

Ahh.....very nasty and fun.... music to my ears! Hope you had an uneventful trip home. Really enjoyed the seminar!! Captured a couple really good views from it. Please let me know when you'll be back down.....

Back on topic now. Along with newaza, Hooker sensei made many a Monday night an advanced study of take downs and submission holds. Man I love that kind of work. It makes a lot of sense considering thats where most "encounters" end up anyway. "Exploring groundwork" isn't what I'd call it though, whew......

As an aside, speaking of ground work, my wrestling coach in Nebraska put a sign up on the ceiling of the Gym facing downward that said "If you can read this sign, you are in big trouble" I always thought that to be quite amusing. You'll also notice I remember, quite vividly, what it said, how large it was, the color of ink........ yea, we all have to start somewhere!

Have a great turkey day and try to eat way too much!

Dan P. - Mongo

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Old 11-22-2000, 09:36 AM   #4
Chuck Clark
 
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Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
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Hi Dan,

Have a Safe and Happy Holiday Season!!

Aaron and I had a great time with you folks and look forward to more interaction. Don't forget, if you're in our area...stop in and we'll take turns "being on the bottom!!"

Later,


Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 11-22-2000, 09:44 AM   #5
Aiki1
 
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Dojo: ACE Aikido
Location: Los Angeles
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I think the study of groundwork as related to Aikido is a tricky subject. On the one hand, if someone isn't familiar with it and is caught on the ground, especially by someone who knows what they're doing (although anyone will do) then they can be in big trouble.

On the other hand, if one studies groundwork for "use in Aikido" and gets hung up on submissions and/or "groundfighting" they run the big risk of getting caught up in that scenario and therefore loosing sight of the "bigger picture of Aikido."

I think one positive way to approach this is to gear the practice towards specifically learning how to escape from the ground situation if you Are caught there. This allows one to not get hung up in fighting from the ground, and I believe keeps things in line with a more Aikido perspective. That way, one is not learning how to "win from the ground" but how to get away .

Larry Novick
Head Instructor
ACE Aikido
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Old 11-25-2000, 05:06 PM   #6
Guest5678
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Quote:
Aiki1 wrote:
I think the study of groundwork as related to Aikido is a tricky subject. On the one hand, if someone isn't familiar with it and is caught on the ground, especially by someone who knows what they're doing (although anyone will do) then they can be in big trouble.

On the other hand, if one studies groundwork for "use in Aikido" and gets hung up on submissions and/or "groundfighting" they run the big risk of getting caught up in that scenario and therefore loosing sight of the "bigger picture of Aikido."

I think one positive way to approach this is to gear the practice towards specifically learning how to escape from the ground situation if you Are caught there. This allows one to not get hung up in fighting from the ground, and I believe keeps things in line with a more Aikido perspective. That way, one is not learning how to "win from the ground" but how to get away .
Personally, I think people get way too hung up with the "think within the box" type attitude when practicing techniques. Anything "outside" the norm, like ground fighting, seems to freak some people out. I say hey, it Aikido whether it's on the ground or standing up.

Of course some people don't believe poking an attacker in the eye is Aikido either........
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Old 11-26-2000, 01:00 PM   #7
les paul
Location: michigan
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The reason I started this post was some of us are highly into ground fighting and some of us are not. From doing randori I personnally found there are some cases where one will need to fight on the ground. I think common ground fighting strategy should change to suit the aikidoka needs. For example, the technique of shooting is in my opinion very "un-Aikido like" and should be practiced but not stressed. Most gound fighting techniques can be classified as some sort of an Aikido immobilization. ("What you can do standing or sitting on your knees you can do on the ground mounted over an opponent") I look at my ground fighting skills as my back up plan. One could slip or fall when performing tenkan or irimi due to hazardous conditions outside the dojo. I believe there is no reason why Aikidoka shouldn't be expoloring ground fighting.

Groud fighting is a plus in Aikido. Aikidoka have a different sense of distance or ma-ai than most other martial art practioners. I have found that the more skilled the Aikidoka, the harder it is take the fight to ground. ("they are slippery and elusive like a greased pig") In past experiences I found this not to be true of other martial art styles. Other style like Karate tend to engage within striking range making them easly grabbed etc..

Am I trying to say that ground fighting is all that and a bag of chips. No, because I wouldn't recomend a woman to grapple her way out of a rape situation, or for someone to attempt to grapple a gange member while his posse looks on.....(definitely Aikido is the best plan of action in both cases)

Because I explore ground fighting, someday I believe that I'll be elusive as a greased pig and if an opponent actually catches me then my back up plan will kick in.

Translation.... My skill and knowledge in ground fighting is boosting my trust and reliance in my Aikido.



Budo is Budo nothing more..... nothing less......

Paul Calugaru
Michigan
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Old 11-26-2000, 04:43 PM   #8
aikilouis
Location: Germany
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France
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It's true Aikido does not stress ground techniques. I believe there are three main situations to use them in a fight :
1- The opponent is down, you are standing ;
2- You have been downed (the opponent is standing or not) ;
3- You are being downed by the opponent.
I propose the foolowing answers :
1- If he is down, leave him down !
2- Try to know how it happenned and prevent this situation to occcur again.
3- Ukemi have a component of escape (falling away from the opponent)
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Old 11-27-2000, 12:06 AM   #9
Chuck Clark
 
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Dojo: Jiyushinkan
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Anything that works can be "aiki"...

how you live and treat other beings
determines whether it's aikido.


Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 11-30-2000, 03:25 PM   #10
tarik
 
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Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Anything that works can be "aiki"...

how you live and treat other beings
determines whether it's aikido.

AMEN!

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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